 |             Coffrey: I don't want to be partisan here but..... this is the reality of it. 11 years ago • Report 0 Coffrey: Yeah, you're telling me. Notice how on women's issues, it's always old men deciding and legislating  OCD_OCD: “The Democratic Platform currently contains language to allow taxpayer funding of abortion,” DFLA writes. “National polls have consistently demonstrated that most Americans do not support the government paying for abortion. In fact, a February 2012 Quinnipiac University poll…found that nearly thirty percent of Americans would not vote for a candidate with whom they disagreed on abortion but agreed on other issues.” Kristen Day, executive director of Democrats for Life or America, also cited political reasons for the petition, telling told The Washington Examiner, “Expanding our big tent policy with more neutral language on abortion will bring estranged Democrats back and allow pro-choice and pro-life Democrats to work together for common-sense policies.” Her words echo those of former president Jimmy Carter, who recently told talk show host Laura Ingraham the party should limit abortion “only to women whose life are in danger or who are pregnant as a result of rape or incest.” “I think if the Democratic Party would adopt that policy that would be acceptable to a lot of people who are now estranged from our party because of the abortion issue,” he said. He made similar statements in 2005, shortly after releasing his book Our Endangered Values. http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-life-democrats-ask-for-the-party-to-change-its-abortion-plank It's not a strict Republican/Democrat issue. Coffrey: "CNN reported on Monday that the draft of the GOP's official 2012 platform calls for a federal ban on abortion with no exception for rape and incest survivors -- the same policy Akin was trying to defend when he asserted that victims of "legitimate rape" have a natural bodily mechanism that prevents them from getting pregnant. " http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/20/first-on-cnn-gop-prepares-tough-anti-abortion-platform/ So you have a few democrats saying that no abortions except in case of rape or incest, vs the Republican party platform making no exceptions for rape or incest. On that women's issue, dems get 1, gop gets 0. OCD_OCD: *sigh* Republicans are pro-life. That's granted. There are also Democrats, feminists and African American ministers who are pro-life. But what is being spun is that while it has been ruled Constitutional to have an abortion, the issue is WHO is going to PAY for the abortions. No one can, or is going to take away the rights of any woman to get an abortion. I'm a woman. I'm pro-choice. But I don't believe that I (as a woman) should not have to pay taxes that go to paying for someone else's abortion. We already pay taxes so that birth control is free. Come and get it and get all you want. In the case of rape, ineffective birth control or stupidity for not using any birth control, there are morning after pills, no questions asked. I believe in the case of incest that there should be allowances made for those victims because incest is kept hidden and the chances of any child being able to gain access to birth control or a morning after pill are slim to none. I still don't see why it is being made a Republican/Democrat thing. Democrats seem to want to make it an "us or them" thing. There are plenty of pro-life liberals out there and there are lots of pro-choice conservatives. OCD_OCD: “For the good of the Democratic Party, we will continue to advocate that the platform language should reflect the true diversity of views within the Democratic Party,” said Kristen Day (pictured, above right), executive director of the DFLA. “Our message is simple: If you are pro-life and a Democrat, you can make a difference, thus the case for recognition. Inclusion can make a critical difference in this fall’s election.” Day said that if the Democratic Party hopes to broaden its appeal to a majority of Americans “we must recognize the contributions of pro-life Democrats within our party and the diverse position of Democrats on the issue of abortion.” She claimed that nearly a third of Democrats identify themselves as pro-life, and in the 2008 election some 25 percent of Obama supporters said they were pro-life. “These numbers are not trivial,” the DFLA said in a press release. “They exceed many prominent and well-represented constituencies in the party. Electoral success for the party nationwide will depend on the enthusiasm of all Democrats, including pro-life Democrats.” The DFLA cited abundant statistics from a 2011 Gallup poll demonstrating the need for the Democratic Party to acknowledge that many of its members hold pro-life views. The survey confirmed, for example, that: • 84 percent of Democrats support informed consent for a woman seeking an abortion. • 61 percent support parental consent before a minor can get an abortion. • 60 percent back a 24-hour waiting period prior to an abortion procedure. • 59 percent support banning partial-birth abortion. • 49 percent support the requirement that a woman get an ultrasound before an abortion. http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/family/item/12621-pro-life-democrats-set-to-challenge-abortion-plank-at-dem-convention Coffrey: I've said it before, discussing who pays for an abortion is a legitimate issue. But like I also said before, it's very clear. Because democrats are inclusive, of course there will be pro-lifers. But nearly all Republicans are pro-lifers and more than the number of moderate prop-lifers in the democratic party (exclusions for rape, incest, life of mother) are Republican radical pro-lifers who say no abortions in any case, rape or otherwise. I think the whole issue is primarily taking away the right of the mother to choose whether or not she wants to birth a baby, but once you take away those cases, it's obviously the most anti-woman thing in the world, it's even in their national party platform! To argue that democrats are just as guilty as republicans on this issue is absurd, I'll even grant a small number of democrats, but that's nothing compared to the majority of republicans. OCD_OCD: No, not "all Republicans are pro-lifers". That's silly. Are all Democrats athiests? Are all Indians alcoholics? That's part of what is tearing this country apart. Everything doesn't have to be class warfare. The "rich" vs. the "poor", the liberals vs the conservatives, the Democrats vs. Republicans, the white people vs. brown people, Christians against Muslims, short people vs. tall people. Why does it have to be about hating on someone else? Why can't it just be because I don't want to have to pay for someone else's abortion? Why can't it just be that? Why am I declared to be a Republican, or a feminist or a rich bible thumper? Why can't I just be me? I'm me and I work hard. I don't want to pay for stupid people because they make bad decisions? I'm not going to go out and shoot anyone for stupidity, but don't make me pay for it. Coffrey: I said almost. The only national republican that I've seen admit he's pro-choice is Scott Brown and I that's only a political calculation because he's in a liberal state. Again, ocd, I said that the debate of who pays for it is legitimate. But the other parts, completely taking abortion away, attempting to defund Planned Parenthood, and with local Republicans, putting in extreme regulations on abortion clinics (such as the ceiling as to be so many feet high, none of it pertaining to actual abortions) shows that Republicans are surely against women on this issue. I agree with you, most of the time, it's not about democrat vs .republican, it's about the rich and poor, congress against the people. But in these cases, it's pretty clearcut and I totally fine saying Republicans, who represent conservatives, pretty much want to strip rights away from women.  violeta23: "Why does it have to be about hating on someone else? Why can't it just be because I don't want to have to pay for someone else's abortion? Why can't it just be that? Why am I declared to be a Republican, or a feminist or a rich bible thumper? Why can't I just be me? I'm me and I work hard. I don't want to pay for stupid people because they make bad decisions? I'm not going to go out and shoot anyone for stupidity, but don't make me pay for it." I've never seen so much bullshit in one paragraph. Abortions aren't necessarily born out of stupidity. Shit happens, condoms break. So what? You're going to punish someone for getting pregnant? And if it is an ignorance about contraception, it comes from the American culture of sex-shame. That somehow something as natural as sex and human pleasure is wrong and sinful. That leads to denying horny teens a broad sexual education. OF COURSE teens are going to be having sex, so why are you simply telling them to wait until marriage if it's a sex ed course? Makes no sense. It comes from that typical Christian Conservative mentality that sex is only for pro-creation. Pfft, bollocks. And your refusal to pay for someone else to receive healthcare is so flawed, it's riddled with your selfish privilege. EVERYONE deserves healthcare. Everyone. I think you're lacking a little empathy, not everyone has had the same opportunities as you have, there's always going to be class division in society as long as it is a capitalist one. There's always going to be a working class, where there are rich people there will be poor because every rich person is affluent at the expense of someone else. It's the uneven and unequal distribution of wealth. Have a little bit of empathy, please. What if you were one of the majority with no access to anything? Would you It's views like yours that continue to screw over the working class and prolong the dysfunctional aspects of life. When you adopt that mentality, 'As long as I'm okay, fuck the rest,' it's actually regressive. We're going backwards, like basically back to when we weren't as evolved as we are now. It's the mentality of apes. We have a duty to protect everyone in society, not just a rich minority at the expense of a poor and deprived majority. That's why I'm socialist and oppose any conservative policy or view: it's often regressive and far removed from any kind of empathetic thought. For example, a bunch of old crusty conservative men deciding on women's issues. They don't NEED to empathise on this because they will never experience having to push a parasite our your vagina and being force to support it for the first 18 years of its little leechy life. OCD_OCD: There are no plans to defund Planned Parenthood, Coffrey, only the abortions would not be paid for by the taxpayers. They will still do women's health, free exams, free birth control and free morning after pills. What rights have been stripped? None? No woman has the "right" to a free abortion You're mixing up "rights" with political ideologies. They ain't the same, bro. OCD_OCD: Slow your roll, Violeta. You don't even live in the U.S. and have no idea what is free here and what is not. Free morning after pills in the US are FREE because "shit happens, condoms break". Sex shame? Who said anyone is afraid of sex? Screw like a mink if you want, but when you start puffing up with little minks, don't make me pay for your fix because prevention is available for free and so is the morning after "uh-oh, the condom broke". Who in the hell said people have to wait until they are married? You are all over the board and blowing up over something that I didn't say. "push a parasite out of your vagina and being force to support it for the first 18 years of its little leech life" pretty