science denialism (Page 11) murrayduan: Al Gore said we would be gone a long time ago AOC said we would be dead (in 10 more years from now) Many more from all over. " The model is from a UN Report that says the damage will be inseverable in 10 years if nothing is done. At that point the Planet and us will start dyeing. Scientists having a job if they don't offer dire unfounded predictions is silly. Like saying if Medical Doctors don't invent new diseases an viruses they are out of work. Both can promote positive spins if it was possible and keep working. Gore has made a lot of money mostly from investments and work. "Gore made the bulk of his money as a media mogul and an Apple board member. In January 2013, he pocketed about $70 million after taxes from selling the Current TV network he co-founded in 2004 to Qatari broadcaster Al Jazeera. He’s earned tens of millions more in recent years by selling off Apple stock awarded when he joined the tech giant’s board of directors in 2003. “He would be way more influential if he admitted to everyone he’s been putting his money where his mouth is." So take it with a grain of salt when the right says its from his carbon credit deal. No Obama doesn't drive a Volt or Tesla. In fact he doesn't drive at all for security reasons. The secret service drive him around. So even less carbon then driving a volt himself. murrayduan: As for Gore let me add, if anyone has earned the right to sit back and clip coupons and be angry at the system it is he. He won the election in 2000 and had the Florida Supreme Court give it to Bush. Still he has spent much of his life working to make this Planet better. He also has most likely spewed less Carbon into our air then Trump has in just 3.5 years of playing Golf. murrayduan: IMO an involved Gov. is necessary. Righty cry's about it all the time yet over and over want the Gov. to work for them or enforce their agendas, like Health Care only for those who can afford it, restrict voting or abortions, prevent liability of their part for stupid decisions. I don't believe Gov. is there to maximize ones successes but to limit the impact of Americans failures. I have been impacted by local Gov. for about 2.75 Million Dollars in loses the last 15 years and still see a need for good Gov. Imagine the State of the Union under Trump without checks and balances from other parts of the Gov.  kittybobo34: After having visited the social democracies of the Scandinavian nations. I am convinced our gov. could be doing much more to assist the lower levels of our society and make it possible for everyone to work to a better tomorrow. murrayduan: I hear most of the time, why don't they just clean up and get a job. It is not that easy. There are people who are just not very employable because of the way they look appearance wise. I have hired street people who have few teeth left, not much in the way of clothes, not very attractive, not who customers or employers want to be around. People who are single parent, no income because spouse left them like that, mentally not very sociable. yes drugs to dull the pain, those people cant just go get a job and get on with their lives. Even those who can find a job, what then, where do they live, what do they drive, try to find a small place to live one can move into with no money, credit history, no renting history, affordable, etc. We need to face it not everyone can support themselves yet righty is clamoring for everyone to have the baby afford one or not. Bring up that child, then righty says don't expect us to help make it on its own. Yikes But hey lets give more to Corporate Welfare then Social Welfare because the wealthy need the help. I swear it is an illness being Conservative. kittybobo34: Zeff,, once again we see the opposite side of the facts. Your "wrong again" article implies that we always get it wrong, I say we saw the disaster coming and found away around it. the world food shortage,, genetics found a way to produce super food plants. the ozone hole,,,, science found a way to eliminate the chemicals that were causing it the coming ice age,, its still coming, but global warming via too much co2 is countering that, but giving us another worse problem.. the population problem, again science gave us birth control and womens rights to decide. This has stopped the expanding population of the western nations that have it. (Edited by kittybobo34)  Campion: Over the last while I have been pondering a phenomenon that has actually been going for a very long time. I am referring to Denialists and Conspiracy Theorists. While they might seem to be different behaviours, I think they have a commonality in the sort of mind that subscribes to them. What also struck me as curious is the number of them that are centered around science, technology and medicine. Let me list a few. >> the link between tobacco and cancer, particularly lung cancer >> the fluoridation of water supplies to prevent tooth decay >> the role of chlorofluorinated hydrocarbons in the deterioration of the ozone layer >> the build up of DDT in the food chain and its effect on both reproduction success in birds and human health. >> the link between HIV and AIDS >> the role of vaccination in causing other health issues >> the historicity of the moon landings >>UFOs and aliens >>flat earth >> chemtrails >> the human role in CO2 production and climate change >> the Theory of Evolution This is hardly an exhaustive list and it is easy to also point out others that have very little, if any, linkage to science, technology or medicine. For example, the historicity of the Holocaust, of the Twin Towers, of the assassination of President Kennedy and of both President Obama's birth place and religion. What most puzzles me most is the state of mind of both those who advocate these theories and those who so readily subscribe to them. I will throw out a few random thoughts here in the hope that they will generate some discussion. >> fear and powerlessness --- people feel overwhelmed by events that are beyond their control and require a scapegoat on which to pin their frustration and their anger. >> fear and ignorance --- people are frightened by their own lack of understanding of the concepts and issues involved and suggest that 'the intellectuals' are trying to put one over on them. >> the 'little guy syndrome' --- people fear big organizations, big government in particular, and feel the need to lash out at them by suggesting that the little guy is being somehow exploited. >>contrarianism --- some people love to be different just for the sake of it >>special knowledge syndrome --- a form of elitism where people like to feel they have some special or secret knowledge that makes them feel smarter and/or better informed than the rest, even if it doesn't have much practical application. >> religion and political ideologies --- in at least a few cases the culprit is viewed as challenging