Tom Livanos Online

46 Single Male from Sydney       140
 
Welcome

* I see chatrooms as the cutting edge of communications technology. I have a soft spot for communications and transport. I am thankful to be living at a time when I can participate.

* I am a thankful person. I have my five senses, four limbs, faculties, health etc. I have water piped to my kitchen, bathroom and laundry, access to a wide variety of foods, access to a wide variety of clothes, housing, a bed with a mattress that I picked out.....

* It is this gratitude which forms the foundation of my passion in life: sustainability. It is what makes most sense to me. If we are not sustainable, what is the point of anything else? All the politics, all the consumption, all the business, all the learning... For it to have any purpose, we must - at the very least - be sustainable. It is the continuation of the human story from our ancestors to us to our descendants.

* It is not why I am here but I am open to conversations about me personally. Fair is fair though. If you want to know about me then be prepared to share of yourself.

* Addition (9 December 2019). I believe we are able to have full employment. Okay, back a step. The etymology/origin of the word 'economy' is 'management of one's house'. If anyone wishes to write/speak of 'the world economy' then the house is planet Earth. So, let us learn about the Earth. Locals can do it best in each locality. This can be - and should be - our baseline employment. Furthermore, it is only then that any one of us could even begin to write/speak of operating a healthy economy.

* I have been using my offline name - on and off - for over 30 years of chatting to people. Nothing untoward has ever happened to me. Why do it? We have been known by our names since.. well.. names came onto the scene. So the question is: why not do it? I am willing to put my name to what I say. Reader of these words: are you willing to do the same? If not why not? Perhaps something to think about. All good on my end.

Thank-you for reading.

Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
I have adapted the following from a message pressed onto the back of a semi-trailer I saw earlier today. A society of sheep gives rise, and further rise, and further... to a government of wolves. I figure it is as applicable here on Wireclub between the technological excluders (administrators, hosts, moderators etc.) and regular chatters (including myself) as anywhere.

Why do they do it? Are people's words on a screen such a threat to them? Again it is not something I have ever done. Ever. No matter how distasteful another chatter's words may be - and indeed have been. I do not excluded anyone. I may have a long time ago but no longer. I prefer to respond; definitely not have them removed - let alone "on my behalf"!

I can post all the quotes in the world. I can make all the arguments in the world too. I cannot control what anyone else does - and, one more time, nor do I want to. The question remains: why do excluders exclude other people? And why is this ability even written into the software which Wireclub runs on in the first place?
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aphilv
aphilv: "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins." And, in a more ethereal extension of that axiom, my right to speak freely ends where I am organizing, colluding, calling for harm to be done to you, and, or others
28 days ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos in reply to aphilv:
So what then is your remedy? Someone violates your 'end', limit, however one words it. The line is crossed. Organisation, collusion and calling for harm to be brought to me and/or to someone else and/or to others has taken place. What now? The violence is pre-empted with violence? What is the remedy? Words... and I agree they are nasty... these words are met with violence or physical restraint? If the latter then for how long? A lifetime? For the utterance of words? Those words, as yet, have not brought any harm to anyone - even if it is directed at a particular individual (and I have actually had it happen to me).

I have had people tell me to my face, "I'm going to f--k up your life". I remain alive and healthy. Indeed, aside from these words, nothing untoward happened. I have had things said to me which I hope are never uttered ever again - to me or to anyone else! It has brought unnecessary stress into this world, in this case via my elevated stress levels. That stated, and to return to your fist and nose illustration, no physical harm was committed against me.

I am open to your continuing this comments thread. I won't delete anything here. You see the point yet?

How about this? Emotions and thoughts precede words. One may silence someone from expressing themself. Gagging is one way to do this physically. Okay, yep, the gagged individual is physically prevented from uttering any syllable, much less a word, much less a sentence, much less organise, collude and/or call for harm to be brought to someone. Emotions and thoughts, however, they are not "silenced". What is to be done? Half the population 'stands over' the other half of the population in some policing manner? The police half are assigned the task of policing the other half in relation to what will be said? Not even this would be effective - even if 'the good ones' are perfectly selected. One would need a 1-to-1 ratio at a minimum - perhaps two "police" if the one being policed was of a large stature?

It is nasty to threaten someone. To have multiple people threaten someone is worse. I dislike it as much as the next person. What, however, is the remedy? It is impractical to silence any person's freedom of expression for their lifetime - no matter how stressful, anxiety inducing, hateful, inciting, anger fuelled, despicable, atrocious, incorrect, inaccurate, purposely deceitful, psychologically damaging etc. a person's words may be. I mean in order for those words to even be uttered, they must form within one's brain... they had to come from somewhere. That somewhere is internal to the person uttering the words - whoever that may be. Yes, the silencing only causes the person silenced to 'go to an ever deeper place' is one argument here. There is another: if you hear the threat then it enables the person/those threatened to have some idea of what the threatener is feeling, thinking, perhaps planning etc.

Then there is the question: who decides what is actually threatening and what is not?

On here, well, this is a forum of expression. Not only this but we are not even in close physical proximity to one another. That aside it is a website built on communication - the ability to communicate. This is its raison d'etre. Or, okay, how has moderation actually been used? I had a host tell me once that she hated me because my name was Tom. That is all. Nothing else. Her grandfather, whom she hated, had or has (cannot quite remember) the name Tom and now she hates everyone with the name Tom, myself included. My reply was: Hanks, Petty, Sawyer, Jones, Cruise, Thumb, Selleck, Hardy... could not be that bad. Someone else stepped in and said not a bad reply. Nope. Hate. I mean is this what we're on Wireclub for? All supported by lines of software code. Yes I do maintain that she still has the right to express her hate towards me. To actually hate me. Her emotions were/are her emotions. I raise it here to point out that she had this binary technological imbalance in her favour and against mine. One click and I am 'disappeared' from that chatroom. Who decides what is threatening? This is perhaps the message behind those imprinted words on that semi-trailer I saw earlier today. What it read was (as best as I recall), "A society of sheep breeds a government of wolves". Perhaps I am too literal but I did not like the word breeds.

Freedom of expression... [sigh]... such a bugger but the only "cure" for it seems to be more freedom of expression. An Associate Justice of the United States of America Supreme Court once said that. Louis Brandeis who held the position from 1916 to 1939. I acknowledge fellow chatter solittle for pointing this one out to me. Freedom of expression is also stated explicitly in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. See Article 19. It was adopted unanimously by the United Nations General Assembly in late 1948. It remains unanimous. In other words these debates about freedom of expression have already been had many times over - and recently in human history on a global scale. Freedom of expression has existed since the dawn of humanity - and is often pointed to in terms of what distinguishes us from other species. What... some computer programmer (who I appreciate.. do not get me wrong) is going to come along with some lines of software code and fight all that? I aint going to capitulate to it. Even if I wanted to, how could I? I am the only person in this entire world who is ever able to write for myself. This stays true no matter how many times I am technologically excluded. Same applies to you and to us all... even to the computer programmers of the world.

It plainly cannot be any other way.
28 days ago Report
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aphilv
aphilv: Much effort has been put into creating a strawman that I have nothing to do with. The conversation has gone way off the deep end prophesying where what I did not say would lead. While I admit I did not address how to address those who use their freedom of speech to advocate harm to others, neither has anyone else, unless not doing anything is the suggestion?
19 days ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
This one is 'Higher Love' (1986) by Steve Winwood featuring Chaka Khan
24 days ago Report Link
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
I find myself having written a substantial amount on here in the last couple of days. As per a previous occasion, it has been sparked by my being muted for 24 hours from #Australia Chat and now suspended from all chatrooms (I myself do not know how long this will last for). I have always maintained that I am grateful for the time in human history that I am/we are in. That it allows us to come together as easily as all this from all over the world. Centuries, if not millennia, of sacrificing and effort and development have brought us to this point in human communications. I am both humbled by it and thankful for it. This is the first thing I wish to say.