much says it all, Violeta. Damn, girl. Who is hating on women and children? violeta23: You don't cut down an apple tree because there are a few rotten apples. For every one poor woman who can't afford an abortion that got herself into the mess that is pregnancy willingly, there will be more who were safe or careful that still got pregnant and cannot afford it. You don't deny all the right to free abortion just because a minority abuse the system. Thank God we don't have that system in the NHS. I'd have killed myself by now if I lived in such a fucked society where people hold such a selfish, self-enriching view. Coffrey: "The House just approved Rep. Mike Pence’s amendment to cut off funding to Planned Parenthood, checking off a hot-button social issue even as it set up a bigger showdown over defunding the health care law. The vote was 240-185 with 11 Democrats voting for the amendment, and seven Republicans voting against. One member voted present. A group of Republicans on the floor applauded when the vote hit 218." http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49830.html#ixzz24yCkCJZc Not one mention of abortions. I get it, ocd, we're on the same side on abortions, I think it should be fully legal, I assume you do too, and our only contention is the method of paying for it. I'm not completely on the side of letting women have as many abortions as they want on the government's dime, nor am I on the side of they should have to pay for it every time, I believe there is some sort of middle ground that can be reached. The Republican party, on the other hand, has a clear position: NO abortions for anyone under any circumstances, legal or illegal and Roe v. Wade be damned. Again, it's not about free abortions, it's simply about allowing abortions, paid by the woman getting the abortion. The GOP is fully against that, that is inarguable. OCD_OCD: And I too, believe there should be some sort of middle ground. Roe v Wade covered the RIGHT of a woman to have a legal abortion, not the RIGHT of a woman to have a FREE legal abortion. Roe v. Wade has nothing to do with who has to fund abortions, Coffrey. I think the Republicans are saying no FREE abortions, Coffrey. Not, no abortions. It doesn't matter whether Republicans or Democrats believe that abortions should happen because based on the Supreme Court ruling in Roe v. Wade, abortions are GOING to happen and they are going to happen legally. Nothing is going to change. No one is going to stop abortions. Whether the GOP as a group decide that they are pro-life doesn't make a damned bit of difference because, again, what they think has nothing to do with whether it's constitutional or not. I might think that all pink people are perverts, but that doesn't mean that I can enact a law denying rights to pink people. Not all Democrats or liberals are atheist, nor are they all pro-choice. The whole thing about people having "rights" for others to clean up after them is wrong. Now if I want to donate my money and time and energy to a women's shelter, I will and I have. No one has the "right" to make me fix their problems. I have the "right" to donate what I want to, where I want to in order to alleviate suffering. We are getting to the point where there are more people who feel like they have the "right" to the lifestyle they want and rather than work for it, they demand that it be given to them. When the takers overtake the makers, the shit is going to hit the fan and we are right at the cusp of it socially and economically. violeta23: Slow your roll, Violeta. You don't even live in the U.S. and have no idea what is free here and what is not. Free morning after pills in the US are FREE because "shit happens, condoms break". It doesn't matter. The principle is still the same so I'm not going to make up hypothetical reasons as to why a woman cannot get access to the morning after pill. I don't advocate people taking advantage of a free abortion system, but I cannot condone outlawing abortion on the grounds of simply not wanting it. It violates someone's right to choice over their own body and who knows, you'll have a situation on your hands where there's a load of backstreet abortions that threaten the lives of American women. FORCING someone to keep a fetus/parasite is a direct breach of their human right to make choices in life over their own body, it has a direct effect on the rest of their life. The idea that if I make a mistake (that can be easily corrected and put right with an abortion) is going to ruin the rest of my life, and that I'm going to have to live with that decision forever is....extremely frightening, unfair, and absolutely 100% avoidable either by the use of free contraception or (oops, MY MISTAKE, BECAUSE I'M A FALLIBLE HUMAN BEING, NOT PERFECT) an abortion. When did I say afraid? There's no fear of sex, there's an intolerance for sex and sexual pleasure. Shaming people for enjoying sex and being knowledgeable about sex, especially women. It creates a culture of ignorance about sex. If I'm going to shamed or punished for knowing about sex or wanting to learn about it, or for even liking and enjoying the pleasure that sex brings, then why do I want to know? I'm going to remain ignorant at all costs and probably....do it on the quiet. Like so many do. Fuck with no contraception because they don't know about it, because it feels good and it's a natural instinct. Once you encourage a culture of education surrounding sex, I reckon the numbers of accidental pregnancies will drop. My impression of American culture is that abstinence until marriage (especially in very religious parts) is encouraged rather than safe sex. Telling a teen to wait until they're in their 20s or 30s for sex is absolutely ridiculous. "push a parasite out of your vagina and being force to support it for the first 18 years of its little leech life" pretty much says it all, Violeta. Damn, girl. Who is hating on women and children? Hating on women? Absolutely not. I'm a feminist. I don't 'hate' on children. I just acknowledge that they're leeches. It's not necessarily a loaded word unless you want it to be. Coffrey: Whoa, ocd, you think the GOP is just against free abortions? Either you are ignorant or lying or I'll even grant you being naive. "THE SANCTITY AND DIGNITY OF HUMAN LIFE. Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed." That last part, does it sound like "Well you can have an abortion, I'm just not going to pay for it"? If that's what you think...... I know you aren't stupid, you're demonstrated a high degree of intelligence and comprehension, so I can only conclude that there has to be some cognitive dissonance. And I'll say another thing, are you a Republican? I remember you implying that you are not, but I'm not for sure. If you aren't a Republican, then why you defending them so much on this clearly indefensible issue? OCD_OCD: Uhm....yes it does matter, Violeta. You are obviously too angry and biased to even have a conversation with, so I think I won't bother. You "impression of American culture is that abstinence until marriage is encouraged rather than safe sex" is completely out of whack with reality. That would be like me saying that all Brits are toffee nosed, cole-hearted imperialists. Just because I say it and just because some people think it doesn't make it true, Violeta. LOL Coffrey: Actually, ocd, abstinence was a federal policy set for public schools, I was taught mostly abstinence, but because I actually had a good teacher, she taught about condoms and stuff and told us not to tell anybody, presumably because she would get in trouble for teaching off-curriculum stuff. As far as morning after pills, the only problem is, again, education. The people who are the responsible about sex and who knows what happens when a penis and vagina collide also know about it, like you and I. But the poor sumabitches who have 8 kids and weren't properly educated have no idea about some pill that can stop fertilization. They know about abortions, but not that. And again, Bush's policy was abstinence, when I was in school. Obama took out abstinence for safer sex ed instead. Clear example of a republican being dumb and ideological. OCD_OCD: No, I am not a Republican. I am a conservative. I'm not anything other than conservative. Here in Texas we have Blue Dog Democrats and they are conservative also. Conservative doesn't mean we hate people, only that we believe that everyone has the same rights and that no group of people should have precedence over any other persons or class of persons. We believe there is a difference between assisting someone and enslaving them by giving them just enough to keep them from being in poverty. When you can make more money on welfare than you can after going to college and getting your first job so that you have the ability to work your way up and earn more, then what's the point? It's easier to be given something than to earn it. Of course it is. But here's where I have a problem with it. Let's say I have several abortions. Free abortions. Is the fact that I'm getting it free going to make me pay more attention to taking my BC pill in the morning or making sure that the guy wears a condom? Not really. It's not big deal because it's free. Now here's where it gets sticky. Red, blue, black or white, if you can make more money from the government by having a baby, then do you care who has to pay for it? The more you have, the more money you make. If you really cared about your child, you'd make sure that you had the ability to properly care for that child and consider them as a person and not a potential paycheck. This is what is enslaving people in the US. It takes away their dignity because you've already branded them as a loser who is incapable of making any proper decisions, so you'll just pat them on the head and leave them in high-end poverty and ignorance. People from all ethnic backgrounds have the ability to use the education system or ignore getting an education altogether. There are very successful people who come from impoverished backgrounds, but the difference between the ones who are successful and the ones who aren't is pride, ambition and will. That's something that you can't buy or give to a person. You can take it away in a heartbeat, but it is something hard-won and it's not going to crawl out from under your bed and suddenly appear. It takes work. It takes self-respect and it takes personal responsibility. Responsibility for yourself and responsibility for your children. Just as there are some rich trust fund kids who are lazy and worthless because they've been given everything and feel like they don't have to prove anything to anyone, there is the other end of the spectrum and that is the people who have given up on themselves and have no hope and that hopeless is ingrained in them because no one expects them to be anything better. It happens with rich kids just like it happens with poor kids. Unless they take responsibility for SOMETHING, they aren't going to amount to anything. Not ever. violeta23: Angry and biased? More like passionate, reasonable, rational and fair. Your 'I won't bother talking to you' is really just a cop out because you're shit scared to argue properly with me, and that's simply because...you can't. Your views don't stand up because what you're arguing for is a restriction on someone exercising their right to choice and autonomy over their own body. What you're essentially arguing for, when you get to the nitty gritty of it, is a totalitarian state. You know, like the undemocratic, unfair and unjust form of Communism in Russia and China. What will you advocate for next, a restriction on free speech? Where the