If the stars fell: you expect us to have an excessive amount of concern for your well being while having zero regard for ours, and not only that but completely disregard any point of view from a white person, particularly as a white male.We have no voice, we dont even have a seat at the table... and our concerns and well being is dismissed out of hand by poisoning peoples minds with the notion that we already have all the power therefore our suffering isnt a priority.
Their well being isnt any more important than ours.
It also implies that black people are incompetent children that have no agency or personal accountability for their own success or failures. The perpetual victims that can never be appeased regardless of how much you concede. I personally also find that racist...
how many times does it has to be said that we should treat people as individuals based on their individual merit? it seems like it should be obvious... but people still go out of their to set themselves apart from the masses, self segregating then demanding some perceived "Equality" while thinking they deserve constant preferential treatment.
It's bullshit, and its not the path to equality, and the more we constantly set ourselves apart with stupid labels the harder and longer the road will be.
Nicotina: If you feel as though you have no voice, no seat at the table, that your pain is seen as inconsequential then you are starting to understand how many black people have felt for years. No one is dismissing your pain, no one is saying that you don't count, no one is saying that you are personally responsible for all racism. What is being asked of you is to acknowledge the pain of others without making the situation about yourself.
Mew_ in reply to Nicotina: I understand that too but I think in order to stop the racial tension and biases , we have to retrain how we view each other in the first place. Always being the victim or blaming others keeps the racial tension and division going. If only we were all intelligent enough at once to see it.
Nicotina in reply to Mew_: I think it important to remember that those who are victims are not suffering due to a "victim mentality", they are suffering due to victimisation. I really do not understand why some people are not willing to acknowledge the pain of others, to take that pain seriously, and just listen. Any group that has a history of being repressed must feel as though they do not matter to the general public. If we take time to just listen, to acknowledge that their pain is real, to be the ones who choose equality then we will all have a better quality of life.
Nicotina in reply to If the stars fell: Exactly! If we dismiss the pain of others then we are dismissing them as human beings. To be united means that we care for each other, listen when a fellow human being is hurting, treat each other with compassion, do not make suffering a competition, stand up for the oppressed. We must stand up for the oppressed if we desire equality.
E s s e n c e: What I've seen so far in the media and in chat rooms the pain of others is used as a competition, my people have suffer the most so my suffering is more important and valid than yours.
I've seen how some charters have become the moralistic bigot brigade. How even if someone says anything where the minority is part of the individual and collective responsibility of an outcome; they jump accusing others to be racist, and justify their bigot behavior. Ironically, they've the delusional perception they're the good people by acting vile to those who in their mind they don't have the right to voice their perceptions.
E s s e n c e: I personally see that one sided perspective of the whole human experience is the reason why we can't understand one another, as well the human need to be right is a powerful force of egocentristic need where we stop listening and just want to be heard.
I dare to ask, what does it say about ourselves when we have an issue in creating the space for opposition to have a voice so we can understand? Understanding DOESN'T mean one is justifying, and one sided perspective is distorted. Truth has at least 3 parts, ours, others, and the merging of both. Just a thought...
Nicotina: Eve, it costs nothing to acknowledge the pain of others. Of course there are people in chat rooms that seek to divide. Choosing to acknowledge the pain of others does not distract from our humanity, in fact it allows us to care deeply for our fellow human beings.
If the point of a debate is who is who. What's the point really? If the sum total legitimacy of (say) a man's opinions on women's rights is nil because he is male, despite his position being favorable to feminism; the thrust of social justice seems to backfire.
tularcitas: I'm not good at intellectualizing like I did when I was younger...For me, it gets down to this..Would I trade being a white woman in America for being a black woman...the question is, if not, why not?
E s s e n c e in reply to tularcitas: I wouldn't have any issue trading my place with anyone in America; unless I lose the economic and health privileges, as well, the physical agility I posses, then I do...
If the stars fell: mutual consideration is necessary... you want me to care about you, but you dont care about me... you want me to give a mile, and you wont even give an inch... we ALL should be helping EVERYONE... if you actually cared for us i think you may find a lot more people would be willing to care about you too... as it stands that is not the narrative, quite the contrary in fact. The more you paint us the enemy, the more of an enemy we will become... and in the process you yourself become the monster you are so opposed to...
PyroclasticFlo: wtf are you talking about, star? who said anything about enemies? who painted you as anything resembling an enemy? a tad self absorbed perhaps but certainly not an enemy.
If the stars fell: its not about you specifically pyro, its about the common sentiment. its quite obvious to me who is being blamed for everything... and though you dont personally do that so overtly you are also guilty of progressing the idea that white people are held to a different standard than everyone else... rather than treating people as individuals.
i have NEVER in my life treated someone as greater or lesser for the color of their skin, i ask for no special consideration, and i treat everyone as they deserve based on their own actions... it doesnt seem fair that i am not also held to this same standard.
If the stars fell: and by the way... talking about "white privilege" is overt, open, and socially acceptable discrimination. It is INTENTIONALLY dripping with venom, and serves only to widen the gap when we should be trying to close it...
PyroclasticFlo: i don't know how to get around your self obsession, If. this really isn't something to take personally or to blamed for. i finally clued into my "white privilege" when it came attention that Walmart locked up cosmetics meant for women of color but not the cosmetics meant for white little me. obviously the assumption is that women of color are more likely to steal. see what i mean?
If the stars fell: they lock up the shit that gets stolen the most... why do you think that is? do you believe they did that simply to discriminate? how do you resolve that? if it is more commonly stolen, whos fault is that?
its multi faceted and should be approached more precisely instead of painting entire groups as malicious, guilty, or incompetent... this applies in all directions.
tularcitas: We could also explore biases within one "race"..let's take the white race in America. People from the south are sometimes looked at as lesser by people in the Northern and Western states. Southerners are thought of as less intelligent because of their southern drawl, while Northerners are thought of as snobby with their noses in the air. And not to forget people from within one particular demographic. Physically attractive people are sometimes looked at more favorably than "unattractive people" (movie stars, anyone?), people who are on the thinner side are seen as "better" than overweight people..it goes on and on. Human nature is to dialectically define some people as "better" by making other's "lesser". I wonder if the human species will survive long enough to leave the tribal,us and them, mode as an ancient human failing?
