 Blog PostsFriends         | The U.S is NOT a Christian nation.The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores. Respect for religious pluralism gradually became the norm. When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, for example, he spoke of "unalienable rights endowed by our Creator." He used generic religious language that all religious groups of the day would respond to, not narrowly Christian language traditionally employed by nations with state churches. The United States, in short, was founded as a Secular nation and was not founded to be an officially Christian nation or to espouse any official religion. Our government is neutral on religious matters, leaving such decisions to individuals. This democratic and pluralistic system has allowed a broad array of religious groups to grow and flourish and guarantees every individual American the right to determine his or her own spiritual path or to reject religion entirely. As a result of this policy, Americans enjoy more religious freedom than any people in world history. We should be proud of this accomplishment and work to preserve the constitutional principle that made it possible separation of church and state. Original blog source: https://www.au.org/resources/publications/is-america-a-christian-nation   StellaaRosie: Amen!! It is no longer a Christian white Nation it is America and it is diverse amen 3 years ago • Report 2 punxnotdead_sean: You wish that was true cause you're all atheists and virtue signalling proponents of religious diversity, who would rather see Satanists take over than anyone else. Shame on you!  Uncle Geo in reply to punxnotdead_sean: Your constitution guarantees freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I don't have to wish that the US is not a Christian nation because it already is not. This has nothing to do with my lack of belief in God or gods. Uncle Geo in reply to punxnotdead_sean: Edit, the American constitution guarantees......I see you're from Canada. Ravens Flight in reply to StellaaRosie: America was *never* a white nation or a christian nation... Except of course in the minds of liberals who just want am excuse to be angry for nothing.  Seraphim37: It does state during the pledge of allegiance " one nation under God" and also on dollar bills " In God we trust" so.... prairwarur: Why not just go read it all? The Preamble, The Constitution - read it. Read the Magna Carta - Simple.  prairwarur: The Declaration of Independence In Congress, July 4, 1776.~The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, laffer80: The USA was, as were the individual States, formed and created by Christians based upon Christian principles with acknowledgment of God, a professed duty to God, and - in part - for the specific reason to preserve our ability to worship God. Thank the Lord. Thank you Christian Fathers of our nation. Now, feel free to call the nation whatever you like. 😊🇺🇸🙏❤️ laffer80: MA CONSTITUTION PART THE FIRST Article III. The legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily. Any every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law. Uncle Geo: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding.... -Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams prairwarur: Jesus is about to return for His own then nothing said here will matter at all. Ask Him! Turn to Him for He alone is true. #MARANATHA Jesus loves you!  Runningman_: To be fair, the Constitution is just a legal document that describes how the government functions. They are representatives who make our laws, but they don't represent the identity of individuals. A country is defined by it's people. The religious demographic of the USA is majority Christian by a landslide. The US is conclusively a Christian nation in spirit even if it is not according to the letter of the law.  The Dark Flower: In reply to Seraphim37: Money was originally printed as "E pluribus unum" which means "One out of many". It has nothing to do with God. Our money was later printed to say "In God we Trust" which I find inappropriate considering not everyone believes in God and it's not right to force God onto others using currency that we all use. It's un-American. Also our Pledge never had "Under god", that crap was added later too. The Dark Flower: In reply to Wheelgirl & laffer: That's because those foreigners are brainwashed by Christian propaganda that this country was founded under Christian principles when it wasn't. This country was founded under secular principles and that is why we have the freedom that we have today. Yes some of our founders where Christians but not all of them are self-proclaimed Christians. They wanted a country not just for Christian people but for everyone who wants to live in a free society. This secular idea is what makes this country what it is. Christianity itself has nothing to do with it. So this isn't a Christian Nation. It's a Secular Nation. If this was a Christian nation I would be oppressed by Christian principles that I don't agree with.  DragonMystic: in reply to Runningman_Far more do NOT believe in "Christianity " , many have walked away from "organized religions" many MILLIONS. So your post is moot & meaningless. Runningman_ in reply to DragonMystic: I'm not talking about people who have abandoned their faith. I'm talking about people who, right now, profess Christianity in the USA. The data for that is 65-72% of all Americans claim to be a Christian. If you're going to have this discussion you need to do your homework. DragonMystic: in reply to Runningman_ "Christianity" outdated concept NO longer viable & FAKE to begin with .. 65%-72% BS LIE The Dark Flower in reply to Runningman_: I don't know where you got your data from, but whatever survey this data came from I was never asked to take apart of it and I know many others who didn't take part in such a survey either. So this "data" is moot and meaningless when it comes to statistics for the claim "Majority of American Citizens are Christian ". Also, there are many people I know who are just "Christian" by name and don't actually read the bible, or go to church, or practice the faith. So those who are only "Christian" by name don't count. Runningman_ in reply to DragonMystic: You're mixing your opinions in with empirical data. Yes, I get you're anti-Christian. You're entitled to that misguided opinion, but we aren't really talking about that. If you had read Flower's blog you would see that this discussion is about what kind of country the US is and I just proved that it's a Christian one.dont take my word for it, you can research this. DragonMystic: in reply to Runningman_ You're very ignorant & being an ASS in Dark Flower's blog, you need to watch your mouth & the u.s. is NOT "christian" hasn't been in a very, very long time.. "Christianity" is a FALSE concept. Neither she or myself are "misguided" we are both where we should be. You need to show her RESPECT & APOLOGIZE. The Dark Flower in reply to Runningman_: You said, "To be fair, the Constitution is just a legal document that describes how the government functions." Yes, That's correct. However, this legal document is a secular document not specifically written to be under Christian principles. This legal document does not favor Christianity over other religious faiths. This is why it doesn't represent the identity of Christian individuals nor does it represent the Christian Church. You also said, "A country is defined by its people." I disagree. A country is defined by its laws, culture, and principles. I get some religions that are a part of a country's culture but the American culture is freedom of religious liberties, freedom of speech, and more. It was designed to be secular with the limited government in mind for those who want to live in a free society and NOT a religious society that gets to dictate how an individual should or should not live by. Also, suppose the religious demographic of the USA is majority Christian, that does not make it a Christian nation. It's still a secular nation. If majority became Atheists, that doesn't make the US an Atheist nation either, it's still secular. This is what makes the country great. The Dark Flower in reply to DragonMystic: Runningman is not being an "ass" in my blog. He is simply sharing his opinion and is welcomed to do so. He hasn't disrespected anyone by calling them names. Even though I agree with you on Christianity, you need to seriously relax. Let people with different opinions express themselves freely and try respecting people you disagree with for a change. I'm glad we agree that Christianity is false and all but when you act so hostile or aggressive towards people you disagree with, they will look at me like I support it. It makes me look bad too. Please try your best to be kind to people. Try your best to be kind to my friends. Most of my friends don't agree with me and I'm okay with that. I like being around people I disagree with because it gives me a chance to have open debates. So let's try to debate in a civil manner. When we bash on people our message will just get lost. It does nobody good. Trust me. Runningman_ in reply to The Dark Flower: The way you put it sounds like the governing body defines who the people are and I wholeheartedly have to disagree with that. I think the government is secular in nature, but that obviously doesn't define me. Even if the government was a Theocracy, would they represent you even if you disagreed with them? I think not. That's my point. And while we may disagree on many points, thank you for being a voice of reason. There's no need for people to get upset and start gaslighting each other. We can look at the facts with a levelhead and form our own conclusions with the presented information.  (Post deleted by Noni71 ) WuTangForever: Agreed. Some quotes from some of the U.S. Founding Fathers. "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine. Source: Source: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine; Chapter I - The Author's Profession of Faith http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3743/3743-h/3743-h.htm "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams. Source: Source: Treaty of Tripoli (1796). https://www.usconstitution.net/tripoli.html "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law" - Thomas Jefferson. Source: Referring to English Common Law. Vol. 1 Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law (1764). Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1904, p. 459. "Even if the mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammadism [Islam] to us, he would find a pulpit at his service." - Benjamin Franklin. Source: 'Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin: 1706-1757' by Benjamin Franklin, p. 160. laffer80: To Dark Flower, You said “If this was a Christian nation I would be oppressed”. Untrue. A Christian nation can tolerate other religions and the non-religious. To say a country must oppress in order to be Christian is untrue. You said “It was designed to be secular with the limited government in mind for those who want to live in a free society and NOT a religious society.” Untrue. A government can be designed to live in both a FREE society and a RELIGIOUS society. If the Fathers were designing one (free) over the other (religious) they would not have enshrined religious freedom in the Constitution. They would have enshrined atheism like Communist countries do. You said “However, this legal document is a secular document not specifically written to be under Christian principles.” Untrue. The document was written based on Christian principles for us to live under Christian principles. An example: we are endowed by our creator with the pursuit of life liberty and happiness, as stated in the document declaring the BIRTH of this nation. The Constitution enshrines these Christian PRINCIPLES (not Christian RELIGION) into law in the Constitution. Dark, you are free to be non-religious, Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu etc. in America. The Constitution allows and ensures it. But the question is whether or not the NATION is Christian. And it is, from conception to today. So far. The liberals are desparately trying to change that, with your aid. In God WeTrust (currency). One Nation Under God (Pledge of Allegience). So Help Me God. (Oath of Office). God Bless America (Presidential speech sign off). These are not wrongful or mistakes in defiance of America or its principles. These ARE America. God bless this debate! 😊🙏 StellaaRosie in reply to laffer80: The whole world is not Christian and the whole country is not Christian this is the old time talk this is a new world this country is going to be taken over by the millennium's they are not into religion. the millenniums are not interested in people telling them you can have an abortion or you can't the millenniums are not interested in people saying black people brown people gay people our generation totally screwed up it's time to sit back and let the next generation take over enough with this Christian white Nation crop America is diverse deal with it prairwarur: As hard as the world has tried for over 2,000 years, no one can stop this phenomena called JESUS! He loves you all and He is nearer than you know. He told us ( Matthew 24 - Luke 21 ) just to name a couple, that "When you see these things happening around you look up for I am near, even at the gate." paraphrased by prair What have I been telling you all for these past 6 or 7 years now? JESUS is coming! Get ready! Maranatha Here's some more old lady music for my lovely Rose.    prairwarur: Stella, that's not what anyone is saying. The foundations of America are God founded. The signers of the Constitution were Christians, among other beliefs, but predominately Christian. The purpose of this all is freedom. God created every human being with free will. God's purpose and intention for us is to be FREE! Completely free! We were created to have freedom, to make our own choices, and to never live in captivity of any kind, be it as a slave, or enslaved to a wicked and corrupt government. God would not have us enslaved to "religion", or church, or church organization. He comes to each of us individually and personally and that is what relationship with Jesus is all about. He lives and He is there to answer whenever we choose to call. It was included in the writing to guarantee us (1st Amendment ), that government cannot suppress the freedom of Americans to worship, wherever, whenever, however they choose. People have the wrong idea about the separation clause, because it means for government to stay out of our religion, not that there cannot be religious symbols, or attitudes expressed. A congress man or President who prays is merely expressing his 1st Amendment right to do so. Nothing more, nothing less. A monument on public property is merely displaying what is usually a beautiful piece of art. If someone interprets that as any form of endorsement, then they are mistaken. It's called FREEDOM and this is one form of the wonderful America I've known. IMHO Prair prairwarur: I wish people would understand that my rights are as valuable and guaranteed as yours. Yet, there seems to be an attitude of denying any part of our past and revise it to suit certain, "feelings". But, God bless America, because we are certainly free to do and be as we choose! Amen (At least for now.) prairwarur: And, speaking of Jesus and how He comes to us as we are, here is a photo of how He came to me. Almost 17 years ago I saw the rapture happening and saw my Jesus! Call it a dream, night vision, whatever, the Lord told me to write down all I saw and was told so i would not forget one word. I went a step further and decided to paint what I saw. I had never before attempted painting, so bear with me and the childlike appearance here. Thanks, Prair prairwarur's Picture (Post deleted by The Dark Flower ) (Post deleted by The Dark Flower ) The Dark Flower: laffer80: "Untrue. A Christian nation can tolerate other religions and the non-religious. To say a country must oppress in order to be Christian is untrue." Reply: Actually I've read histories of what Christians have done to Christinaize nations and force conversion onto others. Christianity is designed to replace other cultures with itself. Many Christians have done many bad things to non-believers because of their toxic faith. We can discuss this on my next post when I bring up that topic. "Untrue. A government can be designed to live in both a FREE society and a RELIGIOUS society. If the Fathers were designing one (free) over the other (religious) they would not have enshrined religious freedom in the Constitution. They would have enshrined atheism like Communist countries do." Reply: Wrong, A free society is not ruled by the religious government. Only a secular government can allow freedom of religious liberties. The Bible state "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." In a Christian Nation you would be required to worship God of the bible and follow the Christian standards of law which would be God's standards of living. That would be oppressing to those like me who reject the existence of the biblical God and those like me who reject the Christian "moral standards". We don't live in that kind of nation. We live in a secular nation where the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all. It's because this is a Secular nation you are allowed to have this freedom. Christian standards are not forced upon others to follow because it is secular. "Untrue. The document was written based on Christian principles for us to live under Christian principles. An example: we are endowed by our creator with the pursuit of life liberty and happiness, as stated in the document declaring the BIRTH of this nation. The Constitution enshrines these Christian PRINCIPLES (not Christian RELIGION) into law in the Constitution." Reply: Incorrect, because the term "our creator" is generic and not exclusively used by Christianity. Generic