state imposes my right to rid myself of the parasite growing inside me because they have ultimate power, thus influencing the outcome of my life. My opportunities. The course my life takes. I miss out on education or a promotion at work or even work altogether because I'm stuck at home supporting a child I can barely afford. And I truly deserve all this? That one night, that one mistake, and I deserve to have my life ruined because of it? We all make mistakes, we're human. Women don't deserve to be punished for the rest of their for this. And all because you're too mean or tight or stingy with your money, desperately clutching at your money and financial privilege, to have the government prise a little more money for tax from you, all so that my life regains the potential to be just as good as yours, so that I have potential and access to opportunities that enrich my life too, just like it so well enriches yours. I said that's the impression I get. That's the Republican, Christian view, is it not? Unless I've completely misunderstood, I've never heard a white, male, privileged, crusty old Conservative advocating for 'SEX FOR ALL, YEAAH, IT'S GOOD FOR YA! Here, take a condom, son! Bang away!' Now I'm not saying it's like that all over America, of course not. But in some parts. Did I not make that clear? Unless you're unable to read, which clearly you're not, how could you miss it....? Coffrey: That's the whole thing, although Republicans can't be anything other than conservative (while democrats, being inclusive, have both conservative and liberal, though most of them are just political animals with no real values), I don't think that everything Republicans do is the same what conservatives do. I only know what Republican positions clearly are, and like I just said, they are all conservatives. That said, I'm not going to argue with you on free abortions vs. healthcare covered abortions, because I haven't come unto enough facts to make a determination, it's a complicated issue. But the debate among the republicans is abortions vs no abortions at all, zilch, nada, no way, no how, no abortions for any reason and that is what I'm pointing out to you. I don't know if you ever had an abortion, obviously I have never haha, but it's not a matter of going in there like you're buying ice cream. It's an operation that includes a lot of.... well let's just say if there was that much activity going on down there for an operation for a guy, I wouldn't think it's no big deal. No one wants to have abortions, it's usually a last resort kind of thing. Okay, so due to whatever circumstances of just living your normal human life, you become pregnant. So now are you resigned to giving up your career, maybe even your partner, to take care of a kid just because some politicians think unborn fetuses have the right to life, the woman's right to live her life as she chooses be damned? Also, just to be devil's advocate and bring the opposite argument to your conservative (I'm not totally sold on what way is right here, either), you will agree that people are generally motivated by greed? I mean, the acquisition of material goods, comfortable lifestyle of having whatever you please and some amount of power, I think we can all agree on that. So you think someone getting $200 a month is going to make people think "I got it made, don't have to do nothing"? Or is it more likely that, due to again circumstances in every day life, that some people just hit a rut in their life, and things fall apart and to keep them from being on the street and having a slim chance at the normal life, we shouldn't give them $200 a week? I think cutting that off for the slim number of people who actually do nothing, versus the thousands or millions other who lose their jobs due to the recession or getting their jobs sent overseas or just having a population labor force surplus in their area is the right thing to do? But alas, something we can completely agree on. Getting extra money from the government just because you shot out another kid is possibly the most backward medieval fucking worst thing I've ever seen in America. I would rather give all the tax breaks to millionaires than allowing people to get paid essentially for having another dumbass kid. Was I strong enough on this? Coffrey: Oh, I'll just clarify the beginning paragraph. I don't know what conservative means anymore. If you think it means equality and fairness, the conservative party has been running and voting against that for the better part of 30 years. No idea what liberal means either, if people claim Obama has done all of these liberal things when, in my book, he hasn't, only gone with the, I'll just say republican position most of the time. OCD_OCD: ROFL Coffrey. Yes, we do completely agree on payment for having babies and making it a way of life. I think it is enslavement that is harmful for generations of people and it just keeps multiplying. Mama did it and got by, so I can too. *shudder* It's a trap. Violeta? I'm going to say it again. I don't know what bug crawled up your nose and made you angry, but you can take it down the road because I neither fear your anger, nor am I going to discuss anything with anyone who considers a baby to be a "parasite". When you say, "Your views don't stand up because what you're arguing for is a restriction on someone exercising their right to choice and autonomy over their own body." You have clearly shown that you haven't read a damned thing that I said because I've always said I'm pro-choice. Now I'm done with you and your pissiness, OK? violeta23: When will you understand the difference between anger and passion? I'm a woman, do you think I want people like you imposing your views in society and fucking up my life? This is MY life, stay away from my body, stay away from my womb and what happens to grow or not grow in it, and leave the decisions to empathetic liberal people that aren't constantly keeping one eye on their bank account. You're also a very emotional person. A child is a parasite. It leeches off its host, the parent, for 18 years. If you look at it factually, just as it is, it's true. There's no shame in it, it's just how life is. I was once dependent on my mother for nutrition, I sucked her of it for 9 months. I then depended on my parents to feed me, clothe me, wash me and wipe my ass for the next year or whatever. Now I'm dependent on them to support me financially, primarily. I'm a leech. I can't help it, I just am because I need support. You are restricting someone's right to exercise choice by denying free abortions for women who need them and cannot afford to pay for one. I don't get to exercise my right because you restrict when you force me to basically pay or fuck off and deal with my pregnancy myself. Could also potentially endanger my life if I chuck myself down the stairs to get rid of it. You also appeared to advocate a restriction on my right when you were getting all butthurt that a woman could make a mistake and get pregnant, for whatever reason. You seemed pretty angry that a woman, a human being, could be subject to making...a mistake. You don't or won't make any allowances, will you? Your refusal to make any allowances indicates that you're not really pro-choice at all, you're really pro-restricting rights and choice. I also think it's really cruel to punish someone for an accidental pregnancy too. Cruel and...pretty selfish if the reason is for not wanting anyone to pry an extra percentage of your income for taxes because it might mean a loss of financial privilege and comfort. violeta23: By implication you are restricting my right to an abortion by making me pay. If I can't pay, I'm fucked. Privilege for a minority, not for a majority. Only the rich get abortions. I think it's you that's really not understanding or paying attention. For me to exercise my right to choice I have to pay. So it comes at a cost. If I can't afford that cost, I don't get a choice. Do you understand now? OCD_OCD: Unless my penis accidentally falls into your vagina, I'm not responsible for your biological reproduction. You are talking about choice, not rights. It's your choice, do whatever you want, but your choices aren't my responsibility. If I drive my car and wear it out, it would be stupid of me to think that a group of people owe me a new one. You are in charge of your vagina. Use it or don't. Run it up a flagpole or encase it in silver. If you want that right, then take that responsibility that goes along with it. There's a difference with pregnancies resulting from incest, however. Those children and/or women need protection and assistance. violeta23: But you see the way you're explaining it, life shouldn't work like that. We're not animals, we're not savages. Your analogy doesn't apply because you're arguing over something that's a luxury, like a car. Healthcare is a necessity. And since healthcare is a necessity for all, we need to make sure ALL get access to it. Unless you're not a decent human being but a....selfish animal that cares only for themselves and enriching themselves/ making sure that you're just fine, how could you not advocate for healthcare for all? That's why go back to my point earlier. It's regressive. It's a regressive model of thinking, it's selfish and savage-like, and it lacks human decency and empathy. And no, I'm talking about choice. Choice and rights aren't mutually exclusive. Having choice IS my right. It is my right to be able to do what I want with my body because....well, because it's fucking mine. I have a right to that abortion if I need it because I have a fundamental right to have control over my body and that extends being able to access things that allow me to exercise that right. And what about an abortion in the case of rape? OCD_OCD: You get to make your choice. You are simply whining because you think someone else should take care of your screw-ups or your accidents. "Life shouldn't work like that?". There is no Utopia where lollipops and gumdrops grow freely on trees. You can either make it yourself, make it in cooperation with others, or take it. If you didnt bust your butt in school and work to pay for your degree, do without either heat or air-conditioning because it was either comfort or the rent, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't whine in my direction and tell me that I have to pay for your screwup because it is to inconvenient for you to pay for it yourself. As I have said ad nauseum, there is a free morning after abortion pill to take care of that. You can take it at the time that you report the rape or if you choose not to report it, all you have to do is go to a pharmacy and ask. Doesn't get much easier than that. violeta23: It's not a case of whining because I want to be able to have an abortion for free if I happen to get pregnant. Your views are laced with greed like I keep saying. Over and over and over because you cannot look past your own self-prospering and self-enriching Capitalist-esque values. By the way, it's not an argument to simply assert for the last three posts that you're not paying for someone else's mistakes because "NOBODY'S GETTING THEIR HANDS ON MY PRECIOUS MONEY!". Voicing this view you hold is not even making me question my own views or cause me to pause for a moment and reflect on whether you're perhaps right, it's just illustrating to me that you're too mean and tight with money, like the typical American Conservative probably is (or not even Conservative as I think you hastened to point our earlier, so just greedy bastards that care only for themselves) to contribute to one big pot as it were and make sure others in society also received the same healthcare treatment that you do (includes free abortion) because it is a fundamental right that everyone has access to it to care for their bodies and in some cases exercise their right to choice in life and over their body/thoughts etc. Our healthcare over here, the NHS, works. It works better than your system does if the objective is to provide a decent standard of healthcare for all and therefore bring about social justice and fairness in at least some form. While America continues to adopt Capitalist, greedy attitudes, it remains socially stunted because it's not striving for equality when it continues to distribute wealth the way it does, i.e. giving the majority of wealth to a minority and basically fucking over the poor. People like you continue to perpetuate this because you condone what's happening, you agree with it, you encourage it, you're satisfied by it, as long as your wealth and privilege remains as it does, at the expense of someone else. OCD_OCD: Now you have made it perfectly clear. You feel like you are more special than other people, and you deserve it free. People who take responsibilities for their own actions and problems are suckers, like me. I apparently "screw over the poor" because I worked hard and lived without luxuries in order to get an education so that I could succeed. Nobody gave me anything and it is obnoxious as shit of you to assume it and say it. In other words, you are talking out of your nose. How did I do that at the expense of someone else? You seem to be angry about the direction your life has taken. You blame everyone and everything except yourself.  