Wasted Wizard: Stars is bang on point "its multi faceted and should be approached more precisely instead of painting entire groups as malicious, guilty, or incompetent... this applies in all directions." This is what they dont get, they think its ok to generalise others and be racist to solve racism shoutin white privilege . This obviously not going to stop racism will only make it worse creating more hate and division. I really think this is the rulers twisting a good idea like racial equality and ruining it with actual racism. Which pyro and others seem content with pushing on us.
If the stars fell: its unfortunate that you arent even open to hearing an alternative perspective about it, as i said initially,its just dismissed out of hand and essentially ignored... and yet we wonder why this never gets resolved.
treating people differently based on the color of their skin is wrong, period... reacting to a truth about reality is another matter... just because half of all murders are committed by black people in the usa does NOT mean you should treat ALL black people as murderers. But you would be a fool to completely ignore blatent problems such as this... dismissing any level of criticism or rejecting any notion of mutual empathy does nothing but make this cycle endless.
you let me know when calling white people privileged solves the problem of racism... because its clearly obvious, and im TELLING you right now that its discriminatory and viewed as an insult by most people because of the far reaching implications behind the statement.
but what do i know, im just a privileged white and i have all the power, so why should anyone care about my opinion? lol
If the stars fell: for the record, we are not equal, and we never will be... its not even about equality, its about meritocracy... bad people should be treated as bad people, if the numbers pan out unfavorably against your "tribe" thats not the fault of the individual that had nothing to do with it... which is why its so important to treat people as individuals.
the expectation that the outcomes for all groups will be the same regardless of additional information that modifies the variables is just unrealistic and essentially impossible.
Nicotina in reply to If the stars fell: I think the point is that white people in the USA tend to have a more fortunate start in life. Those who have privilege are not bad people due to having a privilege. I used to be offended by the term BLM until I took the time to learn more about where the pain is coming from. Saying BLM does not take away the validity of my life. Saying that White Privilege exists does not mean white people have it easy and have never suffered in horrific ways. It speaks to the fact that many black people start the race a considerable distance behind the start line as a function of society and historically racist laws. If we wish to work towards a more equitable society then we need to understand that we can take measures to help those who are at a disadvantage without placing blame on ourselves or each other. White Privilege describes a function of a society, not the individuals. It is not a personal attack against a white person. Once I understood and felt I was not being attacked I saw that I had an opportunity to improve society.
Wasted Wizard: I think the people who see themselves as having white privilege come from rich families at least home owners who probably have acquired their wealth through ill gotten means over the centuries. But it still doesn't mean its because they white. Its because they r the greedy privileged elites. And these kinda people thinking others have same privilege they have.
Wasted Wizard: They wont give up thier inheritance tho to solve the problem of inequality. Hell no they wanan group all the while people together rich and poor and make them take blame for thier greedy families actions lol funny nico
Wasted Wizard: Yes and ur privileged is based on ur family stacking cash u say miners to show u are from low beginning. Ur privilege is based on their wealth if u was at the bottom u would not feel privileged nicotina
Wasted Wizard: Ur white privilege statements do not do anything to take away the wealth ur family has accumulated which made inequality between races. So while u sit on the profits of ur white families wealth and privilege as u say, understand i do not. Im from the bottom where where we dont have this privilege and it why its from for u to call it white privilege instead of middle class or privilege that comes from your wealth not ur race.
If the stars fell: it has far more to do with power and resources than it does about race... people have a tendency to oversimplify causation. It is incredibly apparent that the people with all the power are intentionally turning us against each other so that we are not strong enough collectively to do anything about it... which is why i said we are stronger together... but again thats a two way street, people have to care about each other mutually, not just have positive or negative bias against people for things they have no control of.
we are turning allies into enemies out of spite, revenge, and ignorance... and because of this we will not be strong enough to resist the real enemy.
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: Im surprised and saddened that you do not understand that a person can experience living âat the very bottomâ as you call it due to unforeseen events. You have made this into a competition, you have made this into your own little pity-fest, you have acted in a rude manner and name called. There certainly is one area of humanity where you truly are at the very bottom.... compassion.
Wasted Wizard: Nico ive seen u talk shit for days mate, tellin me "dont you even dare say slavery not real" like what kinda ridiculous person are u. To even make tht statement or assume i think tht based on me not liking racist statements like white privilege
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: I said âdonât you dare say that England did not benefit from the slave tradeâ. If youâre going to quote me, please be accurate.
Wasted Wizard: Your privileged because ur family saved money idk how they got tht money but all they did was save it so fair play to them.you have privileges i domt because ur family had wealth. Your family would get lesser jail sentances because of their wealth better education better health care. Is any of this so far because they white? Ur very twisted liberal to think its ok to say white privilege is a thing not only do u belive it u have fought to say u have white privilege for days lol andd obviously the right wing has done this too u made u think all this ridiculous shit n forget why u actually have privilege. You happy to blame poor white people for this and forget its u who are the privileged elite because of ur family who saved money, so blame ur own first before u declare a whole race of people at fualt
Wasted Wizard: Nico and pyro u both haven't been able to refute what we say u ignore it to keep badgering on about white privilege. We put forth our arguements against it which u unable to refute a single point its why pyro has lost a friend of four years lol and its also why i dont mind callin u both fkin idiots now lol
Nicotina: âwhite privilegeâ does not mean that âall white people are privilegedâ. As I said, I can explain it for you but I canât understand it for you. đ¤ˇââď¸
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: According to the U.S. Census Bureau, âIncome and Poverty in the United States: 2018â
Overall Poverty Rate: 11.8% (38.1 million people) Percentage of people who fell below the poverty lineâ$25,465 for a family of fourâin 2018
Twice the Poverty Level: 28.9% (93.6 million people) Percentage of people who fell below twice the poverty lineâ$50,930 for a family of fourâin 2018
Half the Poverty Level: 5.3% (17.3 million people) Percentage of people who fell below half the poverty lineâ$12,730 for a family of fourâin 2018
Child Poverty Rate: 16.2% (11.9 million people) Percentage of children under age 18 who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Womenâs Poverty Rate: 12.9% (21.4 million people) Percentage of females who fell below the poverty line in 2018
African American Poverty Rate: 20.8% (8.9 million people) Percentage of African Americans who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Hispanic Poverty Rate: 17.6% (10.5 million people) Percentage of Hispanics who fell below the poverty line in 2018
White Poverty Rate: 8.1% (15.7 million people) Percentage of non-Hispanic Whites who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Native American Poverty Rate: 23.7% (600,000 people) Percentage of Native Americans who fell below the poverty line in 2018
People with Disabilities Poverty Rate: 25.7% (3.8 million people) Percentage of people with disabilities ages 18 to 64 who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Nicotina: Those who are white have the lowest Poverty Rate in the USA. There are other instances where white people fair much better than non-white. Not once have I blamed a white person for lack of equity. What I am saying is that statistical evidence proves that there is an inherent privilege associated with skin colour.
