Friends | I'm a Christian who lives in Brisbane, Australia, although I was born in London, England. I work in the childcare industry. HydroMan: I sent an email 'The emotional suffering of Jesus before dying' I was hoping you could take a look at it and see if there is anything I may have missed? TheDoctor394: Just having a look now, and maybe His temptation in the desert could be included? I would think starving and thirsting in the heat for forty days, and having Satan taunting you and tempting you to sin, would be very emotionally draining. Jesus also showed sad emotions at Lazarus' grave. This could be seen as a bit of mild suffering, even if it being natural human sadness. (Post deleted by HydroMan ) HydroMan: To put it another way, crucifixion usually lasted for days, but Jesus died withn 6 hours. So I'm wondering if the emotional aspects would have contributed to His fast death HydroMan: The Bible tells us chaos, pain and suffering came into existence after Adam and Eve sinned, and after the Serpent deceived Eve (numerous curses as punishment for Adam, Eve, and Satan). For example, all the livestock and wild animals were cursed, including the serpent (Genesis 3:14). Women would now experience pain during childbirth (Genesis 3:16). The ground would produce thorns and thistles (Genesis 4:18). Physical exhaustion/labor would now occur (Genesis 4:19). What we can see here is, God’s perfect order of Creation was now thrown in turmoil. This is because Man was given authority to rule over everything in the planet (Genesis 1:26,28). As a result, everything under Man’s rulership would now be affected (when someone abuses their authority, there will be consequences for everything that is under their authority). But what about everything outside the planet – why is there chaos in the Solar System and the universe? It would seem as though the universe and everything in it was created to be under Man’s dominion, not just the planet Earth; as Romans 8:22 says, “For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now”. In other words, God’s entire creation (universe, Solar System, stars, planets) has been affected as a result of Man’s sin because the entire creation is under Man’s authority and rulership. This would explain why there is chaos outside of the planet Earth. Example: The Universe serves as a functioning unit/support system for Earth. For instance, just as humans require blood to ‘move’ in their veins, the Earth may require stars and galaxies to ‘move’ in their orbits, with their light in transit (the sun moves in a gigantic circuit around the centre of the Milky Way, and the Milky Way moves with respect to other galaxies). Unfortunately, this support system as been affected after Man chose to reject his Creator. As a result, God partially separates/distances Himself from the world. And as a result of God’s absence (absence of God and all that is good), chaos and disorder exist (when God partially removes Himself from the world, chaos erupts). To put it another way, God sustains and preserves the Universe and everything in it. But when the Universe is deprived from God, it no longer functions in the way it was intended (something has been lost and removed, that is, order and perfection has been deprived) Fortunately, God has not removed His presence from the Universe completely, which is why there is so much order in the Universe View all 4 posts HydroMan: An example of chaos would be asteroids and meteroids colliding, or meteroids falling into earth and killing someone. I dont think that was part of the 7 day creation. So I think, after the Fall, the universe itself must have been affected in some way and not just our planet TheDoctor394: Yes, that's fair enough. I suppose, since it usually happens way out there, I don't really think much about it. Also, there's heaps of space, so it still seems so serene and quiet. Hmmm... I don't sound like much of a science fiction fan. HydroMan: I suppose, since it usually happens way out there, I don't really think much about it. I dont think many Christians in general really think much about it. I've been trying to find info on this but haven't really found much. For example, when did God create asteroids and comets? Some say it would have been on day 4 when God created "lights" . While I agree planets and galaxies would have been created on day 4, I dont think asteroids and comets were, as these things slam into planets, moons, and collide with each other. So again I think they somehow came into formation after the Fall, although I dont know how HydroMan: is God's love conditional or unconditional? Does God love us on the condition that people obey Him? Argument: God’s love is conditional and not unconditional/only loves people on the condition they obey Him (ultimatum; obey God or perish) Response: God’s love is unconditional because He created us. This means God will always love a person no matter how many times they disobey Him. It also means God will love a person even if they perish. But because God is love and loves everyone, He is also good and just. This means God is not going to tolerate evil and immorality (let people off the hook when they hurt others) It is no different than a police officer telling their child, “Son, I love you. But if you break the law and murder someone, I will put you in prison” (just because you punish your