I move on to these technological exclusions. I begin with two points:

1. Each person is a human being (i.e. equal)
2. Technological exclusions (mutings, bootings, bannings from a chatroom, suspensions from all chatrooms etc.)... these are pieces of software code written into the program which established Wireclub (or any other chat site or site with comments, posts, messages etc.). Some people have access to these exclusions and most people do not have such access. This technological imbalance is binary. It is black-and-white.

This leads me to my third point: each moment in life is precious. For example, and as I have said to others being nasty to me or others on here, it will not return to any one of us. It simply won't. Not ever.

Therefore my view is that having these technological exclusions programmed into Wireclub - or any other chat site or website... it is unethical.

I again post the link to the Wireclub Team web page. It is https://www.wireclub.com/about/team --- I invite you to write to one of them (or more if you like) and request that we have freedom of expression here on Wireclub. I know what many would be thinking. What about trolls? May I address this?

First off chatrooms, forums, any place where communication takes place... these places - at their essence - exist to allow freedom of expression. Without it, nothing could take place within them. Freedom of expression... well... it is only when people are free to express what is in their heart and mind that people - and the community at large - may mature. Taking this away from people is a path to making them less responsible for themselves. It is difficult but, in the end, we must rely on our inner humanity (rather than pieces of software code) to mature.

Trolls need to realise for themselves - via actual human interaction - why trolling is toxic to the community or interpersonal dynamics that they themselves are participating in. Otherwise nothing really changes. Trolling persists despite the pieces of software code that sees trolls excluded. Questions also arise that 'troll' is just an easy label to pull out for anyone who is lazy. Human interactions, despite what is suggested en-masse in today's world is not about some contest of intelligence. If it is a test then it is a test of tolerance. This is not to excuse those who deliberately set out to insult or ostracise or tease other people. No. My point here is: no level of exclusion or software coding has stopped or will stop trolling.

I had a fellow chatter who spent years berating me (I did not reciprocate - and openly stated to him that I wouldn't). Lo and behold, however, he asked me for a truce. A week or two later his account was deleted by a Mod on here . It obviously impacted him the most. It also had an adverse impact on me. Finally I had something from him that we could move on from all the nastiness of the past. Then his account gets deleted. I was left in tact but I too lost. To this day (it happened some 15-16 months ago now)... to this day I do not know what ever came of him. Following the public chatting that takes place, all indications are that no-one else does either. I consider this a tragedy. I do not call anyone a troll because I find it counterproductive but he did fit the characteristics of "someone trolling Tom Livanos". Now though? We shall never know. I raise it now to illustrate that technological exclusions... yes by far they impact the person excluded the most... but they also impact everyone else. That is what human interactions are all about. If interacting in a kinda 'free for all environment' is not what we are doing here then what the heck are we doing here? Participating in some warped exercise in fascism?

When all is said and done... when all the dust has settled... we remain human beings. As such, at this most foundational level, we are equals. The technological exclusions are nothing more than lines of software code. Surely the former is bigger than the latter. That's all.

All my contact settings are set to open. No-one is blocked. You may also reply to me here on my Feed page.

I appreciate your time and attention in reading.

All the best,
Tom

3:41pm, Monday 4 July 2022
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bellasophiabb
bellasophiabb: Hi, what are you doing tonight?
1 month ago Report Link
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Hi bella,

It is rarely the case but at this time (key words), I have a sense that people are reading my Feed. Yesterday someone I have not chatted with commented on my recent posts (i.e. about my being muted then suspended). I need to show some emotional intelligence. I have no issue with you bella - you are "one of the good ones" on here. May I private you?

Cheers,
Tom
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bellasophiabb
bellasophiabb: I have been working, I just read this. Sure PC me.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
I remember the days of the internet when email accounts were separate from accounts to surf the world wide web
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Sliced Bread
Sliced Bread: To know on the telephone company's side, just ask the light and power company.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos in reply to Sliced Bread:
Fair call but a tad too involved for me - my initial comment was more just me reminiscing.
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Sliced Bread
Sliced Bread: Netscape was web boss for sure.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Hello all,

As per previous occasions, I write to document an experience that I have had on here. I state at the outset that I appreciate any time and attention given in reading.

I have been muted in #Australia Chat.

I have not been muted in other chatrooms.

One of the reasons I enter #Australia Chat is because I was born in Australia and have lived my entire life here. I do not know why I have been muted and it took a little time before I even realised that I had been.

None of this, including my writing of this here message, is… somehow… ‘pleasant’ to me; if anything I find it distasteful and unpleasant. I write here out of a sense of personal responsibility. In part, it includes my standing up for myself. It does, however, extend further.

I myself have defended freedom of expression on here i.e. for everyone. Including people that I disagree with. I expect disagreement amongst any group of people – I do not expect exclusions via a piece of software code. Let alone in a place which exists so that people are able to speak. Yet, my defending everyone’s freedom of expression has, in and of itself, brought its blowback, resistance, additional bullying, you name it...

… I may only return to the foundational point: I have not only stood up for freedom of expression for myself but for everyone. It is because I see people… you reader… as a good person. I include myself in this. Otherwise why even come here? We have our strengths, weaknesses, failings, abilities… we are each unique. That stated, when all is said and done and all the dust has settled (as the expression goes)... we remain human beings – and that comes with equality.

I have written to moderators and administrators on here. I have asked that the mute be removed. No reply. I invite each of you reading this to write to a moderator or administrator yourself. To support my request that I be re-included in #Australia Chat but, more broadly than that... to support freedom of expression. To stop us all from being booted, banned, muted, suspended, whatever other technological exclusions exist on here. Moderators are listed on the following web page – https://www.wireclub.com/about/team

Enough is enough!

I add one final thought. I have been on Wireclub for about five years this time around. I was also here for a few months in 2014. I have experienced a lot of what I term nastiness against me. Trolling. A play with my emotions. Deliberate and purposeful manipulation. I have copped it all and then some. I agree that many many people on this site have a lot of growing up to do.

Then I also think: although I have not insulted anyone or intentionally set out to put anyone down… let alone manipulate anyone emotionally… I have rubbed people up the wrong way. Likewise others have done this to me. Is this trolling?

I think not but even if it is, not even trolls are able to exclude people technologically – let alone with a veneer of legitimacy! In the meantime, and again, we remain equally human. This includes actual trolls, perceived trolls and people who do not troll anybody at any time. I know that I have not set out to troll anyone. Not in some intentional, premeditated manner.

As such, and I have said this multiple times in various places: when it comes right down to it, I prefer trolls or ‘trolls’ to moderators, hosts, administrators etc. At least the former are unable to exclude people in a binary technological manner. The foundational point remains: we remain equally human.

Okay it is of course up to you if you wish to write to those shown on https://www.wireclub.com/about/team ––––– to support me and/or freedom of expression. You have freedom of choice – and I would not want this any other way! Of course, I hope that I am supported. Also of course, I accept it if I am not.

It is merely a suggestion regarding what you may do in response to this post on my Feed. I do not want to write something like this without also giving an option as to what may be done about it. At least one. If you wish to do something else then, by all means – and more power to you!

I also welcome each and every reply that I receive – even if it is one “I’d rather not receive.” That is the whole point – we are here to communicate. It may not always be pleasant but we are still here to communicate. If you prefer to do so via email then my email address is tom.369@hotmail.com – please remember to tell me how you came by my email address.

Alternatively, my contact settings on Wireclub are set to open i.e. for both private chat windows and for Wireclub messages. Anyone and everyone may contact me and no-one is on my blocked list. It has been this way for years – and shall remain so.