Barbara the Jew: People deserve to keep what they earn. Its not greedy but just! I am all for helping the needy but I am against funding the lazy. Abortions should by no means be covered by tax payers money. OCD_OCD: Oh and this part of your statement: "While America continues to adopt Capitalist, greedy attitudes, it remains socially stunted because it's not striving for equality when it continues to distribute wealth the way it does, i.e. giving the majority of wealth to a minority and basically fucking over the poor." Giving the majority of the wealth to a monority? Are you serious? It is people like me who woek and EARN money that have the ability to pay taxes so the government can GIVE free shit to people like you. Barbara the Jew: Violeta said, "While America continues to adopt Capitalist, greedy attitudes, it remains socially stunted because it's not striving for equality when it continues to distribute wealth the way it does, i.e. giving the majority of wealth to a minority and basically fucking over poor." Violeta, Capitalism does not equal injustice. Is a system that promotes education and skills for personal advancement. Socialism equals lazynes and the attitude of "why should I work when others can provide for me" Education is lacking in this country and we are paying and investing our money in some lazy fucks that screw all day and don't want to take care of their responsibilities (abortion) or have 10 kids and have no means to provide for them. The biggest injustice this country has is having the people that work for a living to provide for this people. Is a type of modern slavery. violeta23: Christ, you guys went off on your own little agreeable circle jerk conversation. I don't feel like I'm 'more special' than anyone else. If you can read, you'd see I'm for social justice which opposes special treatment for a minority (the rich.) I'm not angry about my life at all. I'm lower middle class, I acknowledge my partial privilege and want to try and change it with a socialist government, preferably world wide socialism. Obama isn't cutting it, he's a weak leader, he's not really a liberal at all since he seems to be very sensitive to inane Republicans. I want access to necessities like healthcare and abortion for free because I might need them in future. Note the word NEED, not want. Don't get me wrong, I don't take this stance for luxuries because that's just unrealistic. But basic human needs, food, water, shelter, healthcare. Everybody should have access to it. This fundamental principle overrules all complaints or stipulations with a system that is fair and just for all. People do not deserve what they earn if the income is not in accordance with what they need, not what they want. There should be no consideration for your natural human greed and the need to accumulate more and more wealth. Just because a minority abuse a system that benefits many or all is no reason to abolish the system altogether. You're just butthurt because you're a stringy person that's grumbling about having to fork out a little extra money for tax so that all get the same opportunities and access to basic necessities in life. You think of yourself not society as a whole. Your greed prevents you seeing society as an entire. Not ALL people on benefits are lazy. Not ALL people are sponging off you and the system for their benefit. Some are. Not all. Please get that right, too. Barbara the Jew: Violeta, First of all I never called you a name nor claim that you were angry this types of insults are beneath intellectuals who wish to have a civilized conversations. Free healthcare is not free someone has to pay for it and if you as a healthy adult cant work for it know and secure your future why should I secure it for you. Free abortions is not a need is a want. I am all for helping the needy. They are the elderly, and children. Violeta you said, "People do not deserve what they earn if the income is not in accordance with what they need, not what they want. There should be no consideration for your natural human greed and the need to accumulate more and more wealth." This breeds more greed and lazynes for those who think they are in titled to sit on their ass all day and eat ding dongs as we Americans get fatter and fatter. It is unjust to confiscate or rob other peoples earnings just because of someone envies attitudes. I don't care if someone elses lives better then I do I work for what I have and i don't take handouts and Violetta 60 % of the people in social welfare have abused or are abusing the system. That is not a minority. i know many people in the system to include my sister and my brother in law two healthy adults that can work but refuse to. They get food stamps, a place to live and utilities paid off. I also volunteered in a pregnancy resource program. I know how it works Socialism and liberalism is an abuse system that breeds iresponsability and slavery for does tax papers that work. Barbara the Jew: For the record I think is  that the government tax me "a little extra" because they don't see the need of I taking my children to the movies, or traveling so they can experience the world, or their own country for that matter , because its greed for me to keep the money i have earned. Where is the justice in that! OCD_OCD: Violeta, what work are you willing to do to repay taxpayers for your "gifts"? For your monthly stipend are you willing to babysit for people who have jobs and work all day? Mow their yard, clean their house, take care of the elderly? Would you do shopping for the elderly, take care of the children of abused women so they can go out and learn a skill and get a job to take care of themselves and their children? What are you willing to give back in return for everything that you feel should be "given" to you? violeta23: Free healthcare is not free. It is paid for by taxes. Abortion is a need. Just like healthcare, food, shoes. All of it. If I cannot support a child, or I choose not to, then abortion is a necessity. It's not casual or trivial, like deciding whether you want icecream, it's not an optional luxury. People NEED these operations. Disengage the emotional part of your brain that fixates on the perceived vulnerability of the aged and children. Adults need support too. Be it emotional/financial etc. They still need it. Not all adults are fit to work. There will always be people who abuse free systems. But not ALL do. Stop making generalisations about whole groups of people, for god's sake. We're not robbing your earnings. We're just taxing you more. We're taking SOME of your income, a small percentage. So calm down. You'll still have money to live on for necessities and some luxuries because this is what we strive for. When I say we I'm speaking on behalf of all Socialists and Marx himself. Hahaha. Prove to me that 60% of the people on welfare are leeches. Prove it to me. And explain where your arbitrary standard of 'leech' begins and ends. Ah, OCD, this is where it gets interesting. I believe people on benefits SHOULD give something back and do voluntary work or work for the councils in libraries, council gyms etc. It'll give them structure to their day, work experience, something to put on their CV for future employees so it's not completely bare, and it'd be helping the community. OCD_OCD: I wasn't making a generalization, Violetta. I asked you direct questions. People in the US who are on welfare do not work, Violetta. If they do work, they work for cash so they don't have to pay taxes on it. Welfare in the US was meant to be a hand up, not a lifetime subsistence. It is meant to help people get into a position so that they can help themselves. The US is not a socialist country. You may believe in socialism; however, the majority of the people in the US do not. The reason the US was formed was so that people were free to succeed, free to make their own choices, to create their own destiny. We all know that there are people who will always be in need, but that need has to do with illness, age, infirmity, tragic accidents, etc. It does not have to do with people who are simply unwilling to work and feel that the federal government (taxpayers) owe them something for nothing. Even in a socialist economy, someone is going to have to do the work in order to society to continue to run. Not everyone can sit on their ass and expect someone to build them a house, bake their bread, pay for their children (or pay for them to abort their children), clothe them, provide them with an education and healthcare. This stuff doesn't fall from the sky. Someone has to create it and work for it and those who create it and work for it deserve to be paid for their efforts. Barbara the Jew: If you can not support a child get a job if you can afford to be irresponsible and and sleep around be responsible for the concupiscence that come with it. Please Violeta I am not taking all your money just some. With what they take already I have to gather my change to get some milk for my kids and sometimes they don't get milk till pay day. This is unacceptable I worked for the money to provide for my family and I am being taxed for some lazy fuck to sit in his ass. How Just is that. Not to mention that i don't see the fairness in I having to cancel my children's music lessons because my taxes have gone up and I cant no longer afford to pay their instructors. where is the justice in that. Lech are all does healthy people that don't work and expect others to pay for their lack of work. violeta23: I know what welfare is. Socialism doesn't stifle freedom. It encourages success, but unlike Capitalism, wealth isn't the main incentive. Doing things for the greater good is the incentive, not greed and self-interested enrichment. Socialism is just. Capitalism is not. I've explained all this before and none of you are taking any notice, so now I'm just going to assert like you've done. Socialism is When did I ever agree that people shouldn't be paid for their efforts? Of course they should be paid, just not extortionate amounts at the expense of someone else. People on benefits should be made to give something back to the community. So they're not doing nothing for something. violeta23: It cut off some of it *Socialism is the sole system that strives to benefit all, there are no 'losers' in a socialist system except for the sore loser bankers and entrepreneurs that recklessly fritter away OUR money - not for your good, or for the good of the people, but simply for themselves. To keep them on top.