child, doesn’t mean that you don’t love your child or are placing conditions on your love for your child—parents do this all the time). Here is another way of looking at it. If your son murdered your daughter, do you let your son off the hook? Is it conditional love to say to your son, “If you murder your sister, I will have you arrested and punished?” No. You will always love your son even if he breaks the law. But if your son murders your daughter (hurts another individual that you also love equally and unconditionally), then you cannot sit back and allow your son to commit an evil act (it is not very loving to allow children to go ‘free range’ and do whatever they want if their actions hurt your other children) This is the same with Man and the punishment required for Mans crimes against God. God loves everyone regardless if they accept His offer of eternal life or not (for all eternity, God will always love those that perished because He created them). God does not stop loving people just because they don’t go to heaven. Yes, they will perish, but that doesn’t mean God stops loving them or loves them conditionally. We are to be reminded that God loved us before we loved Him (1 John 4:19) and that God demonstrated His love for us by dying when we were still sinners (Romans 5:8) The fact that God loved us when we were disobedient is evidence that God does not love us on the condition that we obey Him HydroMan: I wonder how Christian employers deal with transgender employees. Do they, for example, identify a transgender woman as a woman, fill out their tax and employment details with female pronouns etc? For me, I'm just sick of the whole thing. I know that, if I get a job and work with a transgender person, im not going to identify them by their preferred gender, and will most likely be sacked. And it is ridiculous to think a person can be sacked for speaking the truth/ what is biologically true ( calling a transgender woman a man and using male pronouns because that's what they are, but then getting sacked for it) HydroMan: how do we know God is a Triune Being? What if He decides to later reveal Himself as a Quad Being, or as 5 Persons and not 3? I sent an email 'Does God exist as 3 Persons' covering this topic TheDoctor394: I don't think there would be any reason for Him to do that, and there's no Biblical evidence I can think of that suggests He ever would. In fact, I think the evidence is solid that He is only three persons. I suppose it could be said that His unlimited power means He could do it, but He cannot do the logically impossible, and if He has always just existed as three persons, I think we can safely assume that's as far as it goes. TheDoctor394: Here's a brief clip of Richard Dawkins getting concerned about the rise of Islam, and preferring the culture of Christianity, even though he's been trashing Christianity for years. And if one looks at various comments below the video, there are some atheists who are likewise preferring Christianity to Islam or "wokeism". I think, with all the stuff going on in the world today, more and more people are waking up to the fact that maybe Christianity has more benefits than they've been aware of. HydroMan: It really annoys me just how ignorant many of these atheists can be. They have no idea just how much Christianity has contributed to western society. Yes, it has done many bad things. But everyone living in a western nation is reaping the benefits of what Christianity has done for them. Our hospitals, education system are all to do with Christianity. You look at some Islamic nations and they don't even allow women to drive a car or study to be a doctor. If Dawkins grew up in an Islamic nation, he would never have the freedom to criticise Islam in the way he can criticise Islam in the UK, which, technically, England is a Christian state! And we see this bias in western countries today. Atheists will criticise Christians, but are cautious about criticising Muslims because they know what will happen the next day on the streets. You only have to look at the Islamic pro Palestine protests that have been occurring after Israel invaded the Gaza HydroMan: I sent an email "last days". I don't know what your views are on this topic, but I do not believe the Disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime, as some suggest (the Disciples truly believed Jesus was going to return in their lifetime, but later realized that He would not return) View all 5 posts TheDoctor394: We did, thank you. How was yours? That's a good point about the apostles and their writings. In regard to people using modern day events, the rapture predictors are currently going crazy over this coming lunar eclipse. It seems everything unusual must mean something, like the recent collapse of the bridge in the USA. And, of course, it's usually got to be American-centric. They seem to forget about all the other "unusual" events throughout history, or things like world wars. Jesus hasn't returned yet, so why should it be so certain that the next eclipse, or other events, should be the "final" things to happen? HydroMan: *That's a good point about the apostles and their writings. Thanks. I wrote a little on this in the email I sent you as well Easter was ok here, considering everything that's going on with my sister HydroMan: does this make sense? There are passages