I end this entry where I began it. Underneath it all, thank-you reader for your time and attention in reading me here, and happy chatting

All the best,
Tom

Time: 4:49pm Australian Eastern Standard Time
Day and date: Sunday 3 July 2022
My location: Sydney, Australia
1 month ago Report Link
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Farldos
Farldos: Sorry for your troubles, Tom. Many of your issues sound very familiar to me, and surely others too. Sadly, I've not found a lot of satisfaction, at such times, from the moderators. I hope your muting ends quickly and you can move on, mate. It's lousy to be excluded, especially when it is in many ways unfair.
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sigurrosuntitled1
sigurrosuntitled1: This is a big argument, you have two perspectives. one someone who is in the right and being communicative and two someone who is lashing out at others and being uncivil. For both scenarios I don't think it is fair to mute. The people who are lashing out should not be ignored, and that is the worst case scenario, those are the people who need to be heard the most because they can be a danger to themselves, and naturally we can help them with their issues, try to get to the bottom of their problems. A lot of those times those people are suffering, it could be a loss in the family, or severe depression, or anxiety, they are looking for attention and we need to give them that. Consistently blocking them is not a measure of what we need to help them. They need to be heard and to be scolded if necessary, not through the mute function but through others communicating with them. They can learn their lessons this way and not through being ignored. To me muting, being ignored, is the ignorant way of dealing with the issue. Let us be heard, we can help each other as an online community.
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Sheila55
Sheila55: Why were you muted ?
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stusydney got the Thumbs Up badge from Tom Livanos 1 month ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Everyone, their grandfather and his pet poodle seems to want to maximise their own intelligence. Maximum. There is no such thing as an IQ score which is too high. It is as if intelligence has become an end in itself. Rubbish. Intelligence is a tool. It is to be optimised, not maximised. Nor minimised for that matter. No matter what intelligence any one of us may have, or lack... we remain equally human.
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Sliced Bread
Sliced Bread: According to Plato, intelligence is wisdom; not a tool but rather that which wields the tool.
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: A high IQ score means nothing except you're good at IQ tests. There is no practical application to real life
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
I repeat that I am loathe to call anyone – let alone someone with courage to speak up – a psychopath. I distance myself entirely from that "assessment". I also distance myself from comparisons to the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust of the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s. I consider each claim to be absurd.

I think you, goonies01, are writing psychopath multiple times, anonymously, about someone you have not actually met... with reckless abandon. You seem to me to have appointed yourself as a psychiatrist/psychologist here. If coming to Wireclub to assign others with a mental illness is your thing then that is your thing. I know others do that on the internet as well and, alas, all the fricking time. I am not one for censorship, but I use my freedom of expression here to distance myself from that "diagnosis" of mental illness – especially when it is based on one, albeit oft-repeated, statement. Nay, I cut myself off from such a "diagnosis" or "assessment" or "label" or "put-down" or "analysis" or whatever one wants to call it. I am directing more attention to this claim since it is of a fellow chatter. That is immeasurably more personal, direct and ‘urgent’ than anything to do with the world today, or as it was in the 1930s and ‘40s.

The Holocaust of the Jews? I cut myself off from that "conclusion" or [insert word] as well. Are there signs of fascism here? I have seen some and even experienced it myself but, that stated solittle, you have not provided any supporting details. You even attached yourself to an example I saw in a 1993 movie.

Neither of you has really provided any detail to what you have said.

I am not reproducing my correspondence to decision makers in order to shine a light on any fascism taking place. Nor is it to promote psychopathy. I am here in the interests of my own openness and transparency. I am "hoping against hope" that that may inspire or motivate perhaps or even move someone... even if it is to the slightest degree... to communicate with decision makers in whichever jurisdiction(s) one finds oneself in.

In this regard, I can speak to your assertions of having my words trashed solittle.

I have been writing to decision makers since late 2009. ***I have received many replies.*** Some have aimed to challenge me, others have been short, polite and thanked me for sharing, others have been specific in what they are thanking me for. I have entered into back-and-forth email exchanges with politicians. A former local Member of Parliament called me on the telephone to share her appreciation for how detailed I was in the letter I had sent to her. I have met politicians face to face. One was after an appointment was made where I shared the information I wanted to share i.e. in person. Had a chat about it and he left with all the documentation I had prepared. I have met politicians "out and about" who know who I am when I introduce myself. They have always, without exception, been thankful for my communications. It does not mean they always agree with what is in those communications but I have never felt actively 'turned away' or ignored in these chance meetings – or at any other time. If anything, my experience is that the reverse is the case – they are warm and welcoming people. I have attended many local council meetings. The staff and councillors have always been accommodating and some have explicitly told me that they like receiving correspondence from people in the community.

I returned to this blog entry today (Sunday 6 March 2022) to post a message which I sent to the national parliament in Australia i.e. about 10 days ago. Most people on Wireclub say that I write too much. I dare say I have already written plenty in this here comment. I will therefore refrain from reproducing my correspondence to Australia's national parliamentarians. Instead I will leave it at what I have written above. Note: I wrote to the national parliamentarians in addition to the State parliamentarians (i.e. of New South Wales) because decisions have also been made at the national level affecting everyone with respect to coronavirus disease 2019 (covid-19).

To the ones who find me too lengthy: you're probably not reading by now but who knows... I refer you to my experience in contacting politicians above. You are out of step with those in Australian politics and/or their staff members. They read my writings – sometimes longer than my writings here on Wireclub – and are receptive to them. That is by everything that I actually have to go on. No-one has ever tried to hush me i.e. unlike my experience here on Wireclub. I theorise that such vast anonymity on here has something to do with it but, of course, I am not one to ever know for certain – it is up to each 'husher' as to what the motivation or facilitation/s is/are. All I may say is that hushing people is *not* a motivation I ever have – let alone on a communications site.

To anyone who wants to read what I have sent to Australia's national parliamentarians: let me know here or in private or by email. Why not --- I am at tom . 369 @ hotmail . com (remove the spaces). I will then forward it to you in the place you make the request of me.

I, as always, welcome each reply that I receive.

For whatever it may be worth (especially in the aforementioned circumstances), I appreciate reader your time and attention. Thank-you.

All the best,
Tom
5 months ago Report
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goonies01
goonies01: Once again,..did not bother to read past “loathe to call someone a psychopath.” Someone that compares covid restrictions and the vaccine to the Holocaust…their brain doesn’t work. So choose whatever word you’d like if you don’t like psychopath. Covid restrictions and vaccine passports are now lifted in my province.. and it seems a lot of places. So please, it is not nazi Germany.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos in reply to goonies01:
goonies01, to be clear, I am not preventing you from calling anyone a psychopath. That is your choice - something I respect with anyone i.e. including your good self. It is especially true on a forum of expression such as this one. Furthermore, unlike you, I read your posts in full. Make them as long or as short as you like. I assure you here and now that I do read them. If you do not wish to reciprocate and read my replies to you in full then, again, that is your choice - and I respect this choice as well.

To take "a step back" a moment: I myself find it a tad silly that anyone on here refuses to read what is sent to them. It is like saying something like "I am allowed to communicate with you but no-one is permitted to communicate with me unless it meets x or y condition" or, more simply, "I only accept replies if they meet my conditions". How, let alone in good conscience, is that a dialogue i.e. two-way communication? Anyway, this is my perception of it is all.

It is a practicality that each one of us makes our own choices in life. You lead your life, I lead my life, solittle leads his life, each person around this world lives their life. It cannot be any other way. You want to place conditions on me in terms of what I may write to you then, well, as much as I respect your choice in that i.e. not to read me further... I make a decision of my own. I decide that I'd prefer not to subject myself to your conditions - and certainly not about what I am permitted to say or not say. I was - and still am - loathe to call someone a psychopath. Even if I do find their expressions extreme.