Wasted Wizard: I agree with the figures nicotina and that we need equal opportunities. U are taking this data and saying it is purely to do with colour n race. U are from older generation where it was ok to be racist casually, the younger people today we have it set into us how not to be racist and not treat People different based on their colour. First rule of doing tht is not to generalise people based on a percentage. Once u do this it's racist no matter what race. There white people who have privilege of money an wealth ,but it has nothing to do with them being born white or i would have the same privilege and wealth as u which i haven't. U said urself not all white people privileged now then u need to stop using the term white privilege and state its rich white people not poor ones. All of the things u apply to being white and privileged can be applied to ur family having wealth.
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: 1st off, I never think any kind of racism is acceptable. I'm looking at the numbers as purely statistical data. They do not reflect a persons worth but they do identify where there are issues. I think you are understanding the word "privilege" different than I. Society tends to identify people by their physical appearance. For instance if there is a lost child the colour of their skin, hair, and eyes will be mentioned for identification. In no way is such a description racist, it is a matter of fact. The chances are that a white person is better off financially than a poc (person of colour) as shown in the data. It is because humans tend to categorise things to explain our world and society that we do see skin colour, so if the reality is that poc are less likely to have the financial ability than a white person society tends to treat the poc as the lessor. I absolutely agree that we should not treat people differently due to their skin colour. We need to recognise where the inequalities lie and work to change them.
I really do understand your frustration with the phrase. I have also been at the bottom with no home, no food to eat, the victim of ongoing abuse. It took a lot of work to recover. The BLM movement is not about me though, it is about creating equality which seems to be what both of us would like to see become a reality.
Wasted Wizard: Yes there a reason u call it white privilege and not black underprivileged. You dont understand nico because uve never not had to be racist probably due to ur privileged upbringing with the miners i doubt u been around many different races. From a suburban family in UK to move to Canada . Hmm tht pricey shit and well done to u. But this kinda privileged lifestyle probably means u not have to deal with other races much. I would think that's why u dont understand the seriousness of using a statement based on a persons race and how tht is detrimental to society as whole. Those miners did well lol
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: Well, we left England because there were no jobs in my dad's field. He was a draughtsman and the Canadian company paid for our move. I live in one of the most culturally diverse cities in Canada. The majority of people living in this city are not born in Canada. The 2016 census shows that visible minorities account for over 70% of the population. I'm not sure where you got the notion that miners are well off. During the miners strike many lost their homes, and much more. It seems that your assumptions about me are often incorrect.
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: You probably haven't visited Canada. According to the 2011 census - out of all regions, London had the smallest percentage of White British people, at 44.9%. Which would mean that 55.1% are visible minorities. The city I live in 2016 census shows that visible minorities account for over 70% of the population.
Once again you assumed things. I stated that I come from a family of mostly miners. Both my grandfathers worked in the mines. Many in my family were miners or worked in cotton mills. I come from the industrial north east, Lancashire.
I have no idea how my dad being a draughtsman precludes him from being a humble modest person.
A serious discussion based on facts and not your assumptions would be a refreshing change. I am not hopeful of such an event.
Wasted Wizard: Ur minorities are the majority sure thing babe and yes uve have shit over ur fathers n granpas work by saying it down to thier white privilege that they got by and not due to thier hard work tht made sure u could live privileged life in canada đ
Wasted Wizard: According to the 2011 census, over 36.7% of the London residents or 2,998,254 people are foreign-born, which is the second largest population of immigrants in the world right behind New York.
Nicotina: Statistical Proof https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/prof/details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=3521010&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All Name of Source - Census Profile, 2016 Census, as compiled by https://www12.statcan.gc.ca
Wasted Wizard: Ur confirmed tht ur familys wealth wasn't down to them being white but u saying urs and others r like how disrespectful to ur granpa mining in cave so u could have had a family home n nice life but u shit on tht saying they only got by because they white and tht it unlikely to happen if u black. This is why u racist u see urself up high for what tho
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: Once again you assuming things I did not state. There should be some help available for your delusions or lack of cognitive ability. Good luck,
Wasted Wizard: Neither does a white woman hating tht her granpa worked hard but oh well lol if he was black u wouldn't be privileged righr? Ur so unlucky đ
Wasted Wizard: I think u do hate white people to generalise them and also shows u racist to black too looking down on them like they lesser thsn u because ur white n full of privilege that comes with it. You are very low person nico to state these things so freely and u not even aware u doing so
Wasted Wizard: But as i said u would be too cowardly to say anything liek tht. You think u are a liberal person who cares about others but yet defines them and genralises them by statistics ur scum okay
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: Ah, now I know why you do understand my points. You are not able to intellectualise the topic nor think abstractly.