in the Bible where Jesus worships God (prayed to the Father, observed the Jewish feasts, obeyed the Laws—all of which are acts of worshipping God). If Jesus is God, then how can He worship God? How can He worship Himself? Jesus is both God and Man. As God (God the Son), Jesus does not worship God the Father. But as a Man, Jesus is able to worship God the Father. Example: God is Spirit (spiritual immaterial Being and not a physical material being). This means that God the Son cannot eat food (take part in Jewish feasts that require Jews to eat—an act of worship). But as a Man (God-incarnate), Jesus can eat food, allowing Him to worship God the Father by taking part in Jewish feasts (Jesus is able to worship God by observing the Jewish feasts—not as God the Son, but as God-incarnate) Example: God is eternal. This means that God the Son is eternal and is able to have an eternal relationship with God the Father (spoke and communicated with the Father prior to His incarnation). But when God the Son became a Man, He would now be able to speak and communicate with the Father in a different way—a way that humans are able to speak and communicate with the Father (prayer, that is, speak and address the Father in the form of submission—an act of worship) Thus, as God the Son, Jesus is able to have an eternal relationship with God the Father. But as a Man (God-incarnate), Jesus is able to pray to the Father (worship the Father by speaking and communicating with Him in submission—not as God, but as Man) HydroMan: when Jesus rose from the dead, He not only conquered death, but He also, in a sense, conquered the Roman Empire. How? The Romans put Jesus to death. In doing so, they are demonstrating their sovereignty of Roman law (capital punishment for sedition) But when Jesus rose from the dead, it was essentially a slap in the face to Roman law, that is to say, the resurrection undermines the power of Roman law because their law on capital punishment could not keep Jesus in the grave HydroMan: God’s Will: understanding how God wills and times something 2 Example: A man named Ben plans to marry a woman named Kate. On the way to the wedding, Kate dies in a car crash after a drunk driver hits her car. Does this mean that it was God’s will and plan for Kate to be killed by a drunk driver and leave Ben heartbroken? It was not God’s will or plan for a drunk driver to kill Kate and leave people sad (God did not want/will a person to sin by getting drunk and kill Kate in a car crash, nor did He plan/orchestrate a person to sin by getting drunk and kill Kate in a car crash). Instead, it is God’s will and plan to bring good out of suffering and tragedy (use pain and suffering to His advantage in order to accomplish good—even if we cannot see it in the short term/at the moment suffering occurs) In this case, it is God’s will and plan for the drunk driver to run a campaign that teaches people about the consequences of drink driving (learn from his mistakes and spread awareness of drink driving) Example: A woman named Fiona has a miscarriage after her husband violently pushes her. Does this mean that it was God’s will and plan for Fiona to be abused and lose her unborn child (give her a child just to take it away soon after she becomes pregnant)? It was not God’s will or plan for Fiona to be abused and lose her unborn child (God did not want/will Fiona’s husband to physically abuse her and lose her unborn child, nor did God plan/orchestrate Fiona’s husband to physically abuse her and lose her unborn child). Instead, it is God’s will and plan to bring good out of the evil, suffering and tragedy (use evil, pain and suffering to His advantage in order to accomplish good—such as turning Fiona’s weaknesses into strengths). In this case, it is God’s will and plan for Fiona to become a counsellor in order to help other women that have been physically abused or have lost a child (comfort and support other women that have experienced the same or similar physical and emotional ordeals) Example: A woman named Bianca loses her arms and legs in a car accident. Does this mean that it was God’s will and plan for Bianca to suffer and have her limbs amputated? It was not God’s will or plan for Bianca to become an amputee (God did not want/will Bianca to lose her limbs, nor did God plan/orchestrate Bianca to lose her limbs). Instead, it is God’s will and plan to bring good out of suffering and tragedy (use pain and suffering to His advantage in order to accomplish good—such as turning Bianca’s weaknesses into strengths). In this case, it is God’s will and plan for Bianca to paint with her tongue and also become a Paralympic champion—bringing joy to many (take an ordinary person and make them do something extraordinary). Furthermore, God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. So while God knows, and has the power, to grow Bianca’s limbs back (something that is good and corresponds with the character of an all-good God), He also knows, and has the power, to make an amputee paint with their tongue and become a Paralympic champion (something that is also good and corresponds with an all-good God) Example: A man named Jim loses his eyesight after a group of men beat and rob him. Does this mean that it was God’s will and plan for Jim to be beaten and lose his eyesight? It was not God’s will or plan for Jim to be