Over to you. Again I am not preventing you from expressing yourself as you see fit. All that has happened here is that you have made a condition clear and I have made a decision as a result. You are still free to express yourself and I am free to do the exact same thing. At least, this is the situation on my end.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
This comment is for anyone who lives by using money (something I do myself). My purpose in writing this comment is to identify something... a global situation... which is operating to the detriment of us all i.e. those of us, myself included, who use money in order to live. It is to shine a metaphorical light on this, present day, situation. It is not the first time I have done such a thing. Therefore, based on my past experience, I add the following: if this shining a light on a present day problem is not something that you are interested in then I will save you the time and effort of reading and invite you to stop reading here. Right here. I do not want to waste your time, nor mine with whatever you may reply with. For everyone else, I thank you in advance for your time and attention.

Money is often explained as an evolutionary step developed by our ancestors to escape the limitations of a barter economy. I have some idea of how long ago that actually happened but that is not important for this comment. I get it. Instead of a direct exchange of goods and/or services, one receives money and can take that anywhere. Fair enough. All good so far.

What do we have in the present day world however? There is one thing we have which has not changed i.e. since the dawn of humanity. That is the physiological need to sleep. We need to sleep. I need sleep, you need sleep, sleep is a physiological need. The world, today, however, has elements such as financial destitution, homelessness, 'the invisibles' within society. In order to avoid this... well... one needs to pay. Or, perhaps, a parent needs to pay with regards to a newborn baby.

How is this in keeping with the line that money brought improvements to us as human beings? It may have have served our ancestors well for a period of time. Acknowledged two paragraphs above this one. Money today, however, has us - each and every last one of us - "behind the eight ball"... and right from the day we come into this world? How the frick is this an improvement? It is a regression.

I can hear the calls even before they are made: what is my alternative? What is an alternative? What is the alternative? Okay, I am not arguing that that is not a legitimate question. May I humbly and politely ask, however, is it not the case that money... as it operates in today's world... is holding us back? It is actually resulting in being a constraint on everyone's life. Everyone's. That that be pondered. Perhaps, in this pondering, one may even come up with an alternative. Or not. If not then why be asking me for an alternative? Merely because I have identified an inhibitor to us all living out our life in a calm and physiologically healthy manner? Whether I had identified it as such or not, it remains an inhibitor.

My purpose, as stated at the outset, is to simply identify the issue. It is not a situation I particularly like but, that is irrelevant right now: it is a situation which is playing out all around the human world. Having now done so, I welcome thoughts, views, anything else you wish to share (i.e. as reader).

That's all.

As always, I appreciate your time and attention in reading.

All the best,
Tom
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Manxiee
Manxiee in reply to Tom Livanos: u totally lost me we all using money
2 months ago Report
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aussiem8
aussiem8: Great read and point of view Tom. I agree with you in so many ways that having a currency other than trade has made things much more complicated and difficult for some. But then in all likelihood things would have been difficult for some in the times of trade too when they didn't have items or services that were up to par with others in their local community. They would have less to offer or trade with and therefore receive in return.

I'm not sure how to really solve this issue. But the one issue I see with money is that it allows people to store wealth to a much greater capacity than a barter/trade system ever would, and therefore we have created a world where there is so much disparity between those who have and those who have not. That for me is the real problem.
2 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
As a follow up to my post here: one of the key changes from money being developed to escape the limitations of barter to being an inhibitor to meeting one's physiological needs is that land may be owned. If planetary history is compacted to a 24-hour period then we humans first appeared at 2-3 seconds to midnight. Appeared. It is therefore absurd that we come along with our papers such as title deeds, money, bills of sale etc., exchange them amongst ourselves and somehow a person now owns land.

So, yeah, that is the next thing: money may be used to purchase land. Yet at no time since this artificial reality emerged has everyone in the world owned land. Not once since this reality emerged has everyone around the world owned land. This is one development that has moved money from being a liberator (away from the limitations of barter) to now being an enslavement i.e. where one needs it to do no more than meet one's physiological needs.

If one looks at the globe as a whole then one sees that this enslavement comes with some nasty realities. Or..... at least I see it since, in the end, each and every last one of us is a person with human needs e.g. access to food, access to water etc. It continues, for example, to boggle my mind that access to food has, for me, been a non-issue. All my life it has not been an issue. Yet for so many around the world it was or is the sole issue. Along with access to water, sleeping... all I can individually say on this one – at least right now – is that I realise how damn lucky I was to be born into the circumstances that I was born into.

That and that my heart cries out to those who were born into different circumstances – far more impoverished than my own. I believe there are some seriously deep and systemic issues underneath all this. This idea that money can be exchanged for land is one of them. It is not only absurd but it is cruel – on a global scale and from one generation to the next. In the meantime, the price tag attached to land continues on an upward trajectory. Decade after decade and century after century. One follows the 'we must all pay our way in life i.e. financially' to its logical conclusion and it requires new born babies to start life working, earning money so that they may afford a place to sleep.

There is no question that money... as it now exists... is an instrument of enslavement. We humans are enslaved by our own construct. I mean the cruelty extends to each and every last one of us who uses money – and indeed out to those who do not use money. Many who use money are seeking to buy more and more land. This cruelty is far deeper for those born into circumstances where they spend a tragically short lifetime knowing nothing but hunger, thirst, sleeplessness, malnutrition, the vagaries of the weather... It really is sad – and a sadness which is at the hands of artificial constructs. That is what makes it oh-so cruel.

Yes, I am writing here of capitalism which, at its essence, is this concept of "I own". This is a bubble which needs to be burst. First of all, no-one laid down the continents or filled in the oceans... somehow "built the Earth". No-one's ancestors ever did. Certainly no banker or conveyancing lawyer ever did! This is so absurd that no-one is even attempting to make such a claim. How then may anyone claim that land... a piece of the planet... may be owned? It is absurd.

On an individual level... well... each and every last one of us came into this world owning nothing. We did not even have the ability to control where our body went. The same applies once we die. The in-between is taken up by nothing more than artificial constructs and laws. I mean this is the epitome of human arrogance. I would not care if it did not come with such nasty global realities e.g. contrasts in access to food around the world. "I own", by its essence is exclusionary. That... I mean no need to go any further... that right there is some nasty, ahem, 'business'.

This is a sorry state of affairs around this world. Again I am at a loss and it does boggle my mind – I have always been able to meet my physiological needs yet vast numbers never could – and this contrast continues... At this individual human level, I cannot wrap my mind around it. It is unfathomable.. at least to me. Still I see it. I am not going to defend it in order to defend capitalism which I myself had nothing to do with setting up. None of us alive today did. Yes I may have had the dum luck in life to have been born into the circumstances I was born into. I agree that I myself have benefited in many ways at the hands of capitalism – and indeed I appreciate it. Still those born into tragic circumstances are no less (or more) than what I am. We're people. Each and every last one of us.

How, let alone in good conscience, is anyone able to defend a system which is so dehumanising? I have some ideas about how it may be different e.g. returning to non-ownership being one. How would that work? Well, to begin with, each person has a current location. That may be used as a starting point. Then comes the idea which predates "I own" several times over: we share. What the alternative may turn out to be is beyond me as it is beyond any single one of us. I, at least for one, refuse to allow the unknowability of the future to blind me to the nastiness – all the way down nastiness – which exists in the present. That would be to deny my own presence on this planet as a human being.

I read the replies above and perhaps this follow up serves as a response. You are welcome to reply to this post as well. Let me know if you feel eyeofthedesert, manxiee and/or aussiem8 that I have not sufficiently responded to it. I will be more specific. For everyone else, as always, I welcome your thoughts, views, anything at all.

I appreciate everyone's time and attention.

Kindest regards,
Tom
2 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
This comment is an observation which has come to mind after a rather lengthy chat I had in #Australia Chat earlier today. It went for around a couple of hours I would say.