* Barbara the Jew: There is no justice in socialism just you have yet to show me that. i only see it as breading parasites. Look at Europe people working their ass offs while immigrants "needy" have 12 kids and getting welfare. Where is the justice in that? Our systems needs to equipping firefighters, and teachers not lazy people that want a free abortion. If you dont want a child use birth control. if you still get pregnant know that its always a consecuence to your action. if you cant handle it don't have sex. OCD_OCD: Socialism does not encourage success. LOL. It limits success in favor of "equality". "fritter away OUR money"? How is it your money if you did not earn it? violeta23: Breading parasites? Like in a batter? If anything my idea to introduce voluntary work to those on benefits would probably encourage them to get jobs. Lots of people don't want to 'work for nothing.' And if they don't get jobs, they're still giving something back anyway. I hate to have to say it, but in regards to parasites, 'that's life.' They always exist, they're always going to exist. While you have people who work hard, you'll also have slackers. I suggest you stop complaining. You have enough to live on probably, if you want to complain about the real parasites that are talking most of the money, look to the head of the Capitalist system you so idolise. Bankers. They're the ones taking the most important chunk of the money. What people get on the dole totals so much less than the real parasites. My brother is on benefits and trust me, the amount of money he gets is not enough. It's very shitty money and he frequently complains so he's making an extra effort to get a job - except there are very few. If you want a free abortion, you get one, because it's your right to receive one to exercise control over your body and not have a Conservative state decide for you. Once we take excess wealth away from those who don't need it we'll be able to fund free healthcare and free abortions. Socialism primarily encourages justice. I'd rather live in a society that values justice over self-prosperity, greed and self-gain. It does encourage success but with honest and honourable intentions. Not 'I'll become a doctor because it pays well,' but instead 'I'll become a doctor because I want to save lives.' Barbara the Jew: If you want a free abortion, you get one, because it's your right to receive one to exercise control over your body and not have a Conservative state decide for you. Its not your right to fuck around and take no responsibility for your actions. Its your body you take care of it dont ask me to pay for your lack of responsibility. Socialism encourage lack of excellence, slackers, parasites, and idiots. Once we take excess wealth away from those who don't need it we'll be able to fund free healthcare and free abortions.  Let me take your money so I can sit on my ass and get myself pregnant while you steel what you have earned. Disgusting! Socialism promotes thief's violeta23: HOW DOES IT PROMOTE SLACKERS AND PARASITES You can't just come in and assert something without a proper explanation, especially when I've just told you previously how it doesn't! You've basically ignored all I have said and asserted THE SAME THING YOU SAID IN THE PREVIOUS POST OHMYGODMYHEADISGOINGTOEXPLODE Barbara the Jew: Violeta you live in fantasy world my sis and bro in law are in the system. I know how it works. Lazy fucks!:outraged: violeta23: You still haven't answered my question. You've just asserted that you hate Socialism because you hate scroungers and your posts are poor because you're not giving any explanations. YOU'RE JUST ASSERTING. Maybe if I keep repeating it it'll get through. OCD_OCD: Violetta said "If anything my idea to introduce voluntary work to those on benefits would probably encourage them to get jobs. Lots of people don't want to 'work for nothing.' And if they don't get jobs, they're still giving something back anyway." The key words you use is "voluntary work for those on benefits". Voluntary. Voluntary means you don't work if you don't want to. We already have plenty of that. Unless I have misunderstood socialism, "working for the common good" means everyone working, not comrades who work when if and when the mood strikes them. "Voluntary" means they have no skin in the game, Violetta. They don't have to work to survive because they are going to force someone else to take care of them...because they can. Barbara the Jew: I gave you many explanations of why I find socialism unjust. I don't believe we should steal for the rich just because they are rich just so you can screw around and demand a free abortion and healthcare. You want it work for it. That is just! And as a women i find very uncountable that you believe is your right for other to clean up your mess (pay for your abortion) We (women) have fought for the right to be educated, be professionals , the right to vote, ect... I find it offensive that you would suggest that we need to be taken care for lack of responsibility. (abortion) violeta23: When I said voluntary work, I mean unpaid work. That's what we call unpaid work over here, like working in a council library or in a charity/thrift shop. It's very strange to implicitly accuse me of being a misogynist when you're willing to oppress your own gender through enforcing fees/payment for abortions. I think you haven't fully got it right, either. When I ask for an abortion because I need one, it's like a cancer patient needing chemo. Sometimes we need to be cared for. I don't understand how you correlate a woman needing a free abortion with female weakness. Your argument is nonsense. Barbara the Jew: Abortion should only be for rape, incest and if your life is in danger and this should be paid by your heath insurance. The rape by your rapist! It is not oppression to ask for my gender to take responsibility for there actions. If you have sex you will get pregnant. Asume the responsibilities that come with having sex. violeta23: What about if you just don't want to carry the parasitical fetus for 9 months and then support it for the next 18 years (+?) of its life. What if you can't afford health insurance? It's not oppressive to want your gender to take responsibility for their actions. However, unfortunately, the action you would decide to take to make them take responsibility IS unfair and oppressive. Barbara the Jew: Dont have sex! If you cant afford to get pregnant!!! And fetus are parasitical you are! violeta23: So those who don't have health insurance aren't allowed to have sex now? Are those without health insurance also not allowed to ride rollercoasters too? Because you never know, you can fall off a rollercoaster and crack your skull open! Christ....the most ridiculous logic...... you're going to deprive people of living their lives because they haven't got insurance? Going without sex, for many, is probably comparative to going without carbohydrates for the rest of your life. Sure, you can do it, but why should you? It's unfair. Our bodies like and enjoy the pleasure that sex brings just like....eating carbs. I don't know. But do you see what I mean? Not to mention it's a natural instinct too, some would argue it's something we literally cannot do without. Correct! The first thing you've been right about so far. I am a parasite. OCD_OCD: Violeta, I think you THINK you know about the US, but I'm not sure that what you THINK you know is actually true. LOL People without health insurance in the U.S. are given medical treatment. FREE medical treatment. You think that all of the pregnant illegal immigrants squat in the middle of the street and birth their children? Of course not. They go to hospitals just like everyone else does. All anyone has to do, legal or illegal, is go to an emergency room of a hospital and VOILA! free medical care. All anyone has to do, legal or illegal, is go to any city, county, state health office or Planned Parenthood and they get free birth control, condoms, checks for STD's, etc., so you might want to scale back your scathing remarks about how downtrodden everyone is in the U.S. because, quite frankly, it isn't true. The point is that the taxpayers of the US cannot afford to pay for every legal and illegal immigrant to come to the US and live for free. Simply can't do it and we shouldn't have to. OCD_OCD: LOL. I'm irrational and emotionally charged? When is the last time you heard a pregnant woman say...Hey, I'm about to push out a parasite? Or...I just gave my parasite it's first hair-cut. Or how about....I have to take that filthy parasite to it's first day of school? Barbara the Jew: look who talk about irrational and emotional charge Violeta, when you suggest women should whore around get themselves prego and have the people (tax payers) pay for it. Shameful attitude  and no i don't deprive people of anything I just expect them to take responsibility for their actions. violeta23: Never, because women usually have baby fever or actually wanted their child, so they'd never refer to it as what it actually is, 'parasite' carries negative connotations. Yes, you are irrationally and emotionally charged. You can't look at things objectively. But the women that were forced into keeping their child, sadly, probably do resent and hate their child and the fact they have to bring them up, which breeds a generation of potentially very unhappy people. Wouldn't you if you felt unwanted? So in a manner of speaking, yes, they probably do regard them as parasites. They may not directly use that word, though. OCD_OCD: Read my lips: There are no women in the US who are forced to keep their children. Abortion here is legal. violeta23: For religious reasons, for reasons of 'moral pressure,' if abortion was outlawed in that state or country, if abortion was unaffordable and too expensive. OCD_OCD: Abortion is legal in every single state in the US. Religious reasons? No one can make a woman have a baby she does not want. It may come as a surprise to you, but Catholics have abortions just like everyone else. Why? Because if they don't want a child, it's LEGAL to have an abortion here. Do you even know about the costs of an abortion in the US or are you just talking out of your nose again? Here is some info: Answer: The normal cost of a first-trimester abortion runs between $350 and $550, depending on subsidies, the method used, and other variables such as cost of living. A 2001 study conducted by the Guttmacher Institute found that the average overall cost of an abortion in the United States was $468, a figure that has probably risen since then due to inflation, but that the average amount paid for an abortion (due to subsidies) is $372. The Guttmacher Institute has also found that 87% of private health care plans cover abortion services--but because a disproportionately high number of people have substandard plans, only 46% of American workers are covered by policies that include abortion. Second-trimester abortions tend to be more expensive. At the Jackson Women's Health Organization, Mississippi's only remaining abortion clinic, a surgical abortion costs $405 if the pregnancy is in the first trimester, $495 at weeks 13-14, and $640 at weeks 15-16. Conventional wisdom would suggest that an abortion induced