religious languages like this were written so that all religious groups of the day would respond to it, and it does not use exclusive Christian language. This is why it's considered secular. "Dark, you are free to be non-religious, Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu etc. in America. The Constitution allows and ensures it." Reply: Yes, I am free because I live in a secular nation where we are allowed to believe whatever we want and are not forced to practice or follow Christian principles exclusively... Thank Lord Lucifer, and Satan that I don't live in a Christian nation where I must obey the biblical commandments that states "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." "But the question is whether or not the NATION is Christian. And it is, from conception to today. So far. The liberals are desperately trying to change that, with your aid." Reply: The USA was never a Christian Nation. It will never be. It's all Christian propaganda. This nation was and still is a secular nation since conception. Yes, I am aware a lot of Liberals are Anti-Christianity but don't forget, I am too. I think Christianity is evil. But I am a Right-Wing conservative because I believe in our constitutional rights. I believe our constitution is a legal secular document that has secular principles that are designed for anyone to live freely without being forced into religious principles. I agree with a lot of things Trump has done for our country. Especially his promotion to religious liberty. I don't care if Trump is Christian or Buddist, what I believe is everyone should be able to live freely in a free society. I'm for limited government, and more individual freedom because I don't believe in collectivism which is what Christianity is all about. As a Luciferian, I am all about individuality and right-wing politics are the only ones who support that. Meanwhile, the left is all about collectivism which I hate. "In God WeTrust (currency). One Nation Under God (Pledge of Allegience). So Help Me God. (Oath of Office). God Bless America (Presidential speech sign off). These are not wrongful or mistakes in defiance of America or its principles. These ARE America." Reply: Christian propaganda. That's what those are. It has nothing to do with America. It's a disgrace to our secular nation. God bless this debate! 😊🙏 Reply: Yes, thank you for this debate. I enjoyed it too!  The Dark Flower: Rely to Runningman_: "The way you put it sounds like the governing body defines who the people are" Reply: You completely misunderstand me then.  "I think the government is secular in nature but that obviously doesn't define me. " Reply: Which is why I said this country is a secular nation because the government and how this country was established was designed to be secular. That does NOT mean the government defines you. I'm sorry if that is what you thought. "Even if the government was a Theocracy, would they represent you even if you disagreed with them? I think not. That's my point." Reply: I'm not disagreeing with that point. "And while we may disagree on many points, thank you for being a voice of reason. There's no need for people to get upset and start gaslighting each other." Reply: I'm starting to think we aren't really in disagreement, to be honest. But, Thank you for being kind and sharing your views. : " We can look at the facts with a levelhead and form our own conclusions with the presented information." Reply: I agree! It was lovely chatting with you too! The Dark Flower: Reply to StellaBellaa: I appreciate your enthusiasm and I agree with you in this case but try to be a little less aggressive. These are my friends and I don't want them to be upset. I love them and they are dear to me. With that being said, I do believe Christianity is a dying religion. lol A lot of people I know have become atheists. The Dark Flower: Reply to CYPRESSHILLFAN89: Thank you so much for sharing this! Keep up the good work! laffer80: In response to my dear friend Dark Flower: Dark: “Actually I've read histories of what Christians have done to Christianize nations and force conversion onto others.... “ REPLY: Citing such “histories” unrelated to American history is a red herring. We are talking about America. It remains true that... A Christian nation can tolerate other religions and the non-religious. To say a country must oppress in order to be Christian is untrue. Example: America. —— Dark: A free society is not ruled by the religious government. Only a secular government can allow freedom of religious liberties. REPLY: You misquote me. I never said the government is religious. I said the nation is religious. I said the government was founded by Christians on Christian principles. I also stated why I believe so. —— Dark: The Bible states "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." In a Christian Nation you would be required to worship God... REPLY: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” is instructing what we should believe not how we should govern. No where in that quote or in the bible is it written a Christian nation REQUIRES Christian worship. —— Dark: “We live in a secular nation”. REPLY: We have a (barely) secular government. We live in a Christian nation. —— Dark: The term "our creator" is generic and not exclusively used by Christianity. Generic religious languages like this were written so that all religious groups of the day would respond to it, and it does not use exclusive Christian language. This is why it's considered secular. REPLY: It remains true that... the document was written by Christians based on Christian principles. You say the documents are secular (dictionary: not overtly or specifically religious) yet you concede that the document includes religious language. Would you concede America is a religious nation then, based on your own acknowledgement that it includes religious language? —— Dark: I am free because I live in a secular nation where we are allowed to believe whatever we want and are not forced to practice or follow Christian principles exclusively. REPLY: Stating a belief is fine. Let me know when you want to justify your belief. I still contend we are free because we live in America, a Christian nation. I gave my reasons for believing so. —— Dark: The USA was never a Christian Nation. It will never be... (and more pronouncements.) REPLY: Stating a belief is fine. Let me know when you want to justify your belief. Again. —— Dark: Christian propaganda. That's what those are. It has nothing to do with America. It's a disgrace to our secular nation. REPLY: “In God We Trust” is in fact on American currency. “One Nation Under God” is in fact part of America’s Pledge of Allegiance. “So Help Me God” has in fact been said at the Presidential Oath of Office since Washington. “God Bless America” is in fact the standard Presidential speech sign off. It is evidence of the religiosity of our nation - not evidence of Christian propaganda. Besides, before you said references to “our creator” (God) was generically religious yet here you refer to God references as “Christian” propaganda. 🤔 prairwarur: God is real and He loves you. Jesus is coming back soon but only for those who love Him. He loves you. Maranatha! Jesus is Lord! ... of all nations. It is written. Ravens Flight in reply to prairwarur: You may think jesus loves me, and I know it comes from a place of caring in your heart which I greatly appreciate and love you for  I respect that, but I disagree, because I am a sinner, for I am a pagan, I choose and prefer my other gods. He does not love me, and I do not love him. I used to love him once, more than anything, but it was one-sided love and I was blind and ignorant, not anymore. Imagine if a boyfriend made all the same demands and expectations that god does, plus was as jealous, controlling, vengeful and wrathful as god is. That would be a very toxic, abusive relationship. I have been in toxic, mentally abusive situations and relationships before with people who claimed they "loved me" yet they were controlling, manipulative, lying, conceded, and I only wish I had gotten out of them sooner, for as James 3:16 says; "For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice." and 1 Corinthians 13:4; "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant" God boasts and claims to love you, anything to make him sound better than the other gods... Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" Exodus 34:6 "The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness" But the disturbing reality of god is well recorded in the bible as well; Joshua 24:19 "But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins." Deuteronomy 6:15 "For the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God—lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth" Exodus 34:14 "for you shall worship no other god for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." Deuteronomy 32:16 "They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger." Ezekiel 16:38 "And I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy." Deuteronomy 5:9 "You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me" Nahum 1:2 "The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies." Deuteronomy 29:20 "The Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven." Your god does not love me, the bible makes that very clear, for I choose my gods and Satan over him. They (my gods) do love me and it's a love I can feel, I'm happier as a pagan than I ever was as a christian 😃 Satan has never made demands that I must follow in order to have his favour, Satan has never been jealous or demanded I not follow other gods, Satan has never threatened me or abused me like the christian god. Satan's love for me is evident just as the christian god's hatred for people like me is evident. As a former christian myself, every time I hear somebody tell me that "jesus loves you", after all the things that I've been through in life and all the ignored prayers, the one thing I can honestly know in my heart about the topic is that I've gone through my life with an open, yearning heart, and I've never been given any true love from the christian god. Proverbs 27:4 "Wrath is cruel, anger is overwhelming, but who can stand before jealousy?" Psalm 79:5 "How long, O Lord? Will you be angry forever? Will your jealousy burn like fire?" Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” I love my gods 💛 and I love Satan 🖤 I'm happy I'm no longer in an abusive relationship with god anymore, and that I have them. I'm finally happy and feel like I'm truely worth living as who I am 😊 I hope you will respect this of me as I have done with you, and know that it too comes from a place of caring in my heart. Ravens Flight: Stellabellaa: "millenniums are not interested in people saying black people brown people gay people our generation totally screwed up it's time to sit back and let the next generation take over enough with this Christian white Nation crop America is diverse deal with it." We're also sick of you saying "white people", just saying. (This post is not meant to be specifically directed at you, Stellabella, but it's directed at people in general who believe in concepts like "inherent racism", "white nationalism", "America a white country" etc.) As I said before, this country has never been a "white country" except, perhaps in the minds of a rare minority of idiot racists, but mainly in the minds of many radical leftists who either don't know American history, or simply want something pointless to be angry about. These are the same radical leftists who, every time they look at a dark skinned American citizen, they see a slave or a poor African, who they pity because they view them as inferior, which is racism at its highest concentration. A significant percentage of Millennials are biracial. How do you think it effects them when they're surrounded by these ridiculous claims of "white privilege" or "inherent racism" Seriously? So if I'm biracial one half of me is racist towards the other half while the other half of me is the victim of white privilege of the first half? And then what of my parents' biracial marriage? No, many Millennials grew up knowing first hand that, believe it or not, skin color and race don't matter. They don't. To be honest, I'm not really sure if "White America" comments are just trolling/race baiting, or if people really have such a convoluted lack of knowledge about American history... But just in case it's not trolling, I'll give you a splash course, and all for free even. The United States has never been a "white country", at all, since the day of it's founding. During the revolutionary war against Britian, 200,000 - 250,000 black men served in the Patriot military, fighting for America's independence from the British, serving for an average of about 4.5 years each, and were accumulatively responsible for 1/4 of the American Patriots' strength measured in man-hours served during the war. In other words around 1/4 of the credit for the fact this country and our flag ever even existed, belongs to the black soldiers who fought in the American revolution. Some Native American tribes also helped the American Patriots fight the British during the war. Asian Americans first fought in the American military in the war of 1812. People of just about every race fought on both sides of the civil war, with black soldiers making up about %10 of the Union's soldiers. (With many of the 3,000-6,000 Black men who alternatively fought for the Confederate side being slave traders or slave owners themselves) Slavery never existed within the United States until it was introduced here by black slave traders from Africa who had been owning and trading slaves for centuries, these slave traders, as well as various other black immigrants from Africa came here and lived on here as free men, while the slaves sold by these slave traders and their descendants remained slaves here. Many areas in the North never even had slavery, it was mostly just a southern democrat thing. Much of the North did have indentured servitude, with a black indentured servant and a white indentured servant both having the same rights (or rather lack thereof), and there were far more white indentured servants in America than both black indentured servants and black slaves combined. Like black indentured servants, white indentured servants could be bought or sold by the owner of their indenture, could not marry without the permission of their master, and did not receive legal favor from the courts. The term of indenture was legally lengthened for female servants if they became pregnant (even if they had been impregnated by their master against their will, which was frequently done to force their indenture to keep being extended). Indentured servitude was often brutal, with a high percentage of white servants dying prior to the expiration of their indentures, therefore for most white indentured servants it was lifelong forced labour from the time of their indenture. While we're at it here's a few more facts: Fact: 40-75% of white immigrants during colonial times were indentured servants. Fact: Only 15% of white people in the South owned slaves. Fact: The first owner of a slave ever in the United States was Anthony Johnson, a very wealthy black man, who owned multiple white and black indentured servants, one black slave, and two white slaves. He was also known for refusing to release his indentured servants even years after they had fulfilled their servitude contacts, essentially illegally keeping them as lifelong working slaves regardless. Once judges started to rule in his favour of keeping his indentured servants as forced lifelong labourers even despite their contracts being years long-ago fulfilled, this is actually what first started legal slavery in America. Fact: 60% of the ancestors of all the current white population in America today only immigrated here AFTER slavery was already abolished. Fact: Only 5% of the current white population in America today have ANY distant genetic ties or linage to anybody who ever owned a slave in America. Fact: In total there were a far greater number of white indentured servants than there were black slaves. Fact: Many of the descendants of those white indentured servants still live in poor communities, and still struggle financially. None of them get any sort of reparations, or federal recognition, yet they are still accused of being inherently privileged and discriminatory because of their skin color. If you do not believe any of what I'm saying, I implore you to simply research it and find out for yourself, I'm dealing with facts at the moment, I'll save my opinions for later on in this post. If you are a white American, it's statistically far far more likely that you descended from indentured servants than for you to have descended from any slave owner. Even if you do happen to be one of the %5 minority of white Americans with a slave owner in your family linage, you still probably have some indentured servants in there as well. To be fair, white Americans who are descended from indentured servants should be allowed to get reperasions from the families that descended from their ancestors'masters, and the descendants of black slaves should get reperations from all of the descendants of the white, black, Native American, Hispanic, and Asian slave owners of that time as well. Some Native American tribes owned multitudes of black slaves. Granted, you may argue that they deserve to be overlooked as slave owners, since Native Americans were wronged by white people too back in the day. Thing is, it wasn't always that black and white. Different Native tribes allied with the white immigrants to attack other tribes and snuff them out, white people, mostly indentured servants, would sometimes escape and flee, often to end up peacefully coexisting with Native American tribes outside of the colonists' territories, sometimes becoming absorbed into the tribes. My point is, racism and our history as a country has never been that