As some of you already know, my education and career background is in financial services. Things happened many years ago now i.e. outside my work life. I am now a sustainability advocate.

What I have noticed is that when I said that I was in finance or worked for... whoever... say Zurich Financial Services Australia. Or said that I was a unit pricing analyst with a major fund manager... anyone outside of finance did not have a clue what that actually involved on a day to day basis. Even so, it was kinda accepted. Oh, okay that guy is in finance kinda thing. Yeah cool.

Now that I say that I am a sustainability advocate or I make my way from accessing the nation's ever increasing money supply... this is met with all sorts of questions and requests for more information. I am asked to get as detailed as I possibly can. More detailed information and specifics are asked of me again and again. It is repeated over and over.

All because it is not as... how to put it... oh yeah as 'normal' as being a unit pricing analyst with a major fund manager. Calculating unit prices... even though it is not understood by vast numbers in today's world... well it sounds alright. It is categorised as normal, y'see. That makes it all fine.

If one says one accesses a nation's ever increasing money supply then... hep... all sorts of questions emerge. An insistence that one be detailed and specific emerges. I mean why? I do not actually care to know the ins and outs of how one receives money in life. I have not asked any person to hand me money and nor have I been asked. Great. Yay. That ends this story as far as I am concerned.

-----

In all of this I add the following, also an observation. Ever since I started learning about money in high-school, I have looked into it more and more deeply. The attention which it receives in today's world is intense. I have studied it to post-graduate level in the formal sense and then further on my own. If I happen to find someone who speaks or chats or writes about it then I ask to see how much is known about it.

SwamiHoopleMMT, if you are reading this, you are one person who has thought about it on this macro-scale. You are the only one I can remember right now... oh aphilv as well - you may not have investigated it but you have given thought to the macro scale.

Everyone else I have come across - online or offline - has this perpetual worry about their nation's finances. It is not, however, something which they have examined beyond what is presented by politicians or in the mass media. Yet they sweat over it i.e. on the macro-scale.

I understand it on the micro-scale... one does not pay the bills and destitution results. At the macro-scale, however, one is able to see that it is all an artificial construct. Yet, even here, people consider it a legitimate worry... spend their entire adult life worrying about it and having it influence their voting behaviour at elections.

It is not that I judge anyone in all this but I find it puzzling... now in my mid-40s it is getting to the point where I am finding it - not people - the worry which people have as kinda sad. I mean look into it is the obvious solution that I have. That is up to each person though. I cannot somehow do the thinking of those who worry about money on the macro scale.

Or do not look into it. If that is the path you wish to take then do not be going around calling on me to give an explanation of how I access a nation's and the world's ever increasing money supply. You have not looked into the system in the first place so spare me - and yourself - such questions. I am merely being practical here. If ever you do wish to discuss it then examine the system and I will be happy to oblige at that level.

I am here to chat (and I add I am not here to judge fellow chatters). I am practical enough to say, however, that there needs to be a certain level of common understanding in order to chat. I am definitely not here to be judged in terms of how I access money - or on anything else for that matter.

Okay, that's all.

As always replies are welcome and I appreciate your time and attention.
2 months ago Report Link
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
There is widespread fascism on here. I seem to be one of a tiny few who stand up for freedom of expression. That thing which has existed since time immemorial. Anyhow I have created a couple of chatrooms on Wireclub. I booted no-one. Not. A. Single. Person. I attempted to remove myself as an op but Wireclub does not allow it – what do you make of that one? One comes on to a chat site i.e. a communications site, a site where people may express themselves. One does so in good faith. What is found... well... that is something else. Kinda makes sense in a way. Where else to practise fascism except in places where people communicate...

I step back a moment. Letters to the Editor in newspapers... fascism is found there; talkback radio... fascism is found there; television... my gosh; YouTube and video sharing sites... fascism there as well. Online forums such as Reddit, Whirlpool... fascism there too. Universities and academia... fascism, and that dates back centuries. Demonstrations on the streets... one risks police brutality and/or a criminal record. In medicine and science… fascism there as well. Where is this free society I have been told about my entire life?

Okay returning to here... all I *seem to* have is a message like this one, but I also know that it comes with a risk. I know people have had their accounts deleted. One such chatter gave me months... nay... a couple of years of nastiness. Insults, publicly relaying how much contract killers cost to hire, that do-gooders ought to be killed first (which he had described me as in the past)… Oh yes you name it, he said it. Even for him, I defend his right to have a fricking account on here. One that he had used for many years. His nastiness, as I have said to oh-so many people on here... his nastiness is his choice. Why defend freedom of expression? If we are not permitted to express ourselves then how may any of us live? What is the alternative – hand our thoughts and feelings over to those who censor us? That is absurd. The lack of practicality is infinite.

I said things such as this this morning in #Open Minded Men and Women. It resulted in a banning and a 'Big Fail' badge from someone self-identifying as 'Basic Bish'. Y'know what? Perhaps it is a big fail – *but what does that say*? What does is say about this place? I mean badges are nothing more than technological mechanisms – for people with the money to spend on them. So too with bootings, bannings, suspensions, mutings, comment deletions etc etc… nothing more than technological mechanisms. Well why does Wireclub exist? Perhaps the passive income the gambling generates for a couple of people? I mean why else have online gambling? Oh, and if you have read to this point, I appreciate it yet please recognise that that was your choice. One and all may see how long a piece of writing is prior to reading it. Perhaps you wish to stop here? It is up to you. You continue? Again I appreciate it and, even then, you remain entitled to complain – about anything... the word count, my tone, my content... you won't find me deleting anyone's comment or blocking anyone. No-one. No-one is on my blocked list. I am 'practising what I preach'. And I continue to defend freedom of expression.

Defending freedom of expression is something which none of us, myself included, should need to do – yet here we are where it is in fact needed. It is tragic. Again, though, that is also where we're all at – in a tragic place/state. Freedom to express oneself is lost *on forums of expression* no less... that is a loss for all of us. This 'Big Fail', if true, holds true for 'Basic Bish' and for everyone on here (yes myself included)... heck extending out to anyone who may one day have an account or participate in some way on Wireclub. I will at least be able to say that I stood up for freedom to express oneself. I mean so flipping basic. I stand by the choice I have made to defend freedom of expression. It is when it is eroded with all these technological mechanisms on here that it is most important to stand up for it. I mean is this new technology progress in communications and human affairs or regress? It is regress if mechanisms exist within this communications technology by which people can... how does one even say it... 'disappear' other people from a chatroom, or even the site altogether. Or delete comments or whatever else fricking exists on here. I wish to read what others say and, in so doing, be able to reply. If that is not what you wish to do... even in part... then why even chat?

Yep, still, you are welcome to criticise me, ‘pat me down’, ‘slap me down’, insult me, throw any nastiness towards me that you wish to. I am not going to delete it and I am not going to block anyone i.e. no matter what the response is. That is freedom of expression. You are welcome to respond – ‘positively’ or ‘negatively’ or in any other manner you see fit. I welcome it. That is the difference between me and those who behave in a fascist manner. Anyway the point is clear: you too may defend freedom of expression or... there is an alternative... come on here and cower in the face of those who assign badges to other chatters, boot chatters, delete comments, you know what I mean... I think it is obvious which choice I have made – and continue to make.

Responses are welcome and thank-you for your time and attention.

My location: Sydney, Australia
Time: 12:46pm Australian Eastern Standard Time
Day and date: Friday 20 May 2022
2 months ago Report Link
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Talk Derby to Me
Talk Derby to Me: quite the lengthy discourse, and very few have ideals that are as black and white. Take some of our safe rooms for example, who are they safe for? the cliques that run them as long as you conform to their ideals and don't express anything to the contrary/status quo. Most of such censorship or selective adaption of what is safe/drama/acceptable is only measured by one entities idea of what is acceptable and what is not.

