Why is the climate changing. (Page 198)

kittybobo34: A million metric tons of lithium batteries, is about enough to start recycling. There has been a lot of clever ideas for recovering all the precious metals. Old batteries may soon be worth allot.

ghostgeek: So should we save our old torch batteries instead of recycling them at the local supermarket? I've got quite a few.

kittybobo34: Torch batteries? as in flashlight batteries. Those are recycled already.

ghostgeek: Yeah, I know, but I'm in need of a little cash injection.

kittybobo34: They found some evidence in the North sea and the are between Greenland and Canada that leans more evidence to the idea that Global warming eventually triggers an Ice Age. When so much freshwater mixes in the Atlantic from melting glaciers it disrupts the flow of the global sea current carrying warm water north toward England and Europe, thus triggering a freezing North, excessive snow, and a change in the Albedo of the planet..

ghostgeek: It seems there's a bit of a disagreement:

According to some researchers, the heat trapped in the Earth's atmosphere from the greenhouse effect will offset this cooling -- essentially preventing the Earth from entering another ice age [sources: Science Daily, Cosmos]. Though averting an ice age sounds like good news, the researchers caution that global warming isn't any picnic, either. It could lead to other drastic and unpleasant effects on the planet (think rising sea levels and dwindling global food supplies).

Another school of thought makes the opposite prediction: Global warming might actually lead to another ice age. According to this theory, warming temperatures disrupt ocean currents -- particularly the Gulf Stream, the flow that redistributes warm water from the Gulf of Mexico to northern Europe. As the Gulf Stream makes its deposits of warm water along the coasts of Great Britain and northwestern Europe, it keeps the temperatures there warmer than they would be otherwise.

The worry is that, when Arctic ice melts as a result of global warming, huge amounts of fresh water will pour into the North Atlantic and slow down the Gulf Stream. A study of circulation in the North Atlantic has discovered that there already has been a 30 percent reduction in currents flowing north from the Gulf Stream [source: Pearce]. A slowed Gulf Stream could potentially lead to dramatic cooling in Europe.

[ https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/question780.htm ]

ghostgeek: All you can say for sure is that we can't win.

kittybobo34: We need to develop the equivalent of the home Thermostat for our planet.

GeraldtheGnome: What a load of rubbish. At present it’s not hotter or colder or even warmer or cooler than usual, nor was it warmer or hotter most of the time here in the last year, even when it was it was literally only for a few days. So no matter where it actually is hotter than usual it has not been an indication of global warming, it’s regional warming at the most in some places. Kitty, also has conveniently excluded the cold snap that did happen in her own country recently. She shouldn’t worry about cherry picking by creationists when she does exactly that in regards to this subject. That is religious like.

ghostgeek: Life on Earth has survived vast changes in climate, from a warm period 450 million years ago, when most of the present-day United States was underwater, to the last ice age 20,000 years ago, when New England was buried beneath a mile-thick glacier. Though climate change triggered mass extinctions, life went on.

This is something of mystery. Runaway climate change turned Venus into a scorching hellscape, but Earth never grew so hot or cold that life failed to endure. Even in its most turbulent moments, our tiny planet remained a refuge, a blue-green lifeboat adrift against the vast hostility of space. Why?

Scientists have long speculated on the possibility of a planetary thermostat keeping climate change in check. A new study published in the journal Geochemical Perspectives Letters provides the first-ever evidence of its existence.

“The climate must be relatively constrained. It can’t change too much, otherwise life would go extinct,” according to Philip Pogge von Strandmann, a geochemist at University College London and lead author of the study. “There must be some mechanism that prevents the climate from going completely crazy.”

That mechanism is something called the “weathering thermostat.” Here’s how it works: Carbon dioxide traps heat, keeping the Earth nice and cozy. A dip in CO2 can bring about an ice age. A spike can make the planet sizzle. Earth regulates this greenhouse gas through weathering. Atmospheric carbon dioxide dissolves in rainwater and combines with rocks to form bicarbonate.

“If you a dissolve a rock in water — rain water, river water — that process takes CO2 out of the atmosphere and puts it in the water as bicarbonate. That goes from the rivers into the ocean,” said Pogge von Strandmann. Once in the ocean, the bicarbonate combines with calcium to form limestone. “That locks up the carbon dioxide,” he said.

The global thermostat responds to hot and cold. Heat speeds up chemical reactions, causing rocks and rainwater to draw down carbon dioxide levels more rapidly, thereby cooling the planet faster. Cold temperatures slow down this process, preventing the planet from getting too chilly.

The carbon dioxide trapped in limestone will eventually return to the atmosphere. Limestone will be drawn under the Earth’s crust by the movement of tectonic plates and become part of the Earth’s mantle. Eventually, carbon dioxide will be separated from the limestone and expelled into the sky through volcanic eruptions.

During warm periods, weathering removes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere faster than volcanoes can build it up. This causes the total volume of carbon dioxide to go down, cooling the planet. During cold periods, volcanoes add carbon dioxide faster than it can be removed, warming the planet. For decades, scientists believed this to be the case, but they lacked the evidence.