black and white (no pun intended.), there was never once been a time in our history when white people as a whole were all inherently racist or where black people as a whole were all unfree victims, it's always been way more complex than that. Your home is built on land that has been stained by the blood of American soldiers of every race since the country's beginning. The fact that you would rather just sweep the countless non-white Americans who willingly laid down their lives to help build this country, all under the rug and pretend they never existed or that they didn't play a significant role in our country's founding, development, and history, is horrific. All just so you can be angry about something that isn't justified to still be angry over. The fact that you'd rather disregard the roughly 330,000 white men who slowly bled to death in agony on the battle field, never knowing if the cost of their life would be enough to end slavery, when they could have just as easily turned a blind eye (the majority of them had never even seen any black people in person before), but instead they gave up everything and fought thus giving future generations of black Americans a better life at the expense of their own, and you have the fucking audacity to call the descendants of their children, raised by their widows, things like "inherently racist"?? Go find the grave of Peter Salem, a freed black man who believed in America so much that he signed up for the Continental Army during the revolutionary war and served for 5 years, he was instrumental in the victory at Bunker Hill, and he was just one out of the over 200,000+ black soldiers who significantly contributed to the victory against the British in the starting of this country, go go tell them how much you hate the country they died to help create, while you live in the comfort and freedom that they lacked, yet they believed in the hope that their new country could be better someday, enough so that they were willing to die for it. Go find the graves of those 330,000 white soldiers who selflessly fought the civil war in the harshest conditions, day after day, week after week, month after month, but they kept going until they were killed because that's what it took to end slavery and they made that nonrefundable sacrifice. Yet you turn a blind eye to them every time you talk about "inherent white racism". You turn a blind eye on all of the soldiers I mentioned above, across all ethnicities, throughout history when you speak badly of the thing that unites them all; they all died to protect our flag, to build and improve our country that they believed in, and to give us our freedom here in the future which they didn't get to enjoy. To anyone who has the audacity to hate the American flag and the Americans it stands for; you aren't only ignorant of American history, you're Anti-American, you're as racist as any KKK member ever was, and you contribute nothing to this nation but pointless hatred and division. You don't deserve to live on American soil, and if it were up to me, you wouldn't be allowed to. laffer80 in reply to Ravens Flight: Ravens Flight... Simply brilliant post. Lol I especially like the FACT that the first American slave owner, Anthony Johnson, was a black man who owned 2 white slaves. I can see Stella now: 🤯 😂. Of course she likely didn’t read the inconvenient truth anyway. 😉 laffer80 in reply to Ravens Flight: Raven, you seem to think God does not love you because you don’t believe in Him. Wrong. He loves you anyway, just as you might still love someone who has wronged you or does not love you or does not believe in you or is a sinner. It’s one think to say you don’t believe God exists, it’s quite another to tell us or Him who or how he loves. The Dark Flower in reply to Ravens Flight: I don't think Stella is a troll. I think she just doesn't know and you did a great job explaining American History to her. Even though your explanation was long, and I already knew most of what you stated, I still enjoyed reading it all. Thanks for sharing. Also I'm glad you left Christianity and found a spiritual path that is truly your own. Even though I was never Christian before, I can understand why you feel the way you do and I respect your views. However, the way I view Christianity is that they are bible worshipers. They worship a book written by men and we all know men are capable of lying and twisting other people's words only to manipulate others. The thing I hate about Christianity and religions like it... is the fact that they are based on collectivism and not individualism. It's designed to replace other country's culture and laws with itself. It's a pretty evil book written by evil men. I'm really glad that you're free from Christianity, and it's slave-like mentality. My motto is: Follow your heart but let your mind decide. Believe what makes sense to you not what others tell you to believe. (Post deleted by The Dark Flower ) (Post deleted by The Dark Flower ) The Dark Flower: "Citing such “histories” unrelated to American history is a red herring. We are talking about America. It remains true that... A Christian nation can tolerate other religions and the non-religious. To say a country must oppress in order to be Christian is untrue. Example: America." REPLY: It's because of what Christianity has done to other nations, that a Christian nation would be oppressing since Christianity as a religion is designed to be oppressing. This WHY I don't believe America is a Christian nation because it doesn't have Christian specific values. It has secular values as I explained in this post. "ou misquote me. I never said the government is religious. I said the nation is religious. I said the government was founded by Christians on Christian principles. I also stated why I believe so." REPLY: I'm sorry for misquoting you. I think you might be misunderstanding me and I might be misunderstanding you. Please allow me to try and make my claim more clear to you: I believe if the government is religious then the nation is religious too. Vise-versa. The founding fathers were not all Christians. And even if they were, just because a nation is founded by a group of people who had a Christian background does not mean the nation itself was founded under Christian principles. America was founded under Secular Principles because it was a nation founded for those who want to live in a free society and who want to believe in whatever they wanted without the government forcing religion down its citizen's throats. This is why I keep saying this is a Secular Nation. Secular by definition is not subject to or bound by religious rule. America is not subject to or bound by any religious rule. We are all free to believe what we want. This is the position I stand by from the history I researched. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” is instructing what we should believe not how we should govern. Nowhere in that quote or in the bible is it written a Christian nation REQUIRES Christian worship." REPLY: Yes, it's instructing what we should believe which is why I don't believe America is founded as a Christian nation because I believe a Christian government would enforce this by law to force it's citizens like it has tried with other nations. "We have a (barely) secular government. We live in a Christian nation." REPLY: We have a secular government. We live in a Secular Nation. Just because we have a lot of Christian politicians doesn't mean our government is Christian. Even if the majority of the citizens were Christians doesn't make the nation Christian either. What makes this a Secular Nation is the fact that this nation is not subject to or bound by religious rule since we are all free to choose and believe whatever we want by law and the government has no right to shove religious principles down our throats thanks to our constitution being a secular document. "It remains true that... the document was written by Christians based on Christian principles. You say the documents are secular (dictionary: not overtly or specifically religious) yet you concede that the document includes religious language. Would you concede America is a religious nation then, based on your own acknowledgment that it includes religious language?" REPLY: whether the document was written by a Christian or not doesn't matter. Yes, the document does include GENERIC religious language, this is so that all religious groups of the day would respond to it which is why the document is secular... It does not narrow down to "Christianity" even if the person who wrote it might happen to be a Christian. It was written with secular principles in mind. So no, I don't concede America is a religious nation, but a free secular nation for all who come from different religious backgrounds. It's a nation for all who share the same principles of living in a free society that allows people to believe what they want to believe. “In God, We Trust” is in fact on American currency." REPLY: I'm not blind. I can read what's on