Most countries have a bill of rights or constitution ect that allows for freedom of speech and expression. The one flip side to total freedom, (in my opinion, just incase me writing it wasn't obvious that it was my own thoughts), is it often degenerates into people that can't allow/admit to themselves they could to be wrong, which often leads to clashing and potentially ruining the overall experience for others.

Just as people are free to speak as they wish so to are people free to tune out/block, unless there is another factor involved such as loosing a rating on a place that has taken time to build to a certain standard, (again freedom of expression, to enter here you must be x,y,z or this is our dress code for somewhere to dine or drink,), so this potentially leads to two lots of freedom to express clashing. Chaos is born from disorder so where do we draw the line?
2 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos in reply to Talk Derby to Me:
Nice reply Derby. Oh man – I appreciate it. I have raised this issue in the past, here and elsewhere, and the most common response is an insult. A one line "You're a [insert insult]". It is from people who often insult me so it is not ironic; they seriously are insulting me. Obviously I do not like to be insulted but that is only 'the tip of the iceberg' of my appreciation. The bulk of "the iceberg" is that you have thought about this. I did not want to respond to your response without mentioning this – and it is best at the outset.

Yeah, the old refusal to admit one is wrong. It brings to mind a couple of other chats I have had... these in #Philosophy. The thinly veiled death threat I pointed to in my initial message above was in #Australia Chat (no-one expressed any outrage). Anyway I get to those in a moment. Okay a person refuses to admit they are wrong. Let them refuse. Long ago in my life, I made a judgement call. Life itself is an immeasurably more effective teacher than I, with my words and limitations, will ever be. Their false belief may result in the suffering of others. I do not wish this any more than the next person. Is censorship or long term fascism going to change that? One may have the means to silence such a person here or there. Perhaps even until the person dies. Does this "silence" a person's feelings and/or thoughts? One runs the risk that the entirely inaccurate feelings and thoughts are held with an even stronger conviction. This, in turn, could cause an amplified level of suffering.

To the two examples I referred to at the beginning of the previous paragraph. One chatter in #Philosophy took it upon himself to state that I hate all Europeans. No idea how he got this impression and, yes, entirely incorrect/false. He kept this up for more than two years. Trolls play fast and loose with the reputation of others. Since he kept saying it publicly, I kept correcting it. This then became his justification i.e. that I kept being baited. In a way he was correct but it was because I am invested in my own reputation. I doubt if he gave/gives any care at all about that – for him it was the satisfaction of getting a reaction out of another chatter. Do I block him? Here is the thing: I saw that others took him seriously i.e. in general. Perhaps no-one took him seriously but a newcomer could come along and take him seriously. It has been said that the only "cure" for freedom of expression is more freedom of expression. I used my freedom of expression to perpetually set the record straight. As mentioned, I could see that 'my troll' was taken seriously by a couple of others in the chatroom. Eventually, towards the end of 2021, one of them finally asked me. It was something like "why are you taking this so seriously Tom?". I explained that it had been going on for over two years. I believe I did get through to this guy. He asked his friend/ 'my troll' to give it up. 'My troll' did not – for a couple of more chats he continued saying that I hate all Europeans... to which, again, I defended my reputation. After that, though, I have scarcely seen this troll. I am enjoying a much lighter vibe for me in there. Is it tiring? Man it is exhausting. Here is the thing though: there is one thing which a troll is unable to do and that is 'disappear' people i.e. unless they also happen to have that technological mechanism at their disposal.

Onto the second example. I won't tell the backstory to this one. Basically one guy got one chat to a point where he said "forget the laws" and murdered me i.e. said that he shoots me dead. He then claimed that I had killed myself. The old "your words forced me to kill you". I just laughed. I said "you are pulling a trigger yet I am the killer??". Have not seen him for months since then. Again, another form of refusal to believe one is wrong. Instead one doubles down or resorts to violence... Of course, I am still alive and writing these here words. My giving people the freedom to say their piece... even if it is harmful to me (and perhaps me alone) --- I still stand by it. Okay something else on my end. People have made me a host in chatrooms. One host was persistent about it. I removed myself as a host something like five times. Someone I had chatted to quite a number of times said "there is the sacrifice". I mean okay I guess but I disagreed – that was my salvation! I was added as a host in this chatroom yet again. At this point I said "this is just ridiculous", removed myself as host and exited straight away. All these positions are, in the end, are a technological mechanism – and one which comes with an implied threat. Even if a host does not boot, ban, mute etc. anyone... their ability to do so remains a factor. It is not why I come on here, and definitely not who I want to be. It is why I attempted to remove myself as a host in the chatrooms I have created. Wireclub does not allow it. Anyway, it is plain and blindingly obvious (to me at least) – we are here to communicate.

Communicate. That is where it is all at. If anyone expects there to be some "universal agreement on all things" here then that is a recipe for frustration and anger. Time (plus perhaps typing effort) which will not return. If anyone expects that all of humanity will ever reach such a point then the frustration and anger will only multiply. Agreement is not what life is about. Life is about, at least in part, communication. Identical siblings do not agree on absolutely everything. I know because I am related to some. I do not do your thinking or feeling. No-one, except our own selves, do these things. Well, by the same token, agreement cannot somehow be guaranteed. I humbly suggest that the question of where does one draw the line is, itself, a betrayal of an attitude which... I dunno... is somehow seeking to 'silence' others. Who are you to draw a line? Who am I to do so? And who for? All of humanity? Here is another question for you: is such a line something you sincerely want to assume responsibility for? What happens if someone crosses this line? What do you do then? What if 99.99...99% of humanity crosses this line? Then what do you do? Draw a line for yourself... I say that communication is key to this life – even non-human life. Definitely with respect to sexual reproduction. That too is communication – and incredibly intimate on a vast number of occasions. Even without the intimacy, it is communication. That is how each life begins for each and every last one of us – a merging of a sperm with an egg cell. I mean if... after saying that you wish to 'fight it' or 'defeat it' or what-have-you then... I dunno... I just return to life itself is an infinitely better 'educator' than I will ever be.

One's fighting it is part and parcel of being alive – so I defer to that force which animates and binds each and every last one of us. None of us is able to 'defeat' that which, in the end, each and every last one of us possesses. Namely the will or inclination or need or ability or responsibility or _____ to communicate.
2 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Ecosystems and ecology precede economics - economics is not about money at all
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
-> A call for help and to join a movement

Dear reader,

May this message find you well.

I come in peace, and in joy. I am not misanthropic, autistic, sadistic, looking to "get a win" over anyone. I happen to be passionate about sustainability. What kind of a place are we - or okay am I - going to leave behind? Future generations are at the heart of it. So too are ancestors and everyone alive today for that matter.

Like anyone on here (or anywhere else!), I hope to say my piece - but I deliberately stop short of telling anyone what to actually do. I would not want such a responsibility even if I could assume it. I do it all with a sense of peace, joy, humility, gratitude, love of life. But I'll be the first to confess/admit that I fall short of perfection.

I am looking to build a movement. It is not why I first came on to Wireclub but, seeing as I am here now... The aim is to reconnect economics to nature (rather than money). Nature is our life support system. Money is "pfffff"... it is nothing more than an artificial construct. The financial systems across this world have changed a great deal - that is all one really needs to know about that.

The key: what trajectories is nature on? Nature really is 'where it all comes from'. How we meet our most basic (physiological) needs through to the most luxurious want anyone may ever even imagine - nature is what supplies it for us. My 10 year old nephew could tell you this. This is all one needs to understand to become a part of this. What will this movement entail? Well, each person does whatever s/he wishes to do and nothing s/he does not. Whatever each person can do also comes into it of course. I am asking for help here because I - nor anyone else - can do it alone. I imagine the beginning is just chats. That is the continuation too I suppose. Anyone involved communicating with others involved.