religious and/or political beliefs. To illustrate this last point we could look at two examples. Political --- the fluoridation of water supplies to prevent tooth decay was opposed as a tactic by communists to poison the whole nation. This was particularly effective in the days of the 'red menace' but has a modern counterpart in the paranoia surrounding international terrorism. Religious --- new technologies are viewed as challenging religious understandings. This goes back a long way in history. Two hundred years ago Timothy Dwight, Presbyterian minister and president of Yale University wrote “If God had decreed from all eternity that a certain person should die of smallpox, it would be a frightful sin to avoid and annul that decree by the trick of vaccination.” Today we see an echo of that religious fear in the debate surrounding stem cell research. My final observation is that it seems to me that denialists, conspiracy theorists, and biblical fundamentalists / creationists are often the same people. kittybobo34: You make some very good points Campion,, it seems to me that fear is the basis behind all of them. Ancient christianity used to use that fear, with their fire and brimstone sermons. After a lifetime of being fed the propaganda of religion that explains all things, to have some scientists tell them its all wrong, can shake their foundations to the point of bringing a fear reaction.  zeffur: re: "kittybobo34: Zeff,, once again we see the opposite side of the facts. Your "wrong again" article implies that we always get it wrong, I say we saw the disaster coming and found away around it. the world food shortage,, genetics found a way to produce super food plants. the ozone hole,,,, science found a way to eliminate the chemicals that were causing it the coming ice age,, its still coming, but global warming via too much co2 is countering that, but giving us another worse problem.." Lol.. we fell bass-ackwards into it by burning fossil fuels & unintentionally increasing CO2--which lead to higher harvests--etc. Then we later realized amongst ourselves after we had to deal with our growing pollution problems, that we probably prevented an imminent ice age that was coming, by the unwitting consequences of our desire for more convenient transportation, more electricity, etc. re: "the population problem, again science gave us birth control and womens rights to decide. This has stopped the expanding population of the western nations that have it." Population growth didn't give us BC--we invented it so we could put females to work to increase wealth. The legal right to allow women to conspire with a medical professional to murder a fetus wasn't an improvement--it was a tragedy. A better method would have been to legally license births & penalize people who violated the law via ligation surgery (that they are required by law to pay for when they violate the law).  rmclark: My last response concerning climate change. My original statement was against public officials fear mongering the people. By them making statements like that you have people like Poor Greta Thungberg and thousands like her convinced that they won't lived to see 20. You have people thinking if we don't pass the "Green new Deal" right now and Trump is killing all of us. Are we really going to tear down all our buildings and build new ones. You think that's a good idea I realize that its a UN report ( and that's a whole "nuther" subject), but when these people repeat it, they must either believe it hook line and sinker. Scientist. I'm not saying that its all about the money. You do realize that credible scientist well educated ones deny some of the "Facts". don't you. And before you say their findings are paid for by oil companies, I think one should consider that its a possibility that some of the scientists from your camp could be paid, to maybe overstate some of these models that people want to push off as absolute positively, going to happen scenario's I realize Gore is a wealthy man and he made it different ways. But the Carbon Credit thing for the most part is a hoax. If we are all going to die because of our carbon footprint and someone doesn't want to make a smaller footprint to save the earth. What good does it do to buy carbon credits. It might make someone feel good doing it. I wonder how many of those trees that they planted with CC money are burning as we speak. Bottom like, It looks real bad Gore making millions while pushing climate change and carbon credits. Would you be upset if Trump would of thought of it first? I agree that the earth is warming, I just question how muck is man made. The earth has been warming since before Fred Flintstone started driving. Obama said he would buy a Volt I understand the daughter is driving and He could of purchased a used Volt. My bet is he didn't. kittybobo34: rmclark,," I agree that the earth is warming, I just question how muck is man made. " That determination has been made. Carbon has many isotopes, so we can tell just how much carbon in the air is from oil vs plants and animals. Right now close to 50% of it is oil sourced. Already the oceans are maxed out in its ability to absorb it,, this is causing acidification of the oceans, which is also effecting the reefs. Campion: Yesterday on CBC radio I was listening to a report by Canadian and international scientists on the present sea ice minimum in the Canadian Arctic. Forty years ago the sea ice minimum was equal to the entire area of the ten Canadian provinces. That sea ice was mostly multi year ice up 3m thick or more and permanently locked to the shore line. Today that ice extent is smaller by the area of British Columbia and Alberta and Saskatchewan combined. The thick landlocked sea ice is almost entirely gone.The effect is even more pronounced In the Russian Arctic. At this rate there may be no sea ice left at summer minimum with two decades or less All this will have a profound effect on weather patterns and ocean currents not to mention disastrous effects on the present Arctic ecosystem. Sadly, the global warming models have proven to be largely correct. And yet the deniers persist. Campion: It certainly does. Take the natural heating/cooling cycles and add in the anthropogenic effect of CO2 warming and we have climate change much more rapidly than at any time in planetary history.  AretoNyx: I agree too. However some things are invented in seeking travels to the unknown that are useful and helpful. People can dream but I rather robots explore further and humans just observe. Also I wish people would cherish how special earth is more too. AretoNyx: Guess that is subjective to how people care and some just pretend thinking they are. Humans will human...it is true. kittybobo34: Would much rather see our resources spent on a space station that rotates (artificial gravity) and has manufacturing capacity. | Science Chat Room Similar Conversations |