the currency. My point is, this wasn't originally on American currency until much later. The original print on the American currency was "E Pluribus Unum" which means “Out of Many One” “One Nation Under God” is in fact part of America’s Pledge of Allegiance. REPLY: Again this was not the true, original American pledge of allegiance. The original went like this: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." “So Help Me God” has in fact been said at the Presidential Oath of Office since Washington. REPLY: "So help me God" is a phrase often used to give an oath, and most commonly OPTIONAL as part of an oath of office. Nobody is forced to use this phrase in a court of law. “God Bless America” is in fact the standard Presidential speech sign off. REPLY: God is a generic religious term that can apply to any religious person from any religious background. It's not exclusive to Christianity and so there for this phrase "God Bless America" is not a Christian specific phrase. Having a Christian president that uses "God Bless America" in a speech doesn't make the nation itself Christian. The President is free to express himself and speak like anyone else. This is why I hate liberals get mad when Trump says "Merry Christmas" in his speech. Trump has every right to speak, express his beliefs, and opinions like everyone else. Just because you're a President doesn't mean you lose these basic American rights. "no evidence of Christian propaganda." REPLY: "America is a Christian Nation" is the Christian propaganda. "This is evidence of the religiosity of our nation" REPLY: No, it's not... I see no "evidence". All I see is another Christian Propaganda. Another false Christian belief. We live in a free nation, not a religious nation. You're free to believe whatever you want, and I am free to believe whatever I want. You and I share the same political ideology but our views on said ideology are where you and I are different. In my opinion, Right-Wing Christian Conservatives are my Allies when it comes to politics. So please, continue to believe whatever you think this nation is founded on, as long as we agree to keep cutting taxation, deregulate democrat policy that is hurting our economy, support free speech and expression for all, and gun rights for self-preservation, and limited government then we are on the same team. prairwarur: This argument goes on and on and on. You cannot prove America is not founded on God and declares Jesus Christ as Lord, so what is the point in continuing? But,it will only be for a little while longer, if you atheists can hang in there! Jesus is about to return and all "Christians" will fly with Him. Then you can make the country anything you want. Make the world what you like, it doesn't matter. Read the Bible to see how it all ends. If you're not convinced by reading Jesus words in Matthew 24 that the time has come, nothing but the arrival of Jesus Himself will convince you, but by then, it is too late for some. TODAY is the day to ask Jesus into your life. Today is the day to seek Him and find out for yourself how "real" He truly is.  laffer80 in reply to The Dark Flower: Bottom line: You and I agree our government is secular. We disagree on whether the nation is secular or Christian. You believe the government is secular so the nation is secular - and always will no matter what. I believe there is a mountain of evidence proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles by Christian founders and that our citizens and culture have historically been majority Christian. To me that makes America a Christian nation, and probably always will. ====== DARK: It's because of what Christianity has done to other nations... REPLY: A country can be an exception - and exceptional - from all other nations. A country can be BOTH Christian AND not oppressive, even if no country was before or has been since. This is simply indisputable. That America is not oppressive indicates it is a just country, nothing more. ——— DARK: Just because a nation is founded by a group of people who had a Christian background does not mean the nation itself was founded under Christian principles. REPLY: A majority of founding fathers being Christian is just ONE piece of a collective body of evidence showing HOW and WHY i believe America became and remains a Christian nation. Not the sole reason. Christian principals - Where do you think telling the truth in court comes from? Hint: hand on the bible! (“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”. Or laws against murder (Thou shalt not kill”) or theft (“Though shalt not steal”)? Hint: The Ten Commandments sits inside the Supreme Court of the USA - the highest court in the land - as well as many other courts and public schools. Do these things - witness hand on bible, Ten Commandments in laws/courts/schools - reflect secular? Or Judeo-Christian? ——— DARK: I believe a Christian government would enforce this (“no false gods”) by law to force it's citizens. REPLY: Your belief about how a Christian government “would” act is proof of nothing to me. Sorry. ——— DARK: We have a secular government. We live in a Secular Nation. Even if the majority of the citizens were Christians doesn't make the nation Christian either. What makes this a Secular Nation is the fact that this nation is not subject to or bound by religious rule REPLY: You like “is not subject to or bound by”. I am less concerned what a nation is NOT subject to or bound by and more concerned with what a nation IS subject to and bound by. And if a nation is 100% bound to Christianity, it is a Christian nation. Same with majority. Majority of a nation, majority of its history and culture, majority of its founders and founding documents are bound to Christianity.... Christian nation. It’s not about what you are NOT, it’s what you ARE. ——— DARK: Yes, the document does include GENERIC religious language... REPLY: Thank you. At least you acknowledge that truth. “In God, We Trust” is in fact on American currency." ——— DARK: The original print on the American currency was "E Pluribus Unum" which means “Out of Many One”. REPLY: Agreed. Which reflects our our nation’s belief. As does “In God We Trust” which is why it was added. ——— DARK: Again this (“One Nation Under God”) was not the true, original American pledge of allegiance. REPLY: Agreed. And “One Nation Under God” reflects our our nation’s belief so it was added. ——— DARK: "So help me God" is a phrase often used to give an oath, and most commonly OPTIONAL as part of an oath of office. Nobody is forced to use this phrase in a court of law. REPLY: I never said anyone was forced. I just said everyone does. Well, mostly everyone. Not you I imagine. 😉 ——— DARK: (“God Bless America”). God is a generic religious term... REPLY: You acknowledge generic religious terms in documents, speeches, etc but still insist we (the nation) are not religious even generically. ——— DARK: “America is a Christian Nation" is the Christian propaganda. REPLY: if you disagree with something, it is propaganda. Got it. ——— DARK: No, it's not... I see no "evidence" (of religiosity) REPLY: You see and hear generic religious terms, God, creator... from politicians, citizens, in courts, on documents, national holidays (Easter, Christmas), after being sworn in a President goes to church, in natural disasters a nation turns to the Lord, etc etc etc. But you see no evidence. No religiosity. Got it. The Dark Flower in reply to laffer80: "You and I agree our government is secular. We disagree on whether the nation is secular or Christian." REPLY: The reason why I'm saying the nation is Secular is that the government is secular. Secular by definition means not subject to or bound by religious rule. The founders did not want America to be under a religious rule which is why we have Freedom of Religion. We are all allowed to believe and worship whatever we so wish to choose. Nobody in this country is forced to live under Christian principles. That's why America is not a Christian nation founded under Christian principles even if the founders themselves where Christian. That's all I'm saying. "A country can be an exception - and exceptional - from all other nations. A country can be BOTH Christian AND not oppressive, even if no country was before or has been since. This is simply indisputable." REPLY: I disagree based on the Christian history I've read into. What makes this nation great is that it's not a Christian nation but a secular one. If I had to live by Christian principles then I would be oppressed under the Christian regime. "Your belief about how a Christian government “would” act is proof of nothing to me. Sorry." REPLY: Just look at history. Christianity has done a lot of damage to the world. But I do admit they also have done a lot of good too but under bad intentions. "Thank you. At least you acknowledge that truth." REPLY: Of course, I never once denied it. lol "Agreed. Which reflects our nation’s belief. As does “In God We Trust” which is why it was added." REPLY: From what I read, the