The aim: we need to get to a world in which future planetary conditions are of primary concern. As opposed to, say, the movement in a bank balance over a particular quarter. It needs a macro-scale field of vision. What could be more important? Without sustainability, everything becomes worthless and meaningless. Reconnecting economics to nature also allows us to live with a reverence and a confidence which today, well, are lacking. Allow us to live with some level of harmony - with Mother Earth and amongst ourselves. Let us restore ourselves as people!

It is real. This message. I am reaching out here. I myself am committed to all this but, again, none of us (and certainly not me) is able to do it single-handedly. My contact settings on Wireclub are set to open i.e. for everybody - noone is on my blocked list. It has stayed and will stay that way. I welcome anything anyone wishes to say.

Underneath it all, thank-you for your time and attention in reading.

Kindest regards,
Tom Livanos
tom.369@hotmail.com
Sydney, Australia

Time: 12:06pm Australian Eastern Standard Time
Day and date: Tuesday 26 April 2022
3 months ago Report Link
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Tom Livanos got the Huge Nerd badge from OnionBoogie 3 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos to Mr bbb:
I state at the outset that it is 4-5 years since we first crossed paths on here. I reciprocate your writings on my wall (more than once) with an entry here. Yours have been... shall we say... 'less than pleasant' - at least to me.

From what was said in #Australia Chat over the weekend, I see that others also think you take a heavy handed approach when chatting with someone i.e. it is not just me who thinks so. You do not come on often any more but when you do, sheesh...

Okay so I am a serious kinda guy. Reconnecting economics to nature is, well to me (and I'm not the only one), a serious topic. You, and others on Wireclub, wish to take that and use it for entertainment purposes... what may one say... "it is one way to go". Ya got me? There are other approaches one may take. I do not mean to be prescriptive here so I merely invite you to think about it. Why think about it? Well, take me out of it for a moment...

..."Zinging" a person in relation to what that person is passionate about... again... it is 'less than pleasant'. Passionate people continue to be people. A passionate person, okay myself included, has feelings; *any* person is not like some lump of rock. The old classic: treat others as you wish to be treated.

I remain human ..............

Oh, if you're thinking that your aggressiveness is making my passion shine brighter... [sigh]... leave me to shine my own inner light. You focus on doing the same on your end. There is already an overflow of aggressiveness in this world. A lot, if not all of it, is supposedly for a good cause or something that is necessary or what have you.

How about we, as people, start creating a world that is kinder, more gentle, more humane -- I know which one I prefer to live in and I see no reason why I would be different to you or anyone else in this regard.

Aggression is all 'well-and-good' for the aggressor but 'not so crash hot' when one is on the receiving end of it. No amount of 'logic' gets a person around another's lived experience... or that of one's own experiences.

Okay that's all.

As always, I appreciate your time and attention. I wish you all the best i.e. person to person. It goes without saying that 'the conversation always continues'...
4 months ago Report Link
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Of course China888 - and I appreciate your interest. If there is anything specific you wish me to explain further then let me know. Since writing this... gosh, coming up to two years ago now (how time flies!)... I have thought of five questions to... ahem... ask the world (lol). It may perhaps make the content above more tangible. Here are the five questions:

1. What is here?
2. How does it live or function/operate?
3. What are the linkages?
4. How are human needs (and wants) met?
5. How do things change, and over what time period?

Of course what I am referring to here is nature, planet Earth, the world's ecosystem, the environment...

In this, localisation is key i.e. locals. People like me in Sydney, Australia and your good self in Toronto, Canada. Locals always have been, are and always will be best placed to observe - and then manage - any locality in the world. I admit/confess in this that I have a soft spot for transport and communications technology. It is no surprise that one finds me on Wireclub! Anyhow, locals answering the five questions above in whichever locality they happen to be in. This is something of a redefinition of employment in that it 'merges' it with education but it can keep... well... all the world occupied from school age to old age. One generation to the next.

Thus it would end the unemployment problem - something economists have spoken/written about "since forever" - once and for all. Furthermore, it is only then that any one of us may even begin to speak/write of operating a healthy economy. That is plain, old fashioned, old school first principles. One needs to know what one is dealing with before one may manage it in any healthy i.e. sustainable manner. In today's world, humanity is not managing... well... anything! It is extracting and consuming that which the Earth has taken billions of years to supply. This is *not* what any economy is actually about. The economy is how we manage 'our house' i.e. nature. Nature is our life support system and how we are able to... well... do anything e.g. meet our physiological needs, manufacturing, agriculture, mining (a most tricky one), provide one another with services... it all tracks back to nature. Nature gets a bad rap in the mass media but, far wider than any natural disasters, nature really is our foundational life-support system.

You will find in my writings that I write about foundations, first principles, principles in general, underpinnings, what supports everything else... I do this deliberately as this is where things are at i.e. not only for me but for what we are dealing with in terms of the planet, the world, humanity on this planet... Oh, if we are unable to make it here on Earth then we will not be able to make it on Mars, on the moon, or anywhere else! It is plain and obvious that the Earth - even the most hostile part(s) of it - is more conducive to human life than any other place in the solar system... let alone farther out! So, in the end, sustainability is a good news story. It would also provide a reverence (for where we are) and a confidence (that we are doing what is best... even if that is not perfect - what is perfect anyway?) which, today, is missing. What better upside could there be in this life than that!

You are most welcome to reply or ask me more or comment or whatever!

Again, underneath it all, I appreciate you (everyone's?) time and attention.

All the best,
Tom
5 months ago Report
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China888
China888: Tom that was very well written, your ideas are clear, concise and even though I don't have a back ground like yours. I could understand you.
4 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
I could not ask for more. That... that China888... that is like winning an Olympic Gold Medal or something for me . Thank-you.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos has a new blog post: Items I am thankful for 11 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Thank-you Mew. I came up with this list (actually a longer one) several years ago. I return to it from time to time. I care about the world but I am not solely responsible for the world. I return to this list to remind me to slow down. By the same token to do so without abandoning any responsibility I have as a citizen, consumer, worker (albeit not at this time), family member, friend etc. My gratitude also serves as a foundation to my advocacy for environmental sanity (more commonly known as sustainability). It is an issue which is vast. This list is important in keeping me going. Yeah, anyway, I return to where I began - thanks again for your response.
11 months ago Report
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China888
China888: Tom that was really beautiful, enjoyed reading that.
5 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Thank-you China888. I, in turn, enjoyed reading your lovely reply.
5 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
A particular hello to anyone reading this who does not have English as their first language. I know English best, as well as some Greek. In any case, Wireclub is presented in English. I appreciate your understanding of English as it allow us to communicate, and I appreciate communicating with others. Thank-you.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
A private chat with a mod from #Trump Had It RIGHT

It all gives me a good laugh... lol
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Tom Livanos in reply to Manxiee:
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(Post deleted by EYEOFTHEDESERT 6 months ago)
(Post deleted by EYEOFTHEDESERT 6 months ago)
Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
---On my participation in conversations regarding the politics of the United States of America---

First a bit on my background. I was born in Sydney, Australia. Excepting holidays, I have always lived in Australia (albeit not always in Sydney). It so happens that the United States of America is a country I have visited. It was for one week in late April 2003. I entered legally on a tourist visa. That is the closest connection I have in my life with the United States of America i.e. the land.. the place. Why, then, do I engage in chats about the United States of America? Heck.. why am I even writing this comment? How about I start with the general picture and move to specifics...

