Creationism is a mental illness (Page 221)

Nicotina: I guess the bible kinda makes sense if you think all fairy tails are literal true.
That's one huge bean stalk.

Corwin: Another note on the "Eden" conundrum and anthropomorphology.
On a more fundamental primitive level, we have the "Fight or Flight" response.

Every single animal on the planet, whether predator or prey, possesses this. And it's hard-wired right into the most primitive instinctive part of our brains -- the amygdala, sometimes referred to as our "reptile" brain. It takes over when there's no time to "reason", and our fate will be determined in a split-second, and immediate instinctive action is necessary to our survival.

When we study the brains of animals, from the most primitive to the more highly evolved, we see that the brain is never "reinvented", but rather new layers of higher-functioning brain is overlain surrounding the more primitive parts... so, that reptile brain of our most primitive ancestors is still in there, doing the same job it always did. Reptiles have ONLY that part.
Our higher reasoning and "sense of self-awareness" resides in the Frontal Cortex, the most "evolved" part of our brain. Only mammals and birds possess this cortex, most pronounced in the primates, with humans possessing the largest Frontal Cortex of all primates.

Emotions like "fear" or "anger" stem from the Amygdala, and it takes a powerful act of "will" from our Frontal-Cortex to countermand the instinctive orders given to us by the Amygdala. What we call "courage" is not the "lack of fear"... only a fool is fearless... courage is about willfully "overcoming" fear as our higher reasoning would dictate as a necessary act, either for our own benefit, or the benefit of others or the "greater good".


So... my point being... we're back to those two choices... were we "designed" this way, or did we "evolve" this way? The "Fight or Flight" response raises some questions in that regard.
The evolutionary model explains this rather neatly... but if we were intentionally "designed" this way, then to embrace the Biblical explanation leaves us with no choice but to accept that God had intended for us to survive "outside of Eden" all along. Like Ghostgeek suggested -- we were "set up".

Was God a "practical joker" and we're still suffering His "punchline" on that one? I can't accept that. Did God intend us to suffer? Is God "sadistic"?
I refuse to accept that as well.

From the scientific standpoint, the universe is a hostile place. It's not like the universe "has it out for us", it's just the way the universe is. It doesn't hate us, nor does it love us, the laws merely allow for our existence to have happened. A relatively "quiet" corner of the Cosmos where it "could" happen. And here we are... contemplating what it's all about, and wondering why we're here. It's the question "why" that really sends us for a loop, and makes us contemplate "God".


I accept the possibility that some kind of "supreme being" may be behind all of this, but I doubt that this being would be the God of Abraham, or ANY of the other thousand Gods that man has envisioned. I don't think our comparatively primitive minds could even begin to grasp what such a being would truly be. Like a bacterium trying to perceive a human mind.

We envision a "God" or "Gods" because we're a curious species, and we have far more questions than answers. Long ago we had no answers at all. But we had an inherent capacity to begin to find those answers. The "Age of Reason" was when we truly began to look for them, to reexamine ancient beliefs despite the threat of being burned at the stake for even asking certain questions.

Science gives us answers... and more questions... and of course those answers are offensive to some when they contradict some ancient sacred text or another. I fully understand that. But I don't think Science should have to apologize for that. For the first time in human existence we're reading from the REAL "book"... the earth beneath our feet, and the heavens up above... peeling back layers and having a better understanding of what we're looking at. Peeking into the very heart of matter itself, and gazing into the farthest depths of the Cosmos, and therefor the most distant past.

Science isn't "at war" with religion or "God", and it's not trying to prove His nonexistence... it's merely attempting to paint a more accurate picture of how everything works, and how everything happened, and make predictions of the future. If God speaks to anybody, He certainly speaks to the scientists and physicists, but in a different way than merely adhering to ancient texts.
Science is about asking the right questions... and not being afraid of the answers we might find, even when they shatter previous models or beliefs.

ghostgeek: God knows everything, therefore there was no need to torture Job to know he would remain faithful to God.

ghostgeek: Or are we to presume that God didn't know how Job would behave when tested to the limit? That He isn't omniscient?

Corwin: I always saw the Job story as an example of how man "personifies" God with human attributes.

To me, it seemed like a display of "vanity", or even "pride".
Allowing one of His most devout followers to suffer to the extreme, JUST to "prove a point" to Satan?? That's reprehensible behavior for a supreme being in my opinion, and far too "human".

Rather than God succumbing to Satan's taunts and allowing Job to be tormented, He could have just said, "Screw you, Satan. Go stuff your head in a pig, you jerk."
But no... God fell for it.