beaten, robbed, and lose his eyesight (God did not want/will a group of men to commit a sin and leave Jim blind, nor did God plan/orchestrate a group of men to commit a sin and leave Jim blind. Instead, it is God’s will and plan to bring good out of the evil, suffering and tragedy (use evil, pain and suffering to His advantage in order to accomplish good—such as turning Jim’s weaknesses into strengths). In this case, it is God’s will and plan for Jim to learn to play the piano—bringing joy to many (take an ordinary person and make them do something extraordinary). Furthermore, God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. So while God knows, and has the power, to restore Jims vision (something that is good and corresponds with the character of an all-good God), He also knows, and has the power, to make a blind person play the piano (something that is also good and corresponds with an all-good God) HydroMan: How do you make a distinction between God's will (God calling you to serve Him in some way) and your own will and desires? For example, when I post or make a blog, is it because God wants me to make the blog (it is God's will for me to do research and share it with others) or is it simply an urge or desire that i have (hence why i would never say to you, "It is God's will for you to read this", as this could be blasphemy) Its kind of like making a distinction between God changing a Believer, and a person turning over a new leaf ( own desire to change their ways) HydroMan: Another example, how does a person know God is calling them to do missionary work. Do they say, "God is calling me to do missionary work/it is God's will for me to do missionary work" or is it more appropriate to say, "I THINK God is calling me to do missionary work/I THINK it is God's will for me to do missionary work" and only after doing missionary work say, "God has called me to do missionary work/it is God's will for me to do missionary work"? I think its the latter, but still not sure how to make a distinction between Gods will and the will of the individual (personal urge and desire to do missionary work) HydroMan: I actually sent an email "Knowing God's will" (I THINK it was God's will for me to send it to you), perhaps you can have look at it and let me know what you think TheDoctor394: Personally, I think the only way we can know for sure that something is God's will, apart from knowing that He never wants us to sin, is when something actually happens. When I was accepted to study at the Bible College of Queensland, I knew that it was God's will for me to have reached that point, but I could not say for sure yet that He actually wanted me to start. If I knew it for sure, that would mean that I could be sure that I was not going to face death until it happened, and I don't see how we can ever be certain about that. Such a view was brought home to me when I did start college, for I heard about a Christian going to another one. He had been accepted, but died before he started. The day that was supposed to be his commencement ended up being the day of his funeral. The chances were that he firmly believed that it was God's will to study, but it obviously wasn't. I can also look at my current job and remember to when, over four years ago, I was lying on my bed, stuck unemployed and not knowing what to do. I suddenly got up and had yet another look at a job site, saw an advert and applied. In two days, I had a job and, despite going through the rough pandemic years, I've had it ever since. At the time, I could not have said for sure that it was God who urged me to apply for the job, but I can now see that it was His will. Sometimes it might be more obvious than at others, and we should certainly always be asking God for guidance as to what He wants us to do, but I believe it is very dangerous to assume something is (again, at least it is a moral issue) until we are actually doing it, or have done it. HydroMan: Praying to False Gods 2 INTRODUCTION As Christians, we believe there is only one God (Jesus). And this God is not the same God that people of other theist religions believe, love and worship (e.g. Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Sikh’s do not worship the same god as Christians). Therefore, if a Christian was invited to the home or wedding of a Jew, Muslim, Hindu or Sikh and was asked to pray to their god, then they cannot take part in the prayer. This is because prayer is an act of worship. So to pray to a different god is to worship and love a different god—something that is forbidden in the Bible Example: If a Hindu, said to a Christian, “Let’s pray to God”, then the Christian cannot pray with them because Yahweh/Jesus is not the same as Brahman Example: If a Jew said to a Christian, “Let’s pray to God”, then the Christian cannot pray with them because Jews do not believe Jesus is Yahweh (before Jesus came to earth, the Jews worshipped Yahweh, but now worship a false god/longer worship Yahweh because they do not believe Jesus is Yahweh) CHRISTIAN CULTS This brings us to Christian cults. There are many people that claim to be Christian/claim to worship the God from the Bible, but are actually worshipping a false god and false Jesus. For example; * Catholics worship a false god/Jesus—a Jesus that says, “My death is insufficient—works are necessary” * Mormons worship a false god/Jesus—a