... The United States of America has an annual military expenditure equal to that of the next dozen countries combined. It has a nuclear weapons arsenal - which requires enrichment every 20 minutes - that is far larger than any other country. It has kept this for over 75 years now - longer than any other country. It is one of five countries to have a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, thereby giving it veto power. It has more influence in the United Nations than any other country. This is because of a headquarters location in the city of New York (the other being in Geneva, Switzerland) and because of United Nations funding arrangements. It is a similar situation with the World Trade Organisation, the International Monetary Fund and the 'World Bank' (not the official name). That is all well and good as far as international institutions are concerned. Where the 'rubber hits the road' is with the corporations which are based in the United States of America.

These corporations - far more than any country (today or in history) - have operations which extend from the South Pole to the North Pole. They are backed by the points in the previous paragraph. An example of the power that I am here writing about: on 15/16 February 2003, the world gathered to protest against the invasion of Iraq. Within five weeks, Iraq was invaded. I mean they did not even try to give the impression that the world was listened to. Then former President George W. Bush, former Prime Minister of Britain Tony Blair and former Prime Minister of Australia metaphorically sail off into a (taxpayer funded) sunset. So much for the assumption of personal responsibility. Okay I am not a local in Iraq (and have less to do with Iraq than what I have to do with the United States of America.. as mentioned at the top). The reality, however, is clear. A "my way or get blasted" approach.

There are corporations based in the United States of America who have operations here in Australia. I may write about the concept of "I own" in another post. For now, I needn't go far... these corporate operations exist in the nearest shopping centre to where I am writing these here words. Corporations are not elected by the general public, let alone a public outside their country of origin. It is corporations that have an agenda. They want to continue maximising quarterly profits for shareholders. That is all. It is not as if they care about the well-being of locals is i.e. in any given locality. It is by law that they prioritise quarterly profits for shareholders i.e. over anything and everything else. They are also multinational... indeed transnational... they play national governments off against one another. In essence they come into areas and take over what happens in that locality. There is no counterbalance to this power. This is why I take an interest in the United States of America. Yet I also know that, as powerful as corporations are, they are nothing more than legal constructs. The British parliament once banned them from existence in 1720. Pfft. Gone. Vamoose. Disappeared. Finito. They only exist in a legal form. I mean can you imagine Joe Biden or Boris Johnson banning corporations today? Ha! These people (i.e. politicians) have the power to deregister corporations.. even today.. but, in 2022, it is inconceivable that any politician would actually strike a corporation from the record i.e. even one. It is not even talked about. Not by any politician in relation to any corporation.

This is how deeply this legal form has seeped its way into the operations - and psychology - of the world. Yet it is we humans who created corporations in the first place. They were established.. way back when.. to fulfil a singular purpose e.g. pooling investor money to build a bridge. Once that was completed and investors given some return, the corporation was wound up. They have gone from being that to being the global marauders that they are today. I do not follow the politics of Benin, a country in Africa, because it does not have operations - let alone multiple operations - here in Sydney. It is not some enlightened wisdom which draws my attention to the United States of America. Ha!!! It is because of these global operations. Again, far more than any other country today or at any other time in human history. The fact that I do not get a vote in the United States of America is one thing. The discourse.. yes here on Wireclub (and admittedly other sites)... has reached such a point that I am ridiculed for even saying something about the United States of America i.e. merely because I was born and/or live outside it. Yet, the underlying reality remains, I actually live within the United States of America. It has pretty much stitched up the present day world.

None of this is to argue that I am somehow a fan or supporter of China. I have an aversion to empires -- irrespective of where they are based. It does not matter to me if it is China, the United States of America, Britain, the Ottoman Turks, Byzantium (a little different), Rome, Greece, Persia, Egypt, Babylon, Sumeria.. I do not care. Leave locals to live in their locality is what I consider to be the wisest course of action. Locals always have been, are and always will be best placed to i. observe; and then ii. manage a locality. It is plain first principles. There is no "curve" to get ahead of on this one. Yet, today, it is someone sitting in a boardroom in New York or London or San Francisco or Los Angeles or Seattle or Tokyo... wherever... these Company Directors have a far bigger say over what happens here in Sydney than what I do, as someone who has lived here for decades. I am not arguing any of these Directors are bad people or nasty or whatever... it is simply that the dynamic lacks balance and, therefore, any sense of proportion or health. It is toxic.

And more so if I am unable to even engage on it on a chat site... yet that is what someone outside the United States of America faces when chatting with people within the United States of America. It is - by far and away - the most common reaction I have come across. I mean if that is not toxic then nothing is. All, in the end, supported by the threat of violence... if not actual physical violence committed against people. It is not a philosophy of freedom - rather the opposite. The refusal to engage by those in the United States of America is a form of fascism - and that is a form of violence as well. Yes, I have had the chance to write all this here. If you, reader, have reached this point then yes you have read it - and I appreciate your time and attention in doing so. What, however, of those who do not ever get an opportunity in their life - long or short - to say their piece? There are countless numbers of such people around this world. What of them? Something needs to change here. Yeah I have some ideas on that. I have even written about it here on Wireclub, and other places. That is beyond the scope of this comment. I have gone on long enough here. The United States of America is basically in your face.. about everything. I have not even touched on the media. Oh god...

As always, I welcome any and every reply that I receive.

Reader, underneath it all, I appreciate your time and attention.

All the best,
Tom (Livanos)
tom.369@hotmail.com
Time: 12:17pm Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time
Day and date: Friday 4 February 2022
6 months ago Report Link
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos in reply to EYEOFTHEDESERT:
Your usual, one word, reply... yes in a way but, in the end, not to me. To me this issue is, at best, an annoyance. At worst it is downright rude - in many ways. I do not mean to come off as ungrateful... anything but! Thank-you. I appreciate it that you read my posts. Thanks Eye of the desert.
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EYEOFTHEDESERT
EYEOFTHEDESERT in reply to Tom Livanos:
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ruachhakodesch
ruachhakodesch: Wow, you really have a lot on your chest. So to speak. The world to me is a fallen rotten apple and yet I go out and plant trees. Every day I give my very best to run a good race. There are some evil agendas that some very rich people try to indoctrinate with success. I wounder what people believe in. " I do think that women could make politics irrelevant by as a kind of cooperative action, .... a famous woman once stated. The likes of we have seen, so far from people's ideals. Most people want to gain something in life. Only some receive the gift to recognize that to give is better than to take. " We do live in an age were there is the battle between the Spirit of Life and the Spirit of death." But are people aware of the spiritual warfare that is going on? I doubt it. Our horizon is different. Do people seriously believe that we have " developed " from monkeys? God help us! I believe the country's are ruled by evil systems, a lot of them, to keep people under the joke of fear and slavery for little salary. The new evil agenda is communism, transhumanismn, genderism ect, a disgrace for mankind. The Rfid chip Elon Musk is already experimenting with, will soon be forced into anyone, like the forced vaccination. For me, Iam a believing woman, I believe man shall get rid of his chains, on different levels and live freely for the well being of others. My reply to you may miss some point. Please forgive me for this.
I believe in cooperative gathering of people every where who live of the land and support one another and many different ways to be of help for those who are not being seen by this mad world. Shalom Tom
6 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos added a new image to his gallery Philosophical 1 year ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Prior to getting into it (which I am willing to do in a place of communication, which is what Wireclub actually is), my focus point is the Earth i.e. this planet which we live on. That is my point to posting this photo. I care about the planet, the world, humanity, the big picture out to here. It is not so much a photo as it is... well... our home planet. That is the key here. That is my focus. It continues to be my focus.

Okay cx3. Fake? How do you come to that conclusion?

Time: 4:40pm Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time
Day and date: Friday 17 December 2021
7 months ago Report
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cx3
cx3: I'm joking.
6 months ago Report
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos:
Ah. Jokes are risky. Anyway, you weren't the first to say "fake". So far you have been the last.
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Tom Livanos
Tom Livanos changed his profile picture: 1 year ago Report
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