via RU-486/Mifepristone would cost less than a surgical abortion, but this is not necessarily the case. The Jackson Women's Health Organization, for example, charges $520 for a first-trimester RU-486 abortion--$115 more than a surgical abortion would cost. OCD_OCD: I don't make the laws in any country and you were up in my face about what happens HERE in the US when you should have said it was happening in your country or whatever country you are talking about, not here. When you lump the US in with whatever "other countries" you were referring to, you are incorrect. You have incorrect information and you are passing it off as the truth when it's not. Don't you think that is unfair? OCD_OCD: If you want to go save the women of third world countries, you might want to try to stop them from being raped and beaten by men because it is their religion and their culture. Then you can study and become a doctor and give your time and energy to aborting the children that are forced on those women. violeta23: The US is in included in countries where there's a great sense of religious and moral pressure on women not to have abortions. OCD_OCD: So YOU have decided that in the US there is a great sense of religious and moral pressure? That's interesting because our laws say that it isn't illegal. What someone THINKS about something doesn't make a damn because no one can keep anyone in the US from getting an abortion. Hell, my neighbor probably THINKS my trees are too big, but there's not a damned thing she can do about it, now is there? Thinking and doing are to very different things, Violeta. Try not to confuse the issue by saying what some people think can keep others from taking their own actions and making their own decisions. There's peer pressure everywhere. OCD_OCD: I may think that you shouldn't eat another McDonald's hamburger because your rear is two axe-handles wide, but if I give you a "you've got a big ass, why are you eating that" look, it isn't going to keep you from eating that hamburger, now is it? Why? Because you can eat all of the greasy hamburgers you want to because it's your right and it's legal. People can be as fat or as unhealthy as they want to be. Mean muggers can't do a damned thing about it. violeta23: Understand the difference between pressure and enforcement. The US is a highly religious country, Christianity is rampant in parts, there's a pressure there not to abort the fetus because Christians are pro-life, are they not? Usually they are, anyway. 'Do not kill' etc. etc. Wait, how did we get to talking abut trees? Your analogy makes no sense. If Christian Conservatives had their way (which they might) then abortion would be outlawed. Wasn't that something Coffrey said? They were planning to outlaw abortion in all cases. That's why I said, it's a PRESSURE. There's no enforcement, but there is a pressure which has the ability to dissuade many from making the right choice to abort. You can easily guilty people into doing/ not doing things. Easily. Damn right, people can be as fat and unhealthy as they like. Yeah! Also, having a big butt is hot. Barbara the Jew: If you dont want kids why are you having unprotected sex. There is no excuse in this country to do do. There is pharmacy in each corner. OCD_OCD: I completely understand the difference between pressure and enforcement. You, apparently don't understand that religious or peer pressure can't keep you from doing anything in the US unless you allow it. OCD_OCD: I live in the US, Violeta. You do not. How do you know what women here are forced and/or pressured to do or not do? OCD_OCD: I've spent a fair amount of time in the UK, but no way would I think that I could tell you all there is to know about the Brit culture, it's counter-culture or it's politics other than on the surface. violeta23: You don't have to live in a country to know about it. Pressure doesn't directly prevent action or inaction. Indirectly, however, it can and does sometimes. OCD_OCD: Here is the entirety of the current GOP 2012 platform regarding the Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life. http://whitehouse12.com/republican-party-platform/#Item14 The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life (Top) Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life. We oppose the non-consensual withholding or withdrawal of care or treatment, including food and water, from people with disabilities, including newborns, as well as the elderly and infirm, just as we oppose active and passive euthanasia and assisted suicide. Republican leadership has led the effort to prohibit the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortion and permitted States to extend health care coverage to children before birth. We urge Congress to strengthen the Born Alive Infant Protection Act by enacting appropriate civil and criminal penalties on healthcare providers who fail to provide treatment and care to an infant who survives an abortion, including early induction delivery where the death of the infant is intended. We call for legislation to ban sex-selective abortions – gender discrimination in its most lethal form – and to protect from abortion unborn children who are capable of feeling pain; and we applaud U.S. House Republicans for leading the effort to protect the lives of pain-capable unborn children in the District of Columbia. We call for a ban on the use of body parts from aborted fetuses for research. We support and applaud adult stem cell research to develop lifesaving therapies, and we oppose the killing of embryos for their stem cells. We oppose federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. We also salute the many States that have passed laws for informed consent, mandatory waiting periods prior to an abortion, and health-protective clinic regulation. We seek to protect young girls from exploitation through a parental consent requirement; and we affirm our moral obligation to assist, rather than penalize, women challenged by an unplanned pregnancy. We salute those who provide them with counseling and adoption alternatives and empower them to choose life, and we take comfort in the tremendous increase in adoptions that has followed Republican legislative initiatives. OCD_OCD: I am completely against partial birth abortion. That's freaking barbaric. To abort a baby, have it come out alive and breathing and then snip it's brain stem is....I don't even have words for that. violeta23: Yeah, I don't agree with that. That's unnecessarily cruel, to cause suffering to a sentient being, even if it is parasitical. It should be done before 24 weeks when it isn't sentient. But when it comes down to it, if a woman needs it...a woman needs it. OCD_OCD: It's bad enough when there has to be a choice made whether to save the mother or save the child, but to willingly do something like that is heinous. OCD_OCD: http://www.jillstanek.com/aborted-alive/22weeks-to-be-featured-at-cann.html You might want to see if this movie, 22 Weeks, which was shown at Cannes is available on the internet. It's a true story and it is horrific. I still believe that women should have a choice, but what happened in this instance was something that no female should ever be put through. And the abortion mill refused to allow medical help for the aborted child when the mother was screaming over the phone for emergency medics to save her baby.  lavendar_star: wow, that is some sick stuff written by so called educated and powerful men who share these views on women and rape, truly disgusting I am not going into the party politics of it all being British but if any politicians in the UK said any of those statements I would hope they would never work in politics again. However, if the US outlaws abortion and criminalises women that would so backward and hope the rest of the Western countries including my own make our objections loud and clear. What will happen is that rich, middle class women will go to Canada to get a abortion and poor women will get butchered in Mexico because women will have abortions regardless its been happening for centuries. I guess if abortion is made illegal more women will go prison and more children will become motherless. Also how can one be pro life but pro death penalty and pro guns bit of a oxymoron belief system. OCD_OCD: Abortion is not going to be made illegal in the US, Lav. And no matter what anyone tells you, no one is trying to make it illegal. lavendar_star in reply to violeta23: Well I'm not too sure, I mean if someone can not afford to pay for one I guess I have no problem with it, not to sound cold lol but isnt it better to pay for a one of payment for a woman to get a abortion, then for the women being on welfare for however long costing much more to the tax payer. lavendar_star in reply to OCD_OCD: Well on the news in the UK they reported that the wannabe VP to Romney wants a ban on abortion with no exceptions as do some other Republicans. so Im not sure.  OCD_OCD: Some people do want to ban it, but it is not on any official agenda, although our African Anerican evangelicals are rabidly against abortion, just like the Catholics and some others. The fact that they dont like it is irrelevant because the Supreme Court has already decided that abortions are legal and there is no grounds for the issue to be brought before them again for a decision. Right now we are down to who will pay for it. Coffrey: To ocd : http://www.aclu.org/reproductive-freedom/burdensome-clinic-regulations Republics have excelled at getting around the law. The biggest example is their new focus on the ACA. Since it's now deemed constitutional, they are going to stymy all the funding to it instead. As with these abortion clinics, in most democratically controlled states, it's been okay but in republican states, they have basically targeted abortion clinics out of nothing except politics. I think that there is just fundamental disagreement on subjective issues. For instance, violeta and I think that sex is as natural as eating or drinking or sleeping. Except for a percentage or two of the population, we all that biological imperative to engage in that act. We don't think it's something that anyone should be punished for it, like it's something bad. Whereas ocd and barbara do see it is as a punishable offense to have sex without protection, like we all haven't been there before. Also, violeta and I do think that healthcare is a right, that just because you were born into poverty with no opportunity, you should suffer in squalor just because a few health insurance companies want to give their CEOs an extra $100,000 a year. Ocd and barbara thinks that anyone who has wealth has done so legitimately, and thus should be put on a pedestal for it. They've become convinced by the male-dominated society that abortion isn't a healthcare issue, it's a personal responsibility issue. I say this all the time, if men got pregnant, you better believe it would be absolutely paid for by the state or their insurance company without hesitation. I think the most stark difference is ocd and barbara's willingness to forgo any sort of coverage of abortion because a few people may do nothing but have sex and abortions all day. Please please, oh please let me meet this theoretical person. I would just like to sit outside an abortion clinic and get interviews from the women going in and I bet you that not even 1 out of 100 is like you say. But let's say it is, so what? I'll use a few examples to show that, in any other case, you two wouldn't have a problem with it. 1. Alcohol. In 2009, 33,808 people were killed in traffic accidents. 10,839 of these deaths was a result of alcohol (32% of all traffic deaths). Under that logic, we should criminalize the sale, distribution, and possession of alcohol because more than a few are so irresponsible as to kill people. do you agree with this? 2. Oil subsidies. In the United States, credible estimates of annual fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually. A subsidy is assistance paid to a business or economic sector. Most subsidies are made by the government to producers or distributed as subventions in an industry to prevent the decline of that industry. Considering that there are no "mom and pop" oil companies and that fact that oil is probably the most used product on the planet, is it necessary to prop up this billion dollar industry? The irresponsibility of taking tax payer money just to beef up your own billion dollar company.... isn't that worth taking this away? Barbara the Jew: Abortion is murder! I women that aborts her child i not a feminist but a murder and should face murder charges.   lavendar_star: OMG Barbie you cant be serious, wow and I guess a woman who has a miscarriage should be charged with manslaughter. violeta23: Not sentient yet, it doesn't matter. If you care so much about murder, why don't you go vegan? I don't see you complaining about the slaughter of millions of innocent, vulnerable beings. And they do feel pain. Little parasitical shrimps do not. Barbara the Jew: and they are not paradisaical shrimps you are. Violetta Expecting others to pay for your abortions Coffrey: Okay, abortion is murder, that's fine. Let's just take that thing, zygote, embryo, fetus whatever you want to call it, out of the woman and see how it fares 