Jesus that says, “I was created and not eternal” * Jehovah’s Witnesses worship a false god/Jesus—a Jesus that says, “I a god and not the God/not eternal” So how should Christians respond if they are asked by someone (who worships a false god/Jesus) to take part in prayer with them? For instance, * If a Christian is invited to the home of a Catholic or to Mass, and the Catholic says, “Let’s pray to God”, then what should a Christian do? If they take part in prayer (an act of worship), then would they be giving a false representation of Christianity (misleading others to think the Catholic god is the one true God)? Would they be worshipping a false god (no different than praying to the Hindu god Brahman)? * If a Christian is invited to attend a wedding of a Jehovah’s Witness, and a Jehovah’s Witness says at the wedding, “Let’s pray to God”, then what should a Christian do? If they take part in prayer (an act of worship), then would they be giving a false representation of Christianity (misleading others to think the Jehovah’s Witness god is the one true God)? Would they be worshipping a false god (no different than praying to the Hindu god Brahman)? * If a Christian is speaking to a Mormon on the streets and the Mormon, “Let’s pray to God”, then what should a Christian do? If they take part in prayer (an act of worship), then would they be giving a false representation of Christianity (misleading others to think the Mormon god is the one true God)? Would they be worshipping a false god (no different than praying to the Hindu god Brahman)? RESOLVING THE PREDICAMENT First, it should be pointed out that not all Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses worship a false god/Jesus (just as not all Baptists, Lutherans and Anglicans worship the true God/Jesus). It is only those that adhere to the false teachings of these religious institutions that worship a false god/Jesus and not the one true God/Jesus. Thus, we must be careful not to judge every Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness and Catholic as someone that believes and worships a false god/Jesus Second, if a Christian is asked by someone (who worships a false god/Jesus) to take part in prayer with them (e.g. in the home, at a wedding, at a church service etc), then the Christian can say to them, “I am happy to attend your church/dinner/function/home. But I just want to let you know that I do not feel comfortable taking part in any prayer that may occur during the wedding/dinner/function. This is because I do not believe the god that you pray to is the same God that I pray to. You may not agree and believe we are worshipping the same God. But this is not something I believe. So if I was to attend, then I appreciate it if you allow me to either stand in silence during the prayer or go to another room.” Another example, if a Christian is asked by someone (who worships a false god/Jesus) to take part in prayer with them (e.g. on the street), then the Christian can say to them, “I cannot join you in prayer because do not believe the god that you pray to is the same God that I pray to. You may not agree and believe we are worshipping the same God. But this is not something I believe.” Third, as mentioned, not all Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses worship a false god/Jesus. This means that we need to discern each situation differently. For example, if one of your friends is Catholic and wants you to comfort them and pray with them, then it might be acceptable to pray. So even though your friend might be praying to a false god/Jesus, you yourself are praying to the one true God/Jesus and asking Him to guide and strengthen your friend (no different than a Believer praying for a non-believer CONCLUSION How should Christians respond if they are asked by someone (who worships a false god/Jesus) to take part in prayer with them? The answer will vary depending on the person and situation View all 4 posts TheDoctor394: While I agree with this overall, I was just wondering whether one could say that any Mormon or Jehovah's Witness could be seen as worshiping the true God. If they really are Mormon or JW, I would think that means they worship a false god. If they worshiped the one Christians believe in, wouldn't that mean they're not Mormon or JW? I'm not sure whether that would be the same for Roman Catholics, as I've been ready to say that some Catholics might be Christians as well, but I wonder if I'm being inconsistent there. Maybe it's because I see Catholicism as having a wider range of beliefs that one can either accept or reject, and it's possible that a Catholic could accept certain, non-heretical beliefs while still being part of that faith as well as the Christian one. Or maybe I'm wrong there. HydroMan: I think its possible that some ( certainly not the majority) Mormons and JWs know about the false teachings that exist in their organisation, but deliberately remain part of it in order to try and convert others to Christ and set them free from the false teachings. So on surface, they identify themselves as Mormons and JWs, but are actually saved and secretly trying to bring other Mormons and JWs to the truth. If that makes sense. HydroMan: I just think that, from time to time, we should remind ourselves that not everyone associated with one of these cults is necessarily a false believer