Wasted Wizard: Ur think ur better thsn people lol tht u had it better coz u white how stuck up are u to actually think tht. In reality u have 0 privileged put on rags n see tht cops dont treat u like dirt. Ur lucky ur granpa sweat for u u should appreciate his hard work not degrade it by saying u only got to where u are coz u white ur mad disgusting nico u n pyro. Pyro might actually owe her wealth to slave trade lol being in the south an all you really need to check yourselves before u start checking others for privilege maybe u could give some of ur wealth back! Thats a crazy thought eh
Wasted Wizard: So u have fallen basically and are not privilege in fact uve lost privilege since ur granpa sweat in the mimes tht very interesting nico i wonder what it shows about ur statistics
Wasted Wizard: U or ur family must have really fked up to gown down in class from home owners, if only u had a magical white privilege to stop it happening đ¤
Nicotina in reply to Wasted Wizard: Once again, white privilege is not about individual white people, it is about aggregates and how that effects others.
Wasted Wizard: Its sad uve lost the privilege of wealth tht ur family had by ur statistics u should have improved ur wealth dude to ur white privilege. U must have been really lazy or done nothing with the privilege thy gave u. I guess it shows u can go down in class even if u white i wonder why the privilege didnt make it easier for u đ loser lol
PyroclasticFlo: i guess women of color suddenly got more honest.
NEW YORK â Drugstore chains Walgreens and CVS Health say they will stop locking up beauty and hair care products aimed at black women and other women of color, joining Walmart in ending a practice at some stores that has drawn the ire of customers.
Wasted Wizard: I think black people might find u offensive. stockings up on black beauty products? Yay inequality and racism over! Whatu wasting ur time reading tht shit for
Wasted Wizard: This why i think u racist pyro its like u dont get it what racism is lol not about having make up on shelf and you guess women of colour got more honest? I think ur hill billy side is showing pyro đ
tularcitas: I can share this, for what it is worth. I am white and my first boyfriend is African American. He was the nerdiest man I have ever known (even more so than Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory). Twice, for no reason at all, we were stopped,while driving, by the Berkeley police..yes, liberal Berkeley...and they made him go through the usual routine...see if the lights, etc. worked on his car...this is commonly known as Driving While Black...the last time, the cop asked me " Are you okay Maam?".
Nicotina: Thank you wiz for displaying Cognitive Dissonance. " Pyro might actually owe her wealth to slave trade lol being in the south ..." - wiz " I think ur hill billy side is showing pyro" - wiz
Nicotina in reply to tularcitas: The assumption by the police is that somehow you are not OK if you're with a black male? I know it is anecdotal however, I have never heard a white woman be asked if she is OK during a traffic stop if the driver was also white.
Wasted Wizard: And nico stop replying to my messages u said u felt i was stalking u then stop talkin to me u stupid bish lol but if bot ill remind u how u racist again đ¤
E s s e n c e: What I've come to realize that we gravitate or react to people who have same attributes and inner states than ourselves. There's absolutely nothing wrong with our initial reaction, the initial reaction tells me what I need to correct about myself; however, how I react to it, it does reveal my true condition.
So, here's a conundrum created by ourselves, due to one's centralized perception of the self, the justification of one's behavior towards those who create frictions or are our opposition.
This shows that seemingly good people are willing to act horrible against others who don't share the same perspective, and consider themselves good. This is truly what's scary of our centralized perception of the self.
I see this was a platform to express openly with maturity and civility what is been polarized socially. But as usual the same chaotic characters have a tendency to surface, it takes one to see one, I'm a chaotic individual that recognizes my kin. May we find peace within ourselves to create the pace in our environment. I'm at war within...
Seiren: We must examine the macro- narrative and compare it fairly with our own micro- narrative.
Itâs also important to understand how social class, race, and gender all intersect when examining this issue from the macro perspectives of sociology (human social behavior) and political science (power, who has it, and what are they doing with it?)
Political science: Recognize that on a global, macro-level, wealthy (social class) white (race) men (gender) own the majority of the planetâs resources (physical and financial). Wealthy white men USED TO control the content of the worldâs ONLY communications access, through news broadcasting and newspapers.
That has since changed with the advent of social media. Right now, I see a lot of average (social class) white men feeling something that Black people and white women have felt throughout history; Irrelevance. Uninitiated. Deficient. They think this is oppression, but average to poor (social class) white men have actually been oppressed in other ways for a lot longer.
I also see a lot of average white men seeing the BLM and #MeToo movements, accepting and realizing that the most elite and wealthy white men are ultimately the ones to blame, and then doing their part to support the social movements. Because they *relate enough* on the social class level.
I recognize on a personal, micro-level, that poor (social class) white men with no socioeconomic standing to speak of can feel extremely marginalized lately; and you can feel that hurt. I feel pretty hurt and marginalized at times as a poor southern white person when I see other more socially comfortable white folks making poor southern folks into punchlines. I feel marginalized when I might lose out in job opportunities because I refuse to curb or modify my very mountain accentâwhile still living in the mountains, no less! Because I donât sound trendy enough? Because I patently refuse to code switch?
We can feel that, but we canât let it manifest into a narrative as anything close to the persecution Black people have endured for literal centuries.
Yours, and my, individual experiences donât negate the global macro-level observable pattern of racism that has been documented and corroborated repeatedly right before our very eyes. You *must* realize how race issues actually intersect with lower end social class. You *must* realize that poor black people typically have had it worseâand in particular they face more adversity within socioeconomic mobility.
I was born a poor southern white woman who grew up without much of an education during my formative years. By all accounts I should find myself pitted against any and all telling me I have it easier because Iâm white; and yet Iâm not pitted against anyone who says that. Because I recognize what ultimately divides white folks from anything is class, and that division is between white folks; and though there are intersections, race is just a scapegoat.
I often revisit FDRâs New Deal for historical perspective; why was that package of social programs enacted so expediently? Because it was rich white folks being forced into helping poor white folks. Race was barely a whisper yet. âWelfare Queenâ wasnât yet a political talking point to stymie social benefits.
As we know, government entities and private enterprises are inseparableâit took FDR a longer while than it should have for him to create workerâs right standards (no child workers, no 80 hour stretch outs, better safety regulations, etc.) because mill ownerâs were very powerful and very loud, and they wanted to squeeze every dollar they could from their workers. Check out the Honea Path massacreâhow mill owners had local PD out to intimidate workers and disband worker strikes, and (in this case) with lethal force.