“It had been assumed for ages. It was in all the climate models, but it had never actually been proven,” said Pogge von Strandmann. “We actually now have some evidence from past climate events that weathering responds to temperature.”

Pogge von Strandmann and his colleagues looked for clues in limestone deposits, which contain lithium isotopes introduced by weathering. The concentration of lithium varies across layers of limestone. More lithium corresponds with warmer periods, when weathering sped up.

[ https://www.popsci.com/earths-climate-regulates-itself/ ]

kittybobo34: ghost,, Your are assuming that there is only the one driver of climate change, when actually there are 3. The Milankovitch cycles are the main driver, CO2 is a moderate driver, ocean currents are another. As continental land moves, it eventually changes the path of the owocean currents which has a huge effect on over all climate. The last time CO2 was increasing at almost todays level was the end of the Permian or the "great dying" major extinction event.

Gerold,, Your comment about climate being the same. WHile warm snaps are often pointed to as proof, its the average world temperature that is the proof. This planet has about 15,000 years of warm between the 95,000 years of cold. Our peak in the warm was at the height of the Roman empire. We are back to that level. This is like enduring the 90f days of August , and then in December its back to those 90f days,, this is not normal.

ghostgeek: Listen to the news and it's hard not to think of CO2 as the big bad wolf.

kittybobo34: I had heard someone say that the oceans are not rising. Just in, up to 2020 the rate was 1mm per year, now in 2022 its 3mm per year. That is a tripling in 2 years. Assuming a constant pace that would put it at 12mm higher by 2030, but its not constant, it keep acclerating. If the acceleration stays constant., 505 mm by 2030 or well over a meter

GeraldtheGnome: Rubbish.

ghostgeek: Global warming is something ordinary people have it in their power to reverse. All that's needed is the total abandonment of our industrial society and a return to the grinding poverty of the preceding agrarian societies. It might take a little while but as deaths mount the temperature will eventually come down. Strangely, not a lot of people seem keen on this very simple stratagem.

GeraldtheGnome: You cannot reverse something that is not even happening right now, what you two have mentioned on the subject is what is claimed. Fear and paranoia has eventually led to dodgy and inaccurate science then to counter what is imagined to be so people have been brainwashed by this science cult arrogantly and ignorantly think that they are god’s and goddesses that can magically make the temperature drop worldwide at the same time. Walt Disney had the movie Fantasia, like that you to believe in a fantasy and your ongoing belief in the myth is like the title of a movie that I love, it’s ‘The never ending story’ that I hope one day isn’t truly a never ending story. So please, I don’t need the Greta Thunberg fan club or anyone milder than her wanting to make myself and everyone else on Earth and in orbit feeling guilty about what we are not guilty of.

There are those who shame those who don’t go along with the far left agenda by telling myself and others that we are climate change deniers, there is nothing that myself and any other realistic people deny.. For a start climates do change and global warming was around in the past, well before you think. So the myth that we are living in the politically correct Anthropecene Era is just another false way of claiming that global warming caused by Humans started x amount of years ago, which by the way the keep altering when they think what when they claim their in reality little myth started, all of which is supposed to indicate that we are now living in the worst part of that Era, an era that they dreamt up.

Even though I know what agrarian and stratagem mean you don’t see most people using it, it doesn’t make anyone smarter or even better off using those words either. In the very distant future there will most likely be a time when distant descendants of every life form, not just Humans, on Earth and in orbit will have to deal with global warming or global cooling or both, but unless technology advances in the future to a point that isn’t even thought of by anyone right now then anyone Human or Alien (if that ever happens) on Earth and in its orbit will be able to do anything about it. If sea levels are actually rising then people such as one of the Princesses own husband wouldn’t have people on the Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia building a very high skyscraper for people to live in near the beach. Don’t mistake storms and beach erosion or liquefaction (which is the ground sinking) for rising sea levels, too many mistake it for that. Some people get confused by scientific jargon and impressed by it too, that is how doomsday scientists have conned people over with their delusional beliefs. Don’t believe the hype, it’s a sequel !

mrsmargaret48: Why capitalism or more specifically neo liberal globalism, in other words waste, exploitation of people and natural resources and its by-product pollution. Globalism is the ideology of both right and (same thing different name) liberal ideology, from the so called liberal democratises such as US and EU to totalitarian dictatorships like China and Russia. The earth as no chance, a Save the Planet sticker on a 4x4 will not do the job, we have another 20 years one MIT scientist predicted.

GeraldtheGnome: Doomsday science is doomsday science no matter what anyone claims. I'm not into this neo and other crap. Climates have changed in places, that is true, the climate everywhere though has not changed in a very, very long time and that is what is ignored. Anyone can wonder why the climate is changing where that person is, to some extent no one really knows, to a slight degree some people have an idea why it has.

ghostgeek: Worry about the emission of greenhouse gases? The people you need to talk to probably won't take kindly to you sticking your nose in their business:

China emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world combined, a new report has claimed.