HydroMan: This is a tricky question. Let's say you were with a Hindu, and they said, "Let's pray to God". You probably won't pray because it would give the false idea that Yahweh and Brahman are the same God. But how far do we go exactly? For example, if you were with a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness, and they said, "Let's pray to God", would you pray, or refuse to pray because you know they worship a false god, no different than a Hindu? TheDoctor394: I'd probably say something like, "I'd pray to the God I believe in, but I can't join you in praying to a god I don't believe exists." Where it goes from there, I wouldn't know. HydroMan: Thank you. This has helped me a lot. It does get more tricky in terms of how far do we go. I mean, we could argue that Catholics worship a false god and false Jesus, a god that requires works for salvation, and a god that elevates Mary to the same level as Jesus. If I was with a group of Catholics and they said, "lets pray to God", i might be hesitant because they might not be worshipping the true God. Having said that, many Catholics are saved and worship the true God, just like some Mormons and JWs probably worship the true God. Probably comes down to discerning each situation. HydroMan: I sent an email "marriage and divorce". I don't know if you will agree with it, as this is a subject that is heavily debated upon (what grounds did Jesus permit divorce, and can a person remarry after being divorced). Also, because my sister is going through a divorce, it makes it even more complicated. Having said that, despite my personal feelings on whether my sister should divorce, I am trying to be objective and base my research on what the Bible says, rather than how i feel. In essence, I believe the Bible says (1) remarriage is only permitted if a spouse has died (2) divorce is permitted if a spouse has committed adultery/fornication (divorce for any other reason is wrong, and divorce and remarrying is wrong) TheDoctor394: This is a subject I've never really looked into all that much, since it's not something that's really applied to me personally. I do agree with your understanding on what the Bible says concerning divorce, but I think there is a place for a split if one of the spouses is abusive. My view is that, while divorcing in that context could be seen as a sin, staying with the abusive spouse, and, if there are children involved, keeping them in danger, is a far greater sin. In other words, it becomes the lesser of two evils. HydroMan: I've started to share some of my writings and research on this site. Already some of the negative responses are coming through. One person saying, "talk about overthinking" . But comments like that are in encouraging because they haven't been able to debunk anything I've said. Regardless, I'll be trying to avoid reading the comments and just hope some of the things I've written might have a positive influence. HydroMan: This is also an example of the double standards atheists have. On one hand, they believe Christians live by blind faith. But when you provide evidence for why you are not an atheist, you are overthinking TheDoctor394: :-) That's actually pretty funny, an atheist accusing a Christian of "overthinking" when, as you say, we're supposed to be the ones who don't think at all. You're certainly going to cop it, but that's how it all works. I've had plenty of barbs from atheists over the years and, I suppose, I find it hard to face them nowadays. HydroMan: Yes its one of the reasons why I dont really share my research with people online. I've pretty much blocked every atheist in the religion room. But I'm trying to get out of my comfort zone. I'll post some stuff in forums, but I'm not going to respond to any of the feedback, good or bad. HydroMan: I sent an email "Did Jesus claim to be God". This is something I have sent before, but I have elaborated on it and added a lot more to it. It also covers 'the right hand of God'. It is quite long, so I understand if you dont have the time to read all of it. TheDoctor394: Thanks for all this, and it's interesting that I've never noticed the lawyer issue at all, not even from Bible critics who love to pick at it. Your explanation does make sense. HydroMan: John 5:18 says, “For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” The Jews called God their “Father” (Deuteronomy 32:6, Malachi 2:10). Yet at the same time, there were Jews that wanted to kill Jesus because He “was calling God His own Father” This is because Jesus called God “Father” in a way that made Himself “equal with God”—something that no Jew would do. If Jesus was not God (equal with God), then this would have been the perfect time to mention it/correct the Jews by stating that He is not equal with God (‘why are you trying to kill Me? I never said I was equal with God’). Also, just after Jesus “was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God” , He immediately points out that a person must “honor the Son even as they honor the Father” (John 5:23). This means that the Father and Son are to be equally honored as God because they are both God. In other words, Jesus is claiming that those who deny the divinity of the Son (dishonour the Son) are also dishonouring the Father (refusing to honour the Son as equally divine with the Father is the same as dishonouring the