At this time, Jim Crow laws made it so poor whites could feel a prickle of superiorityâof prideâby virtue of being white. Dirt floors, malnutrition, living on a mill hill 10 to a room? Hey, at least you were white.
I recognize that I have far more in common with my southern Black working class/blue collar neighbors than I ever would a white elite New York democrat who has opportunistically tumbled and failed his way into the Oval Office. Or any wealthy white person, northern or southern, for that matter.
And you do, too, Stars.
So when I hear Black Lives Matter, I see a woman murdered in her bed (Breonna Taylor) and a scared man calling for his Mama (George Floyd). I see my own family, but then I know in my heart this would never happen to them because we are white. That alone is privilege. I was taught to stand up for people who donât get a fair shake. I stand up for my own self, I stand up for them. Hell, stars, I stand up for you.
But average white men standing in opposition to (or denying the need to) the call for equality for Black people only perpetuates the original discord sown by wealthy/elite white men since pre-industrial times.
Ultimately, we are a faceless labor force; a living resource of comprised of many; existing, fighting each other, distracted; we, the many, working hard for our so called comforts while the biggest cuts are funneled into the pockets of the few (wealthy/elite white men).
Wasted Wizard: So like ty seiren for making such a detailed post and i agree with pretty much all of it, just lol right at the end where u said like u see the victims as family but it would never happen to ur family coz they white. The numbers of white unarmed males killed is higher. Like it does and can happen to our families no matter what race or colour they appear. Not tht it takes away from the higher amount of black people targeted by police. Its just the deaths of white males are super high like extremely high and i jist assumed cops killed black people more but obviously if therew more white people they gonna they gonna have higher deaths. Bit it is A very good post and it makes me feel happier tht people can see truth of the situation
If the stars fell: the issue here is not a matter of being unwilling to stand up for the downtrodden of course, the part that pains me the most is i have spent the entirety of my life standing up against the unjust, and in favor of the ones that get the short end of the stick... which is why i find it so offensive that i am unfairly painted with labels that i do not deserve.
i actually WANT to help people, i WANT to fix this, not just for me or the poor whites but for everyone. So when i see people come up to me and paint me and those like me as though i am the perpetrator of other peoples disparity while my concerns are completely ignored i get extremely frustrated, because we are being unfairly mischaracterized and i know that many of us suffer the same injustices and i KNOW that the only way to resolve this is collectively with mutual consideration for each others needs.;.. the high tide the raises all ships...
it is not my goal to be your enemy, but when you alienate me you de-facto make me your opposition regardless of the fact that im far more on your side than theres... its hard for me to want to help you when my pleas are ignored and everyone is prioritized over us, despite our suffering.
That being said.... do we want to actually resolve this? can we work together to accomplish our unified goal? the only way this is possible is if we can meet on equal ground and address our issues together, and unfairly setting us apart from you not only harms my cause, and your cause... but it makes it significantly harder to make real progress because we are too busy fighting ourselves...
i am not your enemy, i am not the perpetrator of your misery, i am not complicit in the disparity, and i want to make life better for everyone. I dont care who has suffered more, i just care about solving the problem so that we can all move forward and make the world into the amazing place we all deserve and i know we are capable of...
this starts by embracing each other... not dividing each other.
fustler: I don't disagree with you on this, pal. However, I feel there is another way to view identity politics, and those that use it to shut down objective civil discourse. You see, that's the crux of all this. Identity shaming is a power move. Its not meant to make an informed position. Its how one goes about avoiding a progressive discussion which doesn't hold the guarantee of the heady egoistic pay off of winning victimhood.
If you approach this from an entirely objective perspective, you'll not feel demonized. You will simply see that you've come upon a weak power play. That's really all it is. If some intellectually lazy person can defend a position against ignorance and intolerance from a position of ignorance and intolerance, and have it actually work; why shouldn't they? The media calls these people heroes! Why should they put in the due diligence of empathy and research when they've already won?
I guess my point is... Consider the source. If a hateful person calls you hateful despite your kindness, oh well. If an ignorant person claims that your research is invalid due to the cover of the book that is you; again, oh well. Bless their pea pickin' little hearts, and move forward. The best approach to forgiveness is to forgo any attempt to rationalize the behavior of others, and decide that you'll be best served yourself with a peaceful mind. Among all the socially detrimental rhetoric I hear on the modern and sick concept of social justice in America, rarely can we find anyone fostering the concept of forgiveness. To my mind, that's enough.
The wise learn from everyone, and everything. The average learn from experience. The idiots already have all the answers.
If the stars fell: the unfortunate thing is being literally surrounded by people that eat up the narrative and wildly paint everything they come across with this counter productive brainwashed bias dog shit
Nicotina in reply to If the stars fell: No one is blaming you personally. Understandable that you might feel attacked and blamed for things that have not done. Our society tends to favour white people, especially white men, and that will take time and effort to correct. To give you an example, women were denied basic rights in Canada as recently as 1982. Bill C-127 came into effect on Jan. 4, 1983, making sexual assault against one's wife an offence. I know you do not condone such violence and this is not a representation of your values. This violence was accepted by society prior to Jan 4, 1983 and as such married women were seen as less valuable than men. Perhaps this is why females are more in tune with what it feels like to be dismissed. Just a thought.
Wasted Wizard: Nico we not from the 80s girl lol this shit hasn't happened in our life times. Your a patronising bish. Maybe ur white privilege could have helped u being homeless and a woman đ oppsh it didn't, jist brought u to the gutter with everyone elseđ
Nicotina in reply to If the stars fell: Iâve made an honest attempt to explain how our present system favours white people, especially white males. Not once have I blamed anyone on a personal level for the inherent bias in our political systems. Iâve been attacked, called names, and had attempts to belittle me whilst attempting to explain my perspective. The example I gave was to illustrate that there were recent laws that negated a personâs human rights. Of course I believe that all people are part of the solution. People have been suffering and they are upset, if we just listen and acknowledge their pain rather than focusing on our own egos, then we can remove individual blame and utilize our individual strengths to form a more cohesive society.
Seiren in reply to If the stars fell: I canât seem to figure out whatâs making you uncomfortable about supporting a movement of Black people fighting to *not* be routinely targeted and/or killed by cops, systemic racism etc. Maybe itâs social/emotional insecurity?
