Do Creationist Shills On Wireclub Get Paid To Sow Doubt About Evolution? (Page 2)
chronology: It is all about beginnings. Back in the day before air travel, New York City was the 'Gateway of America' . Americans who had lived in New York for generations had to listen to endless arguments among 'ethnics' regarding their old home counties. 'Hunkies' from Eastern Europe would argue about which country their city should be in, Irishmen would argue about their freedom from Britain, refugees from Eastern Europe would complain about the 'Bolshevicks' . For long suffering New Yorkers, the only way to begin to understand the arguments was to ask about 'just what started all this arguing among you Guys' . New Yorkers would often then be told about some incident in history that saw the story tellers nationality ripped off.
It is the same with the validity of Genesis. Evolution takes sovereignty from God over the universe and hands it to germs, bugs and animals.
As for 'why' creationists argue about the subject, it is the 'Americans have the right to make an informed decision about subject' view.
Angry Beaver: They base their belief on "the truth" and tell us we are basing our understanding on "lies and assumptions" despite there being tomes of research which back up the assertions. Yet their "truth" is based on a 2000 yr old 100th hand book written by "eyewitnesses" hundreds of years after the alleged events, they are actually clinging to a HOPE that they are right! Whereas we use our understanding to actually learn about the world and not hope for eternal salvation when we die, you can have your messiah, we aren't convinced, until you offer up a shred of actual evidence..
Please don't quote bible passages as "evidence"
(Edited by Angry Beaver)
fidra2: What a load of bollocks. The so called Christians referred to are ignorant stupid fundamentalist nuts who belong to strange small sects most frequently found in the USA.
Main stream Christians. Have no problem with evolution
theHating: i like these guys, and so does wireclub. idk maybe they are too busy with something else to moderate the science forums
theHating: the shills probably dont get money, im just high-talkin'.
i think the best way is to tell them they are wrong, but understand that they are wrong for specific reasons that aren't necessarily related to how much they might know, empirically speaking.
just reduce them to what they are, denialists. observe what kinds of logical fallacies they use and point them out. they dont deserve to claim religion is scientific, they dont deserve to call science a religion until they can demonstrate in someother platform that they know what science even is and why it is different than religion.
same goes for ideologues of any kind.
just because someone has a claim against the consensus, doesnt mean it is politically or religiously driven, but we are wise enough by now to know that. these people project their religiosity onto us, saying atheism is a religion, science is a religion -- all these things they do are qualities of people that suffer from serious mental conditions. some can cope in society, and some cant. those that cant bring reality into question with their own internalized understanding end up doing criminal things.
essentially, point out how their line of thinking is wrong, and when they show their denial, tell them their thinking is no different than a burglar's justification for breaking and entering, or a rapists justification for manipulating his victim's emotions.
they want to get you to react to the thought of being lied to by the people you trust (scientists or politicians, especially since americans trust politicians over any one, even the pope) so that you hopefully make that reactionary impulse choice to believe everything they say next.
tell them their logic comes straight out of a comic strip and they should probably learn how to discern reality from imaginary.
(Edited by theHating)
theHating: denial is in the psychological behavior process of everything criminal, whether insider trading, or murder, or theft, or rape, denial is at the pinnacle of their justification process they use to "talk" themselves into doing or believing what ever they please in the absence of objective identity or boundary
theHating: its how they dissolve themselves into immoral acts and refuse any accountability for them.
theHating: a phrase comes to mind, good advice to give these guys.
"there is a time to speak, and there is a time to listen. your's is to shut up and listen"
chris12344: @theHating have you ever actually done an investigation into the theory of evolution? its not as solid as you think I mean you can start coming up with all sorts of high minded arguments based on your crappy suppositions islam does it all the time...they talk about the singularity of the word elohim in the shima and bring up the council of nicea but they ignore the basic things like the life of Muhamad and his general ungodliness...if you go to the source material then you will find out muhamud and evolution are both equally ridiculous for many of the same reasons...don't go to ritchard dawkins to learn about why evolution is true go to the text books and official sources and prove it
kittybobo34: Chris,, It's been proved to a reasonable level. No other theory or idea fits all the facts as we find them. There is evidence of 5 major die offs or extinctions, and each time a totally different version of life takes over and these newer versions are represented in characteristics by certain species before the die offs
There is a 6th major die off in progress right now, and humans are responsible for this one..
Angry Beaver: Found this great piece:
Open Letter to Creationists
Posted on 15-May-2012 | 42 Comments
If you’re a creationist we’re talking to you. Whether you’re a young earth creationist, an old-earth creationist, or one of those sneaky intelligent design types — this is for every one of you.
Well, not quite. There are two groups to whom we’re not speaking. One is the sincere creationists who don’t try to impose their views on anyone outside of their own denominations. We have no quarrel with you. Then there are the genuine imbeciles who mindlessly follow their leaders in their efforts to impose creationism on everyone else. It’s a waste of time talking to you so we won’t — except for a few words at the end of this letter.
All the rest of you, listen up. Pay attention, because your Curmudgeon understands you far better than you understand yourselves.
First, it’s time you recognized that you’re not fooling anyone. Everyone knows that no matter how “scientific” you try to appear, and no matter how much you insist that you want “good” science taught “properly” in the public schools, what you’re promoting is religion. Your supporters certainly know it. They’re not following you because of their concern for science. They don’t know any science and they don’t want to know it. Religion is what they care about, and it’s the only reason they pay attention to you.
Those who oppose you will never be persuaded that you’re got science on your side — because you don’t and it’s obvious that you don’t. Everybody knows what’s going on — everybody! — so stop wasting your time masquerading as scientists. It’s not only stupid, it’s dishonest and contemptible. In your quiet, private moments you know this.