The research by Rhodium Group says China emitted 27% of the world's greenhouse gases in 2019.

The US was the second-largest emitter at 11% while India was third with 6.6% of emissions, the think tank said.

[ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57018837 ]

GeraldtheGnome: Pollution is a problem, it also should be gas, not gases, the imaginary greenhouse gas problem is like worrying about being sent to Hell by a in theory all loving, all caring and all forgiving god for those that think they are a part of a monotheist religion. Your religious like myth is that there is a greenhouse gas problem and so you worship doomsday scientists, their myth is that they fear what will happen to them if they don’t blindly worship each god and/or goddess that they believe in or if they decide to not worship at all because of the Hell that they believe in. They have no proof of even one god or goddess being present anywhere and that there evil is a Hell anywhere. You have places of worship, far left funded laboratories and other far left funded outlets like news studios, newspapers, magazines and blogs.

Sorry, but even know the far left is a minority and therefore most don’t believe what you have been indoctrinated to believe, most religious people only have one place of worship, some also have a centre of religious dictatorship. Scientific dictatorship is when everyone is meant to believe in a dodgy form of science or be vilified as a denier of that dodgy form of science. So not only are false claims being made by the far left but that of false accusations too. For the far left with all the politically correct stupidity about the science, race, religion with some of them and various forms of rent a cause politics that I have not brought up here but on political forums in the past, some of them being my own, the far left try to make themselves (on one side of the Horseshoe theory) look like they are the best ones to go for. They do that by showing how bad the far right are, in reality both sides are equally stupid as each other.

I’d rather pay attention to anyone of the centre left of the centre right any day. I also hate all politicians, I wish for an anarchic committee, a leaderless group of politicians that only do what the bulk of the general public wants when the majority is fair or a true democracy, something that is not around away from Micronations.. To know what that last bit is about look at Wikipedia. So I won’t take what the far left or far right claim is true when they are being extreme because they don’t look at certain subjects properly. They are like cults. You are a part of a science cult. Use some more spaces and the United States is a country as is India, people emit pollution, not imaginary gas problems and yes there is an air pollution problem caused in both of those countries. One example is that people in one Indian city were unable to see The Himalayas for 35 years due to smog. China also didn’t emit anything, people within China brought about air pollution, during the Olympics they came up with various ideas to wipe out the smog at that time. Just like creationists you have looked solely for confirmation bias. Pollution is a realistic problem, billions of dollars (or pounds) have so far been wasted on imaginary problems.

The fearful, paranoid and unrealistic people in Egypt from various countries are involved in a money wasting wank session.

kittybobo34: Seems the oil companies have been successful at posting propaganda that skews the statistics. They have a lot to lose if the nation quits using oil for transport.

GeraldtheGnome: Well, those of at least if not all oil companies rather than the oil companies that I phrase another way most likely do that or are certainly doing that. One thing that I am in agreement with you about is that it would be good that oil and fuel become things that each vehicle could do without. Extortion with fuel companies by the OPEC dictatorship and that of every politician of every side that either raises the cost of fuel or does nothing about countering the rise (and lame excuses for) prices of fuel right now disgust me. I live in a country where all oil and fuel can be made in Australia and yes my dad worked at a former oil refinery so there should be no oil and fuel coming from overseas to here. Even now the oil brought to Australia is not from where Russians and Ukrainians get theirs. This means that very lame excuses by a small group of people are dictating what the price is around the world.

The sooner there is a better alternative to electric vehicles and conventional vehicles the better. Both forms of vehicles are not good environmentally. A nation is not a person and a part of the solution can be brought about by the politicians that I hate. Here despite the current government’s superficial, misleading and unrealistic concern for the environment the party, just like that of the party who they took the power away from are pretending to do everything right for most people. In reality they don’t really want to do anything about it, nor does the Queensland State Premier because they make a fortune out of higher fuel prices. The higher it is the better it is for them as they waste money, that’s why subsidies on fuel are a thing of the past, lowering the price is not on, why the unfair goods and services tax is on it as well as fuel excise tax. I must admit that I don’t really know what the word excise means. Meanwhile the most extreme environmentalists have tried and maybe at least once successfully glued themselves to and/or sabotage artwork worldwide. How and why do any of them think that will get new people to their way of thinking ?

It happened in Canberra, The Australian Capital Territory the other day and not that long before it in Melbourne, Victoria. None of those pieces of art are about any environmental beliefs that the scum protestors believe in. I love art so I find it very offensive.

ghostgeek: Governments love to ban things, so why has no government banned the use of oil?

kittybobo34: lol, Civilization runs on oil. I don't think Biden or anyone realized the mess we would run into restarting the economy , when the oil companies had no plans to hire and reopen wells. Then throw the Russian/Ukraine war into it, and you have global inflation.. The quicker we get more green sources of power the better.

mrsmargaret48: ghost really come on, ban oil. Oil should be replaced with green power but you cant just ban oil. The UK had a politician who used to ride a bike until the cameras were off him, then he got into his chauffeur driven car. Hypocrisy thats the problem and all the profits oil companies make.