Ultimately theyâre screaming to be recognizedâfor the truth of their reality, their experienceâto be recognized by white people (across the board, but particularly elite white people in positions to spur real change).
To be witnessed.
Collectivelyâfor the color of their skin, their raceâthey have been silenced, mischaracterized, dehumanized, and exterminated. I recognize that. I see that. I validate that. I witness that.
And thatâs a start.
So why the discomfort?
I donât feel uncomfortable that thereâs no collective Black rights movement looking in my personal direction and saying: âwow, southern white woman growing up in classic southern rural poverty style, you sure had it rough being bullied and ignored. Why, I guess we all have it rough donât we? Letâs all band together and take on the super rich white folks pitting us against each other while keeping us both oppressed for their personal gain!â
That would be silly.
My life hasnât been a cake walk by any stretch of the imagination, no. But you know what I realize? Had my family and I been black, I know I would have had it a whole hell of a lot worse. I can think of numerous occasions where things would have went differently for me, more doors closing in my face, more hardships on top of being poor, more relational aggressions to field from white people.
And then, one privilege I count as priceless: I grew up on twenty acres of old family landâand I know for damn sure we wouldnât have had that land had my ancestors, as poor as they were, been Black.
I mean this gently when I say it: This movement is not about *you*. This this is not about you being witnessed; this is not about *either of us* being witnessed. This is about Black people being witnessed. Let them have it. And why not see them, stand up for them, and then let that be enough?
You can have a conversation about your struggles with a Black person, but could you ever really expect themâat a multigenerational disadvantageâto sympathize much with you? When you say, âBut what about me?â... youâre talking over them. Youâre interrupting themâyouâre equating their plight with your own.
Itâs true, existentially all humans sufferâitâs why we sometimes see the richest most privileged people extinguish their own lives early.
But we can also clearly see video after video, and read article after article, of Black people being brutalized or killed by LEOâsâand statistically a rate vastly higher rate than that of white people. It must be existentially horrifying to exist in that reality. Iâll never know. Youâll never know.
So I conclude with these thoughts: When Black people have observable social equality, and systemic racism is eradicated, only then can you begin to expect more from them for you; but I warn you, it wonât happen in either of our lifetimes.
It takes compassion, and it takes humility, to witness someoneâs hardship and to not expect a it returned. I practice it with speaking up about racial issues, and I practice it with studying feminism where menâs issues are involved; I witness the suffering of men who feel threatened by that very word âfeministâ. We exist in a world where men commit suicide at a vastly higher rate than women; why is that?
If the stars fell: it goes so far beyond what you are suggesting... as has been explained many times in many ways... gross oversimplifcations and inferences that dont even address the points being made.
Their well being isnt any more important than ours.
It also implies that black people are incompetent children that have no agency or personal accountability for their own success or failures. The perpetual victims that can never be appeased regardless of how much you concede. I personally also find that racist...
how many times does it has to be said that we should treat people as individuals based on their individual merit? it seems like it should be obvious... but people still go out of their to set themselves apart from the masses, self segregating then demanding some perceived "Equality" while thinking they deserve constant preferential treatment.
It's bullshit, and its not the path to equality, and the more we constantly set ourselves apart with stupid labels the harder and longer the road will be.
I've seen how some charters have become the moralistic bigot brigade. How even if someone says anything where the minority is part of the individual and collective responsibility of an outcome; they jump accusing others to be racist, and justify their bigot behavior. Ironically, they've the delusional perception they're the good people by acting vile to those who in their mind they don't have the right to voice their perceptions.
I dare to ask, what does it say about ourselves when we have an issue in creating the space for opposition to have a voice so we can understand?
Understanding DOESN'T mean one is justifying, and one sided perspective is distorted. Truth has at least 3 parts, ours, others, and the merging of both.
Just a thought...
If the point of a debate is who is who. What's the point really? If the sum total legitimacy of (say) a man's opinions on women's rights is nil because he is male, despite his position being favorable to feminism; the thrust of social justice seems to backfire.
i have NEVER in my life treated someone as greater or lesser for the color of their skin, i ask for no special consideration, and i treat everyone as they deserve based on their own actions... it doesnt seem fair that i am not also held to this same standard.
its multi faceted and should be approached more precisely instead of painting entire groups as malicious, guilty, or incompetent... this applies in all directions.
treating people differently based on the color of their skin is wrong, period... reacting to a truth about reality is another matter... just because half of all murders are committed by black people in the usa does NOT mean you should treat ALL black people as murderers. But you would be a fool to completely ignore blatent problems such as this... dismissing any level of criticism or rejecting any notion of mutual empathy does nothing but make this cycle endless.
you let me know when calling white people privileged solves the problem of racism... because its clearly obvious, and im TELLING you right now that its discriminatory and viewed as an insult by most people because of the far reaching implications behind the statement.
but what do i know, im just a privileged white and i have all the power, so why should anyone care about my opinion? lol
the expectation that the outcomes for all groups will be the same regardless of additional information that modifies the variables is just unrealistic and essentially impossible.
we are turning allies into enemies out of spite, revenge, and ignorance... and because of this we will not be strong enough to resist the real enemy.
is a thing not only do u belive it u have fought to say u have white privilege for days lol andd obviously the right wing has done this too u made u think all this ridiculous shit n forget why u actually have privilege. You happy to blame poor white people for this and forget its u who are the privileged elite because of ur family who saved money, so blame ur own first before u declare a whole race of people at fualt
Overall Poverty Rate: 11.8% (38.1 million people)
Percentage of people who fell below the poverty lineâ$25,465 for a family of fourâin 2018
Twice the Poverty Level: 28.9% (93.6 million people)
Percentage of people who fell below twice the poverty lineâ$50,930 for a family of fourâin 2018
Half the Poverty Level: 5.3% (17.3 million people)
Percentage of people who fell below half the poverty lineâ$12,730 for a family of fourâin 2018
Child Poverty Rate: 16.2% (11.9 million people)
Percentage of children under age 18 who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Womenâs Poverty Rate: 12.9% (21.4 million people)
Percentage of females who fell below the poverty line in 2018
African American Poverty Rate: 20.8% (8.9 million people)
Percentage of African Americans who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Hispanic Poverty Rate: 17.6% (10.5 million people)
Percentage of Hispanics who fell below the poverty line in 2018
White Poverty Rate: 8.1% (15.7 million people)
Percentage of non-Hispanic Whites who fell below the poverty line in 2018
Native American Poverty Rate: 23.7% (600,000 people)
Percentage of Native Americans who fell below the poverty line in 2018
People with Disabilities Poverty Rate: 25.7% (3.8 million people)
Percentage of people with disabilities ages 18 to 64 who fell below the poverty line in 2018
I absolutely agree that we should not treat people differently due to their skin colour. We need to recognise where the inequalities lie and work to change them.