Second, since your principal concern is religion — specifically, slipping religion back into the public schools — you should honestly say so and work to straightforwardly promote your goal. It’s not going to happen if you waste your time nit-picking fossils, babbling about the “controversy” and the alleged “weaknesses” of evolution, complaining how “big science” is unfairly discriminating against you, or claiming that you’ve got evidence for your magic designer. That’s all a nonsensical waste of time. You know it and we know it.
Third, recognize that persuading a few moronic state legislatures to pass “academic freedom” bills isn’t going to get the job done, and you know that too. You need a constitutional amendment to get your stuff into the public schools. Nothing else will do, so get busy and promote it. Yes, it’s an almost insurmountable challenge, but it isn’t impossible. We’re not going to tell you how your amendment should be worded, because we’re not interested in helping you. You’ll figure it out.
Until you succeed at amending the Constitution, you won’t succeed at anything — except making a marginal living by begging for contributions and selling your shabby books and DVDs. Yes, you’ll persuade a few morons that you have scientific evidence for Noah’s flood or that DNA is some kind of mystical magic, but that sort of thing will never get you where you want to go, so quit fooling around and start promoting your amendment. You may or may not succeed, but at least you’ll be out of the closet and facing the world honestly. Wouldn’t you really prefer that to the shady way you conduct yourselves now?
We understand that some of you have another goal — you want to outlaw science altogether and make the whole world over into your image. That’s not going to happen. You’d literally have to kill a lot of people — and lock up many more. Despite your twisted fantasies you don’t have the guts for that. Continue dreaming about it if you like, but give it up as a goal. The best you can do is to pass your amendment and reconquer the public schools. There’s a lot of you, and if you all team up together you may actually have a chance.
So put aside your petty squabbles about the age of the earth and your silly refusal to name the intelligent designer. Admit — to yourselves and to the rest of the world — that you’re all a bunch of unthinking, fanatical creationists. Join together to promote an amendment to allow religion — your religion, of course — to be openly promoted in the public schools. That’s what you want, so stop pretending otherwise.
We certainly hope you fail, but the public schools are so bad anyway that your success won’t change things very much — indeed, it just might hasten the end of public schools altogether, which would be no loss. Private schools — yours and those which you can’t control — will do a better job than we’re doing now. They can’t do worse, and the cost will be a lot less. So bring it on!
In closing, we’d like to say something to the idiots who have faith in their leaders’ lies about science. You people … well, there’s no diplomatic way to say this so we’ll say it straight out: You really don’t matter. You never did and you never will. What we’ve said here is addressed to the charlatans who have been making a living off of you. When they change tactics and promote their amendment, you’ll follow them. You don’t have anywhere else to go, so just go along and don’t worry about it. You’re their cannon-fodder and that’s all you’ll ever be. But you’re happy. That’s what matters, right?
Creationists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your minds!
/s/ The Curmudgeon
Copyright © 2012. The Sensuous Curmudgeon. All rights reserved.
chronology: Sorry Angry but your post proves nothing. There is little doubt as to some events in History. Around 50000 years ago there was a major reconstruction of the earths surface after a cataclysmic destruction even some time in the distant past, possibly hundreds of thousands of years ago. Curiously, many evolutionists agree with the 50000 year age of modern man.
Around 12000 years ago there was a major 'patch up' job on plant and animal life. If people read the Bible properly they would read that the earth, and presumably space, already existed long before Adam, but the Bible says nothing of this state o earth, but the suggestion is it was ruled over by Satan, who possibly held control of a vast commecial and political Empire during that period. According to the Book of Ezekiel Satan suffered some kind of mental break down that dragged his entire Empire down.
I would like to assert that we have 'facts' for all these claims, but we do not. Like the theory of evolution we can only 'assume' this is what happened.
I would also like to claim this 'proves' that God is real, but the events of the distant past could just as well have been those initiated by a highly advanced Ancient Race, possibly 'Off World' as Eric Von Dinakin has proposed since the 1960s. But personally I go along with the Biblical explanation. Sure humans, who are only a few thousand years civilised have done amazing things, Americans will be celebrating the Moon landing soon, but Terra Forming life on a planet seems quite a theory. So God is the only explanation left.
kittybobo34: Chrono,, Not sure where you are getting your numbers. 12,000 years ago was the end of the ice age. Ocean levels went up 300-400 ft, Drowning most early civilizations, forcing them to high ground to restart. Probably the source of most of our flooding stories.
We have found traces of early human villages as far as 100,000 years ago in Africa. Neanderthal man had already been in Europe/middle east/asia for 500,000 years, so not sure where your 50,000 year date came from.
PS,, Eric Von Daniken was caught forging his data and proof. He is a proven liar. All for the magic dollar.
chronology: Kitty with all respect to you, I have no idea where you get your dates from, or the confidence you have in them.
kittybobo34: Chrono,, Collage, we had some anthropologists give a seminar on a find they had in Africa, in a cave near the Cape Town, that included the first fish hooks and nets (something that only humans have ever done). With the animal and plant remains were dated at 100,000 years + - 5000. Since then I understand other finds place humans on the south east coast of africa nearly as far back as 150,000. This may actually be where our type of humans got their start.
Interesting too, Geneticists have said there is a bottle neck in the human genome that puts us down to just a few hundred individuals at roughly 150,000 years as well.
kittybobo34: News update, some anthropologists have found two hominid skulls in the middle east near africa dating 200,000 years. One was Neanderthal the other appeared to be modern human. This could push the dates for everything even farther back... (that would have put them in the warm period before the last ice age)