Barbara the Jew: you cant take it out with out killing it! like dismembering it alive, or sucking him down the tube while his heart is still beating. lavendar_star in reply to violeta23: Yes we have similar opinions it seems. I just find it amazing that people who live in a country with sanction state murder and many abused and neglected children dont focus their care and outrage on those issues. violeta23: Hahaha, the more you insult me, the harder I laugh. Accusing me of not being a real feminist when you're overtly denying women rights very nearly makes me want to pity you. How can people be so stupid and illogical and...irrational? Christ. What emotional beings we are that we value the life of a parasite over the woman's right to choice and the consideration quality of life. Shows how bad the patriarch has got. Women are the bottom of the pecking order in society, and what's worse is that my own gender is perpetuating our oppression. OCD_OCD: Women are NOT at the bottom of the pecking order in the US. I don't believe they are in the bottom of the pecking order in the UK either. Where they are being abused is in Middle Eastern and African countries and cultures. I'm not sure how you feel we are being oppressed, either. violeta23: 'Issue' implies there's something to be discussed. There's nothing to be discussed on whether a fetus is a parasite. It feeds of its mother for 9 months and then the next 18 years, typically. The mother is its host. par·a·site/ˈparəˌsīt/ Noun: An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense. derogatory. A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return. Sounds about right to me. Barbara the Jew: yes it is outrage that people neglect there children Lavender. i think that we as humans beings most consider the rights of all the living. My right ends when the stake of a human live is in stake. it is only when we have become degenerates that we take pleasure in the murder of innocents and claim is our right. A women has a right to be educated, to get equal pay, to a job she is qualified for, to use birth control and to have sex just like man. I am an advocate for responsabilty. We as women must take the responsibility that come with having sex. Coffrey: Sure you can take it out, women have C sections all the time. Violeta's point of it being a parasite is exactly right. Now maybe saying it's still a parasite after its born is a bit much, but you just admitted Barb, it cannot exist outside of the host----- the mother and since it is literally dependent on the mother, isn't it her choice to decide if she wants it in? I'm going to make another horrible comparison you're going to hate it's akin to a doctor telling you "I cannot treat this virus, it's a living thing, you will have to put up with it for the rest of its lifespan" Barbara the Jew: It this is what humanity boils down too If I dont give anything in return to society i should be murdered? Hitler had that same ideology! (Post deleted by violeta23 ) lavendar_star: Oh barbie you brought out Hitler tut tut, will I give you Mussolini who was a communist and outlawed abortion. Are you against the death penalty then!!!! Anyway, I just wonder what gives you or anybody else or your government to tell a woman what to do!!!! violeta23: No, we'll just strip people of rights and not give them money to live on. That'll teach them! Humanity 'boils down' to compassion and empathy for human beings. Parasites are not human beings. Human being's rights > parasite's 'supposed' rights Allowing emotions to govern us instead of rationality and reason stunts societal growth. OCD_OCD: Responsibility comes at a price. As I've said, I'm pro-choice. People who believe that life begins at conception and have a religious tenet against abortion should be allowed to believe the way they want and voice their opinion. Women who feel like they need or want to take the route of abortion will have to live with that responsibility, just as women who give up their children for adoption will. Conceiving a child is not an evil thing and a child is not a parasite. It is cause and effect. Sex causes it, the effect is a pregnancy. How that will affect someone's life is up to them. They can be happy about it, or they can be upset, depending on the circumstances. Abortion should not be used as a form of contraception, particularly when contraception is free. That is barbaric and selfish. This is where responsibility comes in. Responsibility for yourself and responsibility for the live you bring into the world or the life you kill in your womb. Take that responsibility and don't make it anyone else's responsibility. Doesn't matter whether you choose to have the child or abort it. It's YOUR responsibility, not mine and not anyone else's. Coffrey: Oh here we go "Hitler liked abortions!". Barb, for real? Reductio ad Hitlerum? Really? That's not even what I'm saying. The point I'm trying to make is the person who is already born and living independently should be given more of a say especially since it's concerning her body. Parasites cannot live outside the host, i.e. being of which they derive nutrients. Fetuses cannot live outside of the mother, i.e. being of which they derive nutrients. A = B. B = C.. A = C Coffrey: We can disagree on this, that, and the other, but can we at least agree that you cannot push your morality on other people? Barbara the Jew: Hitler believed that does that dont produce anything to society should be murdered, just as Violetta sugested a baby should. That had nothing to do with the fact that he was a fascist Mousolinni was not a communist but a fascist a catholic facist and his desition had to do with his Christians views and you know well tht I am no Christian ! As far as telling people what to do I dont see what does that have to with it. i have to follow the laws like everyone else what gives the goverment the right to tell me what to do? Why is it ok for some one to dismember another human alive. Is it ok for me to dismember another human alive? If I do should I get punished for it? If i do get punished for it what right do you or anyone else has to tell me i should not commit murder!?  Aura: That's the point here isn't it? It's related to sex. You are paying also for lifestyle choices of others related to drinking, smoking, lack of exercise and over eating. All that is probably more than you are paying for abortions. It's not like a woman needs an abortion every month, but lipitor needs to be taken every day. However that's not related to sex, so it's no big deal.... violeta23: But if you're not killing a life because there's no development of the neoxortex so they're not sentient then why does soup taste so good? I will take responsibility when you take responsibility for the act of severity of what you're doing. Coffrey: Let me try an example, Barb. What if every time you went to eat or drink something, a man would take 37% of it every time? And whenever you sat down, he would sit in your lap? Let's say there is no legal recourse, would you endure that for 9 months? Barbara the Jew: I have been pregnant 2 and i have 2 children Coffrey and is not what you compare it to. And yes I would have more children if I could! violeta23: No but the instant someone insists they don't want human soup it means taking away for some time in jail. Know what I'm saying? OCD_OCD: I seriously hope some of you don't ever decide to have a child.  For someone who doesn't want to have a child, then they should have an abortion, particularly if they feel like Coffrey and Violeta feel about children. I wouldn't wish those feelings on a child. I'm going to say this one more time. Kill it if you want to, but make it your choice and your responsibility. The people who smoke are obese, etc., already have to pay a higher premium for health insurance so they are paying for their excess. A portion of that cost is directly assessed to the individual. Yes, a portion of the cost of general unhealthiness is borne by all taxpayers, just as the cost for free contraception is borne by all taxpayers. Abortion is a hot-button issue because of personal and religious beliefs. Being fat and smoking are not essentially religious no-nos. Barbara the Jew:  What does having or stoping to have children have to with murder. Yes i have stopped having children because it is my choice, however even if I dont expect or dont want to be pregnant If I do become pregnant I would have the child. I am not against sex, or birth control. i am against murder. Violetta you have yet to tell me what does soup have to do with human babies? violeta23: I'm for murdering religion though, does that make me a bad person or just morally confused? I want lots of babies. With Coffrey, actually. Yes yes. We're going to have a big mansion in Parkview, London and raise lots of parasites together. Going to be very nice time for us all. Fat is not necessarily unhealthy. Stop being fat-phobic. lavendar_star in reply to Barbara the Jew: So your also against the death penalty then????that;s good to hear Barbie. I just thought people have the right to do what they wish to do with their BODIES, to force a woman to go through a pregnancy against their will which might emotionally, physically or mentality harm them is so wrong. I should become a vegetarian and start calling all you meat eater murderers, as I could think that a animals life is equal to a humans, as do some people. I agree with you though OCD someone can struggle to deal with having abortion but for some they believe they have no choice. Barbara the Jew: : laugh: Being raised by you they sure will become parasitic Miss i want the government to pay for my mistakes and what is in it for me. attitude keep up the good work and showing the ugly sides of socialism. socialism the idea of caring for the less fortunate (a noble one in that) has become a free for all with no consecuences to actions. and to society! lavendar_star in reply to Barbara the Jew: Wait a min Barbie your complaining about socialism, but your wanting to force women to have babies which you could do by outlawing