science denialism (Page 8)

AchillesSinatra: "Where do you see that?"


In the fossil record.

100 million years ago (perhaps) there was nothing that looked remotely human.

5 million years ago there was.

zeffur: re: "100 million years ago (perhaps) there was nothing that looked remotely human. 5 million years ago there was. "

So what? Does that mean you think it's ok to just pretend that means humans must have evolved from some other creature when science has never been able to prove such a belief is a fact? How could anyone possibly believe such a tactic is a sound basis to claim 'evolution is a scientific fact'??

AchillesSinatra: "Does that mean you think it's ok to just pretend that means humans must have evolved from some other creature when science has never been able to prove such a belief is a fact?"


Who's pretending? I believe it.

Seems you suffer from some kinda paranoia under which anyone who disagrees with you is a liar,

zeffur: How could anyone possibly believe such a tactic is a sound basis to claim 'evolution is a scientific fact'??

AchillesSinatra: That's their business. I haven't a clue what a "scientific fact" is supposed to be.

zeffur:
re: "Seems you suffer from some kinda paranoia under which anyone who disagrees with you is a liar,"

No, I find it incredible anyone would possibly believe such drivel is a 'scientific fact'.

AchillesSinatra: These frothing evolutionists sure do exaggerate a lot. I'll happily grant you that.

Not at all unlike you religious nutjobs.

zeffur: Exaggerate? That's an understatement. There is NO sound basis for their fairytale as far as I can see.

At least reasonable religious people don't pretend their beliefs are facts. That lie is exclusively in the domain of evolutioners.

AchillesSinatra: "At least reasonable religious people don't pretend their beliefs are fact."

Er no. To believe a certain proposition is, by definition, to believe that it is true. In other words, to believe a certain proposition is to believe that it is a fact.

AchillesSinatra: What are you trying to tell us? Religious people say "I believe P but I don't think it's true"?

zeffur: Belief is accepting something as true without being able to prove it is true.

Asserting something is a 'scientific fact' is asserting it is true when there isn't any scientific proof that evolution is true, then a person is being dishonest--that is what evolutioners do all the time.

Honest, reasonable, & intelligent religious people don't claim their beliefs are facts--they state plainly that they are beliefs.

AchillesSinatra: To say "I believe [insert proposition P here] JUST IS to say "I believe P is a fact".

This is what you seem unable to grasp.

If not, provide a counterexample

zeffur: re: "AchillesSinatra: "To believe a certain proposition is, by definition, to believe that it is true. In other words, to believe a certain proposition is to believe that it is a fact."

No. That ^^ is a perversion of what a belief & a fact are. It's incredible that you still can't understand or that you are still being such a weasel about what is so perfectly clear to any honest person.

AchillesSinatra: Well, where's that counterexample I requested?

zeffur: What counter example?

AchillesSinatra: FFS, dude! What you're telling us a (rational) person can say "I believe P but I don't think P is a fact"

AchillesSinatra: How can a person believe something that they don't think is a fact?

Give me a counterexample

zeffur: I had to refresh my screen. Take a chill pill dude.

The proper example is:

I believe A is true, but, I don't have proof that it IS true.

vs

Evolution's dishonest rubbish, which is:

I assert B is a fact--but, I don't have any proof that it is a fact/true.
Hence, making such a statement is dishonest since there is NO proof that it IS true. The only honest statement such a person can make is that s/he 'believes' what s/he thinks may be true.

zeffur: re: "AchillesSinatra: How can a person believe something that they don't think is a fact?"

They can NOT assert it is a fact/true unless they know it is a fact/true--which would require verification/proof--which evolutioners don't have--hence the reason they are dishonest whenever they make such an assertion.

AchillesSinatra: As myself, and countless other members have pointed out, to try to correct Zeffur constitutes an exercise in futility. He is either too dense to grasp simple reasoning, or too lacking in integrity to admit of correction.

Readers may decide for themselves. Zeffur tells us (a few posts above):

"At least reasonable religious people don't pretend their beliefs are fact."


So do these religious people think their beliefs are facts or not?

Why would a (sane) person believe something they don't consider to be true (i.e., a fact)?




Is Zeffur seriously trying to tell us that when a religious person says, for example, "I believe Jesus is the only begotten son of God" they don't consider it to be true (i.e., a fact)?

AchillesSinatra: Well, here's an easy answer next time the God-botherers come knocking on your door, folks.

"I believe Jesus is the son of God. Do you have a minute?" - God-botherer

"Well, Zeffur tells me you don't pretend your beliefs are facts. If not even you believe it to be a fact, why should I? Now fuck off!" - you

zeffur: re: "So do these religious people think their beliefs are facts or not?"

Belief is accepting something as true, so obviously they think what they believe is true--but, they don't know for certain because they don't have proof that it is true--which is the reason that they don't call it a fact--because to assert something IS a fact you would have to actually KNOW it is a fact. And if it truly is a verified fact, then obviously it IS a proven fact & not a belief. A fact & a belief are not synonyms.

re: "Why would a (sane) person believe something they don't consider to be true (i.e., a fact)?"

Because, unlike you, all educated sane people understand the difference between a belief & a fact. Considering something true, something actually being proven to be true, & asserting something is a fact/true when you don't KNOW it is a fact/true are all very different things--you know--except in Colin's confused mind. Do you really lack the brain power to understand this or are you putting me on because you're just being a tedious troll?

AchillesSinatra: "At least reasonable religious people don't pretend their beliefs are fact." - Zeffur

"Belief is accepting something as true, so obviously they think what they believe is true [i.e., a fact - Achilles]" - Zeffur


If that's not a contradiction, folks, .... well, what did you expect?

AchillesSinatra: They don't pretend their beliefs are facts . . . but they believe their beliefs are facts?

zeffur: re: "Is Zeffur seriously trying to tell us that when a religious person says, for example, "I believe Jesus is the only begotten son of God" they don't consider it to be true (i.e., a fact)?"

No, they state it as a belief--not as a fact because they can't prove what they believe is true. If they had proof, they wouldn't have a belief--they'd have a proven fact.

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re: "AchillesSinatra: "At least reasonable religious people don't pretend their beliefs are fact." - Zeffur

"Belief is accepting something as true, so obviously they think what they believe is true [i.e., a fact - Achilles]" - Zeffur

If that's not a contradiction, folks, .... well, what did you expect?"

The contradiction is introduced by your faulty inclusion "[i.e., a fact - Achilles]"
They don't believe a belief is a fact as you just erroneously implied.