reason why it was added was because of the fear of communism since the Communist of the time didn't believe in God and we didn't want that in here. We are a Capitalist society after all. "You acknowledge generic religious terms in documents, speeches, etc but still insist we (the nation) are not religious even generically." REPLY: The problem with "Religious generically as a nation" is that it doesn't actually make sense. The reason why generic religious terms where used is because the nation isn't specifically Christian as you claimed. The person who wrote the document did not want to force his religion down other people's throats so he used generic terms so others could relate to him and agree to accept the document officially. Most people are spiritual or religious at the time and responded better with that kind of language. The nation itself is not religious because it's not subject to or bound by religious rule, but a lot of people who live in it are religious and that's completely fine. "If you disagree with something, it is propaganda. Got it." REPLY: I disagree with all propaganda. That includes the Left's propaganda and Racist propaganda. Christian propaganda is no exception. "You see and hear generic religious terms, God, creator... from politicians" REPLY: Yes, I do, which is why I don't see America as a Christian nation and I will never support this country to become one either. "national holidays (Easter, Christmas)" REPLY: Traditional Easter and Traditional "Christmas" also known as Winter Solstice was never Christian. In fact, those are Ancient Pagan holidays that have nothing to do with Jesus Christ and has existed before Jesus was even born. The only reason why Christianity adopted those Holidays is to push their propaganda to try to convert us pagans into their "Church" and gain influence over the natives of past nations. "after being sworn in a President goes to church" REPLY: The President has every right to go to church or not go to church after being sworn in. No President has ever been forced to go to church or believe in Jesus or the Bible. A Christian president does not make a Christian nation. "in natural disasters, a nation turns to the Lord" REPLY: I don't even know what that means. "But you see no evidence. No religiosity. Got it." REPLY: Exactly... I see NO evidence. No religiosity whatsoever. All the things you have said do not prove America is a Christian Nation. It only re-enforces the points I made. I think it's best to just agree to disagree from this point out because this conversation will be one that will never end and I'm quiet frankly getting bored of discussing something that goes nowhere.I appreciate the conversation. prairwarur: Dear Flower I hear you! This is an old, old argument that's only recently resurfaced. I'm seeing strong thoughts materializing, and I realize that we cannot agree as a "new people" in this land. What I mean by "new" is a generation I see arising with different thoughts and views. These ideas crash with what history has taught us and what foundations were laid, but it's all making more sense to me now. It was the plan, after-all. Recently I discovered that under liberal politicians the education system was changed drastically and one change was to stop teaching a lot of history, and civics, or government classes in public school. It was a big smack in the face to me when I began home schooling my children only to realize how little they did know about our history, Abraham Lincoln, The Emancipation Proclamation, etc. The important historical events, and teachings, were once standard in education and to think they were omitted somewhere along the way seemed very wrong to me. There were topics of study that these radical liberals purposely left out of their plan in favor of newer ideas, and suddenly there were teachings like Common Core that crept into the system. Most parents did not realize how drastic and unconventional these changes in education would be, until it was too late. Is the tide turning? Only time will tell, but you know what I believe and Christians will be gone soon, by what the prophets wrote. Once Christian influence is gone there will be a new and different way of life for those who rejected Jesus. If it were to be a good life, then Jesus would not have to come and "rescue" us out of this mess. There will be one more great revival that takes place first, and soon, and is even happening as we speak. It's the Great Awakening and folks all over the world are joining in this fight against evil. Light fighting darkness. It's a fight for our God given right to freedom, to be free people and live as we choose. Christians will tell you it's the "anti-christ" spirit fighting against the forces of God, dark against light, even though satan knows he already lost at Calvary. He's still going to try to take as many out as he can before his doom, but he's being met by a large army of believers who won't give up the fight. We know how to stand and stand we will. Amen I'll leave you with the words of one of the Fathers of America. These words are somewhat prophetic in my view. These righteous men who drew up our Constitution knew who the people were that would abide by these Godly principles. Shalom, beloved friend Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. ~~~ John Adams laffer80: So when all is said and done, you do not consider a country that is 100% Christian to be a Christian nation. I don’t believe it. I believe anyone claiming to hold such a view is merely being intellectually dishonest because to accept that view would collapse the premise that only a document makes a country Christian or non-Christian, no matter the make up of the citizenry’s religious beliefs, religious customs, religious culture, religious history or religious practices. And to continue a discussion with an intellectually dishonest person is folly. The Dark Flower in reply to laffer80: The country is not 100% Christian. It's Secular which is why I don't consider it Christian. If anyone is being intellectually dishonest is you. You have failed to convince me this is a Christian nation. It doesn't matter if the majority of the citizens are Christian or not. If this country ever has 90% Muslim population, that won't magically turn the nation into an Islamic Nation. If the country ever becomes 90% Atheist in population, that won't make this an Atheist Nation either. To claim that it does IS intellectual dishonesty. This nation is a secular nation because it's designed to run as a secular government. It's not a nation exclusive to Christianity and Christianity does NOT get credit for this nation's form of governance. I have already debunked your claims and theories. Please consider checking the mirror if you want to see intellectual dishonesty. The Dark Flower: And to add: Secular by definition is not subject to or bound by religious rule. America's Freedom of Religion allows all to believe what they want: This is a secular principle not a Christian principle since in Christianity you're suppose to only worship the Christian God of the bible. Our Country does not force its citizens to believe in Christian principles or rules. We are free to choose. ApprenticeAurora in reply to laffer80: Hey laffer80 I live in America and I am in no way cristian im a spiritualist and I have freinds in America that are all religion's. I my self have practiced vodou with a pristess and iv done quite a bit with wicca stuff as well with my ex. laffer80 in reply to ApprenticeAurora: Aurora, I never said or implied ALL Americans are Christian. I used 100% Christian nation as an example to demonstrate that a nation is not the GOVERNMENT, a nation is THE PEOPLE. The GOVERNMENT is just how the NATION/PEOPLE are ruled. The Dark Flower: REPLY TO Laffer: And I'm saying that a Nation IS a GOVERNMENT in which HOW A NATION is RULED. It doesn't matter if majority of the people are Christian or not Christian. A Christian Nation implies that a Nation is ruled under Christian rule. A Secular Nation implies that a Nation is NOT subject to or bound by religious rule. This is why America is a Secular Nation because it allows for Religious liberty; The government does NOT force Christianity and Christian principles down its citizen's throat. A Secular Nation such as the US allows for a free society to prosper. laffer80: My last word... Mike Pompeo, July 16, 2020: “Our founders recognized the existence of God-given, unalienable rights, and designed a durable system to protect them.” The Dark Flower in reply to laffer80: "God-given, unalienable rights" has nothing to do with Christianity specifically. Whether it was given by God or not is not relevant to the core message. The point of the message is human rights are natural rights that no man should be able to infringe upon and should be protected at all costs. This core message is a secular ideology which is what makes the USA a secular nation. The nation is secular because it was designed to be a nation for all who wish to live in a free society that's