it and having your government forcing people to have a baby against their well, because you care about the unfortunate foetus. Im confused. OCD_OCD: No, Barbie. I did not mean to infer that religion is the ONLY reason that people are against abortion. Violeta, you may not believe in God and you may not believe in organized religion. Personally, I don't believe in organized religion either. However, you have no right to "murder" religion. People should be allowed to believe as they will as long as that belief does not include the attempt to eradicate others because they do not believe as you do. Lavendar, I also believe that an abortion should not be done as a matter of course. I can't see any female (other than a truly hardened one or an abused one) who would rush to the abortion clinic without having given it some serious thought. A woman SHOULD spend time considering her life and the life of her child before making that decision. It's not like popping a zit, although some seem to believe it is. A woman has a choice and it should never be made lightly. I, for one, believe that a woman should also take into account the wishes of the father. There are instances where a man would be willing to be a sole parent/provider for a child when the woman would not. Just because men do not bear children should not force them out of the equation. Yes, the last say belongs with the woman, but there are many things to take into consideration first. Coffrey in reply to OCD_OCD: I think most abortions are last resort kinds of things and I guess I'm biased being a man and the one who would usually be paying child support, the man should have a say. Like if the man wants the abortion but she doesn't, okay, but he shouldn't have to pay for child support either.
Barbara the Jew: i am confused where did i say I dont believe in socialism? I just expresing some of the ugly sides of it. I am not trying to force anyone to have or not to have children. If the women decides not to have children there are many ways to avoid pregnancy. I have Never expressed the RIGHT to use this contraceptives and the right to have or not to have. I am against murder of the innocent! lavendar_star in reply to Coffrey: Good point, even though unlike a woman, men can walk away from the responsibilities of that child. I know one friend( who i am guessing people would want locked up or burn at the stake) and she had a abortion, since 17 she has been looking after her younger sister and even younger disabled brother and that's what she felt she couldnt have that child and I would fight and advocate for her and others right to do so. I just like how people want to tell people they dont even know how to live their lives and what they can do with their bodies and they say they hate communism. lavendar_star in reply to lavendar_star: I should add my friend mother died at that and she has sole responsibility for her sibling, her brother had quite bad autism. People dont know how or what people have going on in their lives. OCD_OCD: There are women who intentionally become pregnant so they can get child support. Look at all of the stupid (really stupid) sports professionals who are baby daddies many times over. Greedy, disgusting females use their ability to breed to get into their wallets. The horn dog guys think that they can boff their way through thousands of girls with no repercussions. Doesn't work that way and the price they pay is child support. If a man or woman doesn't want to have a child, they need to take precautions. If the chick says she's on the pill and he wants to risk it, not knowing whether she's telling the truth or not, then he deserves what he gets because he's just as stupid as she is a greedy skank. Some men feel more manly by fathering a ton of kids. It doesn't make them a father, it makes them a rabid sperm machine. Some women feel like they should have lots of kids so that the government or the baby daddies should support them. That makes them nothing more than rabid baby machines. Both are equally disgusting. Barbara the Jew: this case is diferent Lavender I would have gladly stepped in and a dopted the bay or even helped your friend out. This is not about communism this is about live. This is about people if i murder someone should i not go to jail? lavendar_star: As I put before contraception is not 100% and you know what maybe welfare should be cut further but if it is and women who may get accidentally pregnant and can not afford that child ( and some children may not be able to get adopted) then they should have a abortion if they so wish. Or would people rather a country where you have load of starving children.!!!!! Barbara the Jew: Lav you can avoid getting pregnant if you want to. In the US there are many couples looking for the opportunity to adopt! violeta23: "Greedy, disgusting females use their ability to breed to get into their wallets. " Misogyny alert. Misogyny alert. Can I have chocolate with my waffles? OCD_OCD: Stating a fact, Violeta. There are women who get pregnant specifically for that reason. It's not misogyny, it's a fact. The fact that I am female and admit that these women exist doesn't make me a misogynist. LOL There are women who churn out babies for the child support and governmental support. All of the feminism in the world will stop this little truth from being a truth. You talk about feminism and women being victims. Women like that are not victims. Men who whine about having to pay child support because they feel like they should be able to have an inordinate amount of children to sooth their egos are not victims either. on that, Violeta. Women can be and are as cunning and cutthroat as men. OCD_OCD: Dangit. EDIT::::> All of the feminism in the world will NOT stop this little truth from being a truth. Barbara the Jew: What the Unborn Sense in the Womb Interview With Dr. Carlo Bellieni ROME, 4 OCT. 2005 (ZENIT) During its gestation the fetus is "already a member of the family and company for the mother even before being born," says neonatologist Carlo Bellieni. Dr. Bellieni of the Department of Neonatal Intensive Therapy of the University Polyclinic Santa Maria Le Scotte of Siena talked with ZENIT about his research on life-before-birth for his latest book "L'Alba dell'Io" (Dawn of the I), published by Società Editrice Fiorentina. Q: Until the 1980s it was thought that the maternal uterus was a sort of strongbox for the fetus. What has changed since then? Bellieni: Very much. Today we know that the fetus is a pluri-sensorial being whose senses enter into action with a pre-ordained sequence: first, tactility is manifested; then the chemical; the sense of balance; hearing; and finally sight. The early development of the senses in the uterus has a double function: that of forming the central nervous system, providing stimuli which interact with the growth of groups of neurons, directing it on a physiological path, and of introducing the unborn to the exterior world — bringing about a kind of learning in the uterus. lavendar_star: Number of children waiting to be adopted on March 31, 2000 5 134,000* in the UShttp://www.cwla.org/advocacy/nationalfactsheet02.htm, so I would say like the UK there more children needed to be adopted then are being adopted. I cant find a up to date figures, which why I wont include the figures from that website which state 4 million American children live below the bread line and we have similar high figure in the UK and high numbers going in to care. to be honest some shouldnt have children. violeta23: It's misogyny to generalise about the female gender and call them 'greedy and disgusting.' The nature of that statement is misogyny. Demonising women for having children and wanting money because they have none. OCD_OCD: I did not generalize all of the female gender, Violeta. I specifically pointed out what type of women are disgusting. The reason for having children is not to "get money because you have none". THAT is disgusting. Women are supposed to be nurturing and WANT to have their children because they love them and want to raise them, not because her vagina is a freakin' slot machine and can pump out government checks. OCD_OCD: That's a far cry from forcing women to have a child, Violeta. I said I didn't want to pay for it, not that I'm going to force them to have it. OCD_OCD: I don't want to pay for your car or your clothes, either. You know why? Because they are yours. I buy mine, you buy yours. OCD_OCD: No, I'm not doing anything. It's a choice the woman has to make. Does she have to do without birth control? No. If you have a car accident and can't afford to have it fixed, you are going to have to walk or take public transport. The point is that everyone else doesn't have to make sacrifices for your problems. There are groups in the US that give free abortions. If you want one, get on a train, plane, bus or cab. Why do I have to make it convenient for you? violeta23: Do you not understand the subtly of an indirect consequence? You force a woman to pay for her abortions, she can't afford it, ergo the only other option is to KEEP THE CHILD. Unless you throw her down the stairs or something. The analogy doesn't stand because a car is a luxury, an abortion is a necessity. Barbara the Jew: an abortion is not a necessity Is a want! Adoption is another option. And so is birth control! OCD_OCD: It is your personal necessity, not mine. It is your personal responsibility to make whatever choice you make. What you do not understand is that other people should be given the choice of whether to help you or not. You have no right to demand that other people step up and fix your problems. Many organizations will because people donate to them to help people, but taking away my choice to give in favor of your demand to take is not right. violeta23: But a necessity, all the same. And since it's a necessity, ERGO EVERYBODY POTENTIALLY NEEDING (not wanting, needing!) IT, it should be available to all regardless of financial status. Adoption is an option, but abortion is a necessity for women who want to make that choice as to whether they want to undergo a pregnancy or not. Imagine if everything worked the way you selfish people want it to, where necessities come at a cost. Can't afford that loaf of bread? Too fucking bad! I can! I can afford 10 if I want to! And too bad if you suffer because I have a disproportionate amount of wealth to you. It's not my responsibility to feed you/clothe you/ pay for your necessities just because I can afford to. But you see the thing is.....yes it is. Jesus was a socialist, even. The New Testament encourages charity and sharing, not fucking hoarding your wealth at the expense of someone else who suffers because of it. We live in a SOCIETY, we're not our own little individuals in a bubble floating around, we contribute to one big wealth 'pot', and you're not the only person that has needs in a society. It is our duty as compassionate human beings to be charitable and considerate and make sure everybody has access to basic necessities like healthcare and equal access to opportunities regardless of financial status. Barbara the Jew: I am not a christian Violetta, however stealing for the rich and murdering the innocent is not a necessaty nor is it charity! Compassionate human beings dont murder and believe that even babies and children have the right to live. and should not be labeled as parasite because they are the weakest of our society. Barbara the Jew: There are many places in the United States that help you with food and items if you are in need. Did you know they are christian churches the one that sponser them. |
I was going to say the same thing violeta23. 
murder is!