Father) HydroMan: This whole "Jesus did not exist/was invented" argument is still made today. It is really old and has no warrant. I sent an email to you on this (was Jesus invented), it is one way of debunking the argument (a criteria I use - motive, suspect, evidence) Also, I cant remember if I said this before, but anything I send to you, including blogs I make here, you are free to share with anyone you know (family friends etc) whether they are friends on this site or friends/family in the outside world View all 5 posts TheDoctor394: Yes, I do wonder the motivation for those who deny Jesus existed. It clearly goes against evidence and the general acceptance from the world, and does nothing for their credibility. HydroMan: There also seems to be a bias. For example, atheists don't believe in Allah. But they believe Mohammed existed and was the founder of Islam. So why do they treat Christianity differently? They don't believe in God, but unlike Mohammed, they don't believe Jesus existed and was the founder of Christianity. TheDoctor394: That's an interesting point. Maybe because Mohammed lived more recently? But still a long time ago, and there's not that much difference in time. Or maybe because he's more known for his statements than all sorts of miracles, which skeptics scorn. In other words, maybe critics of Christianity dismiss things like the gospels because there are so many elements which are unbelievable to them and, therefore, they "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Or maybe it is just bias. For whatever reasons, they hate Christianity more than Islam. HydroMan: I sent an email 'law and covenant' It relates to whether the Law of Moses (including the blessings and punishments) apply today. I always find it fascinating that those who are part of the word of faith movement quote passages that refer to blessings for those who obey the Law of Moses, but not passages that refer to punishments for disobedience. If we are not under the Law, then we are not under the punishments or blessings of the Law TheDoctor394: I've had a read, and yes, you're right. These teachers are forever talking about the blessings promised to the Jews in the OT, but very rarely (maybe never, but possibly there are occasional, brief references) do they address the punishments, even though they are, if anything, more expansive than the rewards. They are very inconsistent. As you say, if we're under the OT Law, then we get both the blessings and the punishments taught. If we aren't, then we get neither. HydroMan: I should also point out that there are laws in the OT that can apply today. But they apply, not because we are under the law, but because they (1) coincide with the law of Christ (1) are universal timeless truths. For example, the law, "do not murder", was part of the law. This applies today, not because we are under the law, but because murder is universally wrong ( murder was wrong before, during and after the laws of Moses) HydroMan: 500,000 Israelites killed? The Bible tells us that Abijah sent “400,000 chosen men” into battle against Jeroboam’s “800,000 chosen men” (2 Chronicles 13:3) and that Abijah defeated Jeroboam’s men—“500,000 chosen men of Israel fell slain” (2 Chronicles 13:17). This number seems excessive. In fact, this number is more than the loss of any single battle of World War II, even exceeds the number of deaths that resulted from the dropping of the atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. So how do we explain this? The Hebrew word elep is sometimes translated as thousand (Exodus 18:21; Numbers 10:36; Numbers 31:4-5; Joshua 7:3; 1 Samuel 23:23). However, the word elep also means company and is used elsewhere in Scripture as a reference to ‘groups’ rather than a literal ‘number’. For example, some Bible translations have translated the word elep as “clans” (Joshua 22:14, 1 Samuel 10:19, Isaiah 60:22, Micah 5:2, Judges 6:15), “family” (Joshua 22:21; 22:30), “divisions” (Numbers 1:16), and “tribe” (Numbers 10:4). Therefore, if ‘elep is a reference to a group of some sort, then the number 500,000 would actually be 500 divisions (“500 divisions chosen men of Israel were slain”) The same applies to Abijah’s 400,000 men (400 divisions) and Jeroboam’s 800,000 men (800 divisions). This reduces the number of Israelites significantly. We find a similar example with the number of people that crossed the Red Sea (Exodus 12:36-38) HydroMan: Was watching one of Cliff's videos from Give me an answer. Someone asked how Jesus (who is God) pray to God. His answer was on the lines of God the Son becoming a human, enabling Him to pray to the Father However, while this is is true, all three Persons of the Triune God "prayed" to each other before God the Son came to Earth. So its no as if Jesus only prayed to the Father when He walked the Earth. Instead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit spoke and prayed to each other throughout their eternal existence (an eternal relationship that existed prior to the incarnation of the Son) TheDoctor394: Yes, I would agree with that. I'd say maybe Cliff meant that Jesus prayed to God as part of His humanity? |
In particular, would you agree that the reason why the sky became dark was because it was a way of illustrating God's wrath on Jesus (I dont think the Bible specifically says 'why' the sky was darkened)
hydroman