not subject to or bound by religious rule. The concept of God is not exclusive to Christian dogma. This nation was never founded to be a Christian nation because the government was never designed to enforce Christian laws and beliefs down its citizen's throats. This nation was not designed to be bound by Christian rule and I hope it NEVER will. The damage Islam has done to the middle east, Christianity can do to the USA. Thankfully, Christianity is declining in America so it will not jeopardize our free nation. Sadly, it's the Democrats that are the real problem for brainwashing our people into jeopardizing our free nation. What we need is more Atheists and Pagans to fight for our freedom by joining the Republican Party and yes, even Libertarian party. Democrats is a political threat, but so is Christianity. So I will fight this Christian propaganda as well as Democrat Propaganda to save our country. Ravens Flight: It's funny how people pick and choose what parts of history they want to acknowledge to fit their narrative rather than accepting it for what it really was as a whole. Many of our founding fathers were philosophical men who had various spiritual beliefs, it was not uncommon for colonists to have, for example, deist views. Somebody mentioned "in god we trust" existing on US money and "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. These are not laws, nobody is legally bound to accept them nor does it carry any significant impact on anybody's life here, they are simply examples of monotheism existing in American culture. Monotheism isn't exclusive to christianity or the bible. It exists around the world in an array of different cultures. It's normal to see local cultural beliefs reflected in culture, in sayings, as place names etc in an area, even long after those beliefs no longer exist in abundance there. There are many place names, common sayings, symbols etc in America which come from pagan, Native American, and an array of other various cultural beliefs systems. Just because a "God" is mentioned on your money doesn't make your country any more christian than all the place names originating from pagan gods would make it a heathen country. Even Jerusalem is named after a pagan god; "In ancient times, it was common for towns to be named for the town’s main shrine and the tutelary deity worshipped therein. Thus many of the towns and cities mentioned in the Bible, even those said to have been home to Israelites, have the names of foreign gods embedded in them. In some cases the names of these places are in use to this very day, idolatrous deity and all. This is the case with Jerusalem, which the Bible and 14th-century tablets found in Amarna, Egypt, confirm was inhabited by Canaanites before it became the capital of Judah. The name of the city was very likely originally Ir Shalem (“The City of Shalem”), likely because the central shrine of the city was dedicated to the god Shalem. Shalem, aka Salem, is known to us from the writings discovered in the ancient city state of Ugarit, in today’s Lebanon. He was the personification of the Evening Star." And of course we all know many christian holidays and their traditions are based on pagan holidays and traditions. My point being, America isn't a christian nation just because American culture has a certain amount of christian influence. "in god we trust" being on your money is basically just social-cultural graphological art. It has exactly the amount of influence over you and your life that you choose to make it have and no more. Same with "under god" in the constitution. Left-over traditional verbage intended to portray a tone of solidarity much like taking an oath on a bible. It's simply symbolic, you don't need to be a christian to participate, and it has zero impact on your day to day life or on how the country is run etc. The truth is, statistically in America, Christianity is a dying religion that every year inches closer to becoming a thing of the past, even after it has become mostly obsolete, American culture will still hold trances of christian influence and tradition for ages to come, just as it still holds ancient pagan traditions from thousands of years ago. That's how culture works, they build over time. But the fact remains, as it has always and always will, that America is NOT a christian nation. By the way, speaking of our founding fathers supposedly being christians, that is highly debatable, some were deist, which many, particularly Bible-based christians, would argue is *not* really christian, but simply monotheistic, perhaps even heathen monotheistic. Thomas Jefferson himself described the Bible as containing "the dung of ancient political agendas." It is he who coined the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" in a letter to Baptists. Also, "During his 1800 campaign for the presidency, Jefferson even had to contend with critics who argued that he was unfit to hold office because of their discomfort with his 'unorthodox' religious beliefs." Thomas Jefferson was an open minded man who believed in the human right to practice freedom of belief and spirituality, and that is the very principle that the United States was founded on. The Dark Flower in reply to Ravens Flight: You're correct. Thank the Dark Lord that America is NOT a Christian nation.  Hail Satan! The Dark Flower: Honestly, we need to be careful and make sure America NEVER because of a nation of any particular religion. We gotta make sure it remains Secular if we care about every human being having a right to practice freedom of belief and spirituality otherwise we will lose that right. (Post deleted by Ravens Flight ) Ravens Flight: One thing that many people fail to consider is that if America ever became a christian nation, most christians would be negatively impacted by it due to the diversity that exists among christian denominations. For example let's pretend that America became a Catholic nation, I think it's fair to assume that this would cause conflict among protestant christian citizens. Even if America became a protestant nation, not only would it cause issues for Catholics, but also for other protestant denominations that differed etc. Tithe may become mandatory and even tax money may be tithed, giving the church in power large amounts of mandatory funding while other denominations would be left on their own. I think it's reasonable to assume a christian nation might make the ten commandments mandatory laws, meaning that in a Seventh Day Adventist nation, going to church on Saturday, not Sunday, would be mandatory (likely same case for a Jewish nation). Even if the ten commandments weren't implemented as laws, a religious nation would still, to some extent, be effected by that religion's moral beliefs. A Seventh Day Adventist nation might well also implement prohibition. A Jewish nation might systemically do away with christmas in favor of hanukkah. Who knows, it's even hypothetically possible that a mormon nation might experience a resurgence of polygamy and make it legal. It's all just speculation of course, but my point in it is to show am example of how a christian nation would certainly be a divided, religiously discriminatory nation, and not just between christians and non-christians. A christian nation would be bitterly divided among the christian populations as well. A free nation doesn't have this kind of division, because it allows for individual beliefs. Many of America's founding fathers were not christians, and had witnessed religion be forced onto people politically, that's one of the reason many immigrants came to America as indentured servants back during colonial days, to escape from religious nations. America was built to be a free nation that, while not suppressing religion, also did not have religious political ideologies that would encroach on this freedom. Protection for the right to independent religious freedom and individuality was literally built into the United States when it was founded. The Dark Flower: America is NOT a Christian Nation. America is a Secular Nation. If you support religious freedom and religious liberty, then you support secular government. There is no such thing of freedom of religion without a government that is free from religion.  (Post deleted by Irvarius ) Irvarius: It can be. And might be. I could probably pull it off. By myself. Come. Try me. I'm not God is Real. I know I'll win. Brute force intellectual power and science. Theology is fun.  Super Esquire: Belief in creator is central to the declaration of independence....we are endowed by a creator with inalienable rights laffer80: Ugh. Even blocking Dark Flower doesn’t end this nonsense. Dark Flower, please block me. Then maybe this stupidity will go away once and for all. Thanks. The Dark Flower in reply to laffer80: Wow... I'm surprised you're still getting notified even after blocking me. I think you should message a Wireclub Staff member to see if they're able to help you stop getting these notifications. Good luck and best wishes! |