I really do understand your frustration with the phrase. I have also been at the bottom with no home, no food to eat, the victim of ongoing abuse. It took a lot of work to recover. The BLM movement is not about me though, it is about creating equality which seems to be what both of us would like to see become a reality.
I'm not sure where you got the notion that miners are well off. During the miners strike many lost their homes, and much more.
It seems that your assumptions about me are often incorrect.
The city I live in 2016 census shows that visible minorities account for over 70% of the population.
Once again you assumed things. I stated that I come from a family of mostly miners. Both my grandfathers worked in the mines. Many in my family were miners or worked in cotton mills. I come from the industrial north east, Lancashire.
I have no idea how my dad being a draughtsman precludes him from being a humble modest person.
A serious discussion based on facts and not your assumptions would be a refreshing change. I am not hopeful of such an event.
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/prof/details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=3521010&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All
Name of Source - Census Profile, 2016 Census, as compiled by https://www12.statcan.gc.ca
NEW YORK â Drugstore chains Walgreens and CVS Health say they will stop locking up beauty and hair care products aimed at black women and other women of color, joining Walmart in ending a practice at some stores that has drawn the ire of customers.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/walmart-cvs-walgreens-to-stop-locking-up-black-beauty-products-2020-06-11
" Pyro might actually owe her wealth to slave trade lol being in the south ..." - wiz
" I think ur hill billy side is showing pyro" - wiz
So, here's a conundrum created by ourselves, due to one's centralized perception of the self, the justification of one's behavior towards those who create frictions or are our opposition.
This shows that seemingly good people are willing to act horrible against others who don't share the same perspective, and consider themselves good. This is truly what's scary of our centralized perception of the self.
I see this was a platform to express openly with maturity and civility what is been polarized socially. But as usual the same chaotic characters have a tendency to surface, it takes one to see one, I'm a chaotic individual that recognizes my kin. May we find peace within ourselves to create the pace in our environment.
I'm at war within...
We must examine the macro- narrative and compare it fairly with our own micro- narrative.
Itâs also important to understand how social class, race, and gender all intersect when examining this issue from the macro perspectives of sociology (human social behavior) and political science (power, who has it, and what are they doing with it?)
Political science: Recognize that on a global, macro-level, wealthy (social class) white (race) men (gender) own the majority of the planetâs resources (physical and financial). Wealthy white men USED TO control the content of the worldâs ONLY communications access, through news broadcasting and newspapers.
That has since changed with the advent of social media. Right now, I see a lot of average (social class) white men feeling something that Black people and white women have felt throughout history; Irrelevance. Uninitiated. Deficient. They think this is oppression, but average to poor (social class) white men have actually been oppressed in other ways for a lot longer.
I also see a lot of average white men seeing the BLM and #MeToo movements, accepting and realizing that the most elite and wealthy white men are ultimately the ones to blame, and then doing their part to support the social movements. Because they *relate enough* on the social class level.
I recognize on a personal, micro-level, that poor (social class) white men with no socioeconomic standing to speak of can feel extremely marginalized lately; and you can feel that hurt. I feel pretty hurt and marginalized at times as a poor southern white person when I see other more socially comfortable white folks making poor southern folks into punchlines. I feel marginalized when I might lose out in job opportunities because I refuse to curb or modify my very mountain accentâwhile still living in the mountains, no less! Because I donât sound trendy enough? Because I patently refuse to code switch?
We can feel that, but we canât let it manifest into a narrative as anything close to the persecution Black people have endured for literal centuries.
Yours, and my, individual experiences donât negate the global macro-level observable pattern of racism that has been documented and corroborated repeatedly right before our very eyes. You *must* realize how race issues actually intersect with lower end social class. You *must* realize that poor black people typically have had it worseâand in particular they face more adversity within socioeconomic mobility.
I was born a poor southern white woman who grew up without much of an education during my formative years. By all accounts I should find myself pitted against any and all telling me I have it easier because Iâm white; and yet Iâm not pitted against anyone who says that. Because I recognize what ultimately divides white folks from anything is class, and that division is between white folks; and though there are intersections, race is just a scapegoat.
I often revisit FDRâs New Deal for historical perspective; why was that package of social programs enacted so expediently? Because it was rich white folks being forced into helping poor white folks. Race was barely a whisper yet. âWelfare Queenâ wasnât yet a political talking point to stymie social benefits.
As we know, government entities and private
enterprises are inseparableâit took FDR a longer while than it should have for him
to create workerâs right standards (no child workers, no 80 hour stretch outs, better safety regulations, etc.) because mill ownerâs were very powerful and very loud, and they wanted to squeeze every dollar they could from their workers. Check out the Honea Path massacreâhow mill owners had local PD out to intimidate workers and disband worker strikes, and (in this case) with lethal force.
At this time, Jim Crow laws made it so poor
whites could feel a prickle of superiorityâof prideâby virtue of being white. Dirt floors, malnutrition, living on a mill hill 10 to a room? Hey, at least you were white.
I recognize that I have far more in common with my southern Black working class/blue collar neighbors than I ever would a white elite New York democrat who has opportunistically tumbled and failed his way into the Oval Office. Or any wealthy white person, northern or southern, for that matter.
And you do, too, Stars.
So when I hear Black Lives Matter, I see a woman murdered in her bed (Breonna Taylor) and a scared man calling for his Mama (George Floyd). I see my own family, but then I know in my heart this would never happen to them because we are white. That alone is privilege. I was taught to stand up for people who donât get a fair shake. I stand up for my
own self, I stand up for them. Hell, stars, I stand up for you.
But average white men standing in opposition to (or denying the need to) the call for equality for Black people only perpetuates the original discord sown by wealthy/elite white men since pre-industrial times.
Ultimately, we are a faceless labor force; a living resource of comprised of many; existing, fighting each other, distracted; we, the many, working hard for our so called comforts while the biggest cuts are funneled into the pockets of the few (wealthy/elite white men).
i actually WANT to help people, i WANT to fix this, not just for me or the poor whites but for everyone. So when i see people come up to me and paint me and those like me as though i am the perpetrator of other peoples disparity while my concerns are completely ignored i get extremely frustrated, because we are being unfairly mischaracterized and i know that many of us suffer the same injustices and i KNOW that the only way to resolve this is collectively with mutual consideration for each others needs.;.. the high tide the raises all ships...
it is not my goal to be your enemy, but when you alienate me you de-facto make me your opposition regardless of the fact that im far more on your side than theres... its hard for me to want to help you when my pleas are ignored and everyone is prioritized over us, despite our suffering.
That being said.... do we want to actually resolve this? can we work together to accomplish our unified goal? the only way this is possible is if we can meet on equal ground and address our issues together, and unfairly setting us apart from you not only harms my cause, and your cause... but it makes it significantly harder to make real progress because we are too busy fighting ourselves...
i am not your enemy, i am not the perpetrator of your misery, i am not complicit in the disparity, and i want to make life better for everyone. I dont care who has suffered more, i just care about solving the problem so that we can all move forward and make the world into the amazing place we all deserve and i know we are capable of...
this starts by embracing each other... not dividing each other.
If you approach this from an entirely objective perspective, you'll not feel demonized. You will simply see that you've come upon a weak power play. That's really all it is. If some intellectually lazy person can defend a position against ignorance and intolerance from a position of ignorance and intolerance, and have it actually work; why shouldn't they? The media calls these people heroes! Why should they put in the due diligence of empathy and research when they've already won?
I guess my point is... Consider the source. If a hateful person calls you hateful despite your kindness, oh well. If an ignorant person claims that your research is invalid due to the cover of the book that is you; again, oh well. Bless their pea pickin' little hearts, and move forward. The best approach to forgiveness is to forgo any attempt to rationalize the behavior of others, and decide that you'll be best served yourself with a peaceful mind. Among all the socially detrimental rhetoric I hear on the modern and sick concept of social justice in America, rarely can we find anyone fostering the concept of forgiveness. To my mind, that's enough.
The wise learn from everyone, and everything.
The average learn from experience.
The idiots already have all the answers.
To give you an example, women were denied basic rights in Canada as recently as 1982.
Bill C-127 came into effect on Jan. 4, 1983, making sexual assault against one's wife an offence.
I know you do not condone such violence and this is not a representation of your values. This violence was accepted by society prior to Jan 4, 1983 and as such married women were seen as less valuable than men. Perhaps this is why females are more in tune with what it feels like to be dismissed.
Just a thought.
Iâve been attacked, called names, and had attempts to belittle me whilst attempting to explain my perspective. The example I gave was to illustrate that there were recent laws that negated a personâs human rights.
Of course I believe that all people are part of the solution. People have been suffering and they are upset, if we just listen and acknowledge their pain rather than focusing on our own egos, then we can remove individual blame and utilize our individual strengths to form a more cohesive society.
Ultimately theyâre screaming to be recognizedâfor the truth of their reality, their experienceâto be recognized by white people (across the board, but particularly elite white people in positions to spur real change).
To be witnessed.
Collectivelyâfor the color of their skin, their raceâthey have been silenced, mischaracterized, dehumanized, and exterminated. I recognize that. I see that. I validate that. I witness that.
And thatâs a start.
So why the discomfort?
I donât feel uncomfortable that thereâs no collective Black rights movement looking in my personal direction and saying: âwow, southern white woman growing up in classic southern rural poverty style, you sure had it rough being bullied and ignored. Why, I guess we all have it rough donât we? Letâs all band together and take on the super rich white folks pitting us against each other while keeping us both
oppressed for their personal gain!â
That would be silly.
My life hasnât been a cake walk by any stretch of the imagination, no. But you know what I realize? Had my family and I been black, I know I would have had it a whole hell of a lot worse. I can think of numerous occasions where things would have went differently for me, more doors closing in my face, more hardships on top of being poor, more relational aggressions to field from white people.
And then, one privilege I count as priceless: I grew up on twenty acres of old family landâand I know for damn sure we wouldnât have had that land had my ancestors, as poor as they were, been Black.
I mean this gently when I say it: This movement is not about *you*. This this is not about you being witnessed; this is not about *either of us* being witnessed. This is about Black people being witnessed. Let them have it. And why not see them, stand up for them, and then let that be enough?
You can have a conversation about your struggles with a Black person, but could you ever really expect themâat a multigenerational disadvantageâto sympathize much with you? When you say, âBut what about me?â... youâre talking over them. Youâre interrupting themâyouâre equating their plight with your own.
Itâs true, existentially all humans sufferâitâs why we sometimes see the richest most privileged people extinguish their own lives early.
But we can also clearly see video after video, and read article after article, of Black people being brutalized or killed by LEOâsâand statistically a rate vastly higher rate than that of white people. It must be existentially horrifying to exist in that reality. Iâll never know. Youâll never know.
So I conclude with these thoughts: When Black people have observable social equality, and systemic racism is eradicated, only then can you begin to expect more from them for you; but I warn you, it wonât happen in either of our lifetimes.
It takes compassion, and it takes humility, to witness someoneâs hardship and to not expect a it returned. I practice it with speaking up about racial issues, and I practice it with studying feminism where menâs issues are involved; I witness the suffering of men who feel threatened by that very word âfeministâ. We exist in a world where men commit suicide at a vastly higher rate than women; why is that?
Compassion and humility take strength.