Not to mention, there MUST have already been existing examples of people who lived wretched lives and still loved God, and God could have just pointed out a few to Satan to make His point.

That story leaves me with the impression of a Satan who just "trolled" God, and had the last laugh... like Satan was all, "Okay, okay, God. I guess you were right."...
... and under his breath, "Sucker."

zeffur: re: "To me, it seemed like a display of "vanity", or even "pride".
Allowing one of His most devout followers to suffer to the extreme, JUST to "prove a point" to Satan?? That's reprehensible behavior for a supreme being in my opinion, and far too "human"."

Job definitely overstated his position & made a few errors, but mankind cannot grasp the reasoning & justification of God. We are too inferior. While I too don't like that Job experienced such suffering, I think God allowed it to teach not just satan a lesson, but to impart to future generations that the devil will not change even when proven WRONG. And the reason is that satan is the father of all lies & deceptions & He hates God because God exceeds his egotistical delusion of himself in every way. Thus he's an immortal petulant, incorrigible, & evil creation that will always be so..

re: "Rather than God succumbing to Satan's taunts and allowing Job to be tormented, He could have just said, "Screw you, Satan. Go stuff your head in a pig, you jerk."
But no... God fell for it."

God didn't fall for it--He used it for Good--which is what He often does. (see above for my rationale).

TheloniousSphereMonk: Many religious people that experience hardship don't blame God. Most jews who lived through the holocaust never cursed their God because of it.

Job was not that exceptional.

Wonder why Satan thought his bet was so secure.

zeffur: Because he's like atheists---delusional.

Corwin: That was my point, that Satan never intended to "win" that bet... it was a losing bet... but a nice excuse to "bust God's balls" and coerce Him to allow a beloved and prosperous follower to be ravaged.

This is one of the reasons why I don't "buy into" these stories... these tales are too "human".

They sound like stories authored by humans describing human behavior... NOT describing the behavior of "supreme beings". I'll stress again that Zeff often talks about how we cannot know the minds of these beings... I doubt that they would be "so" human.

This "man made in God's image" nonsense... I think THAT is arrogance.
We're just monkeys that only recently climbed down out of the trees and are getting a handle on things... an advanced monkey... the God I envision is NOT a "super-advanced" monkey.
God is NOT a monkey... WE are monkeys... deny it all day long, but that's all we are.

God isn't an advanced monkey... and we are not sheep.
The Bible has got it all wrong.

Nobody has written a book that describes the God that I envision... perhaps I should start my own religion... but I don't want to do that.


All I can say is this... we should love one another... our motivation shouldn't be hate nor personal gain... we're all in this together.
To love and not just "accept" our differences, but "embrace" those differences.

We need to learn to get along. Our survival depends on it.

AretoNyx: True ...such a god loves torture of others it seems and especially for a gamble.

TheloniousSphereMonk: re: "mankind cannot grasp the reasoning & justification of God. We are too inferior...I think God allowed it to teach not just satan a lesson, but to impart to future generations that the devil will not change even when proven WRONG...."

Can you see the irony of combining these two statements in the same paragraph???

AretoNyx: God knows all , is everywhere, and so... Several times did the same thing over and over because to show " the devil" ...but had to do so several times with torturing others one way or another including flooding little kids to death. Good lesson in repetitiveness...sure. Quit blaming devils and any god for humans being planned to be human and devils planned to be a devil by such deity know it all. Not like that changes anything for better what ever excuses or extremism. Just saying.

AretoNyx: Corwin I bet you would have a better God and religion but I do not think many people would have sense enough to not have superiority complex or cult like tendencies with interpretation from such. Ah humans are complex about all that but we can hope majority at least gets along.

zeffur: re: "That was my point, that Satan never intended to "win" that bet... it was a losing bet... but a nice excuse to "bust God's balls" and coerce Him to allow a beloved and prosperous follower to be ravaged."

Given that God is omniscient, it isn't possible for satan to trick God.
God only allowed it for the lesson that can be learned about satan & mankind's relationship & relevance to Almighty God.

The whole monkey bit is untrue as nature has no intelligence to originate life/dna & the hosts that it depends on from non life. There is also no proof or compelling/convincing unbiased evidence that evolution has ever occurred. Denying God's existence & rejecting God's morality & believing in the myth/fairy tale of evolution does not substantiate that it is true or that it has ever occurred.

People will always be different & not get along with everyone. You don't have to accept & get along with everyone. There are people that are bad, evil, & crazy & most people don't want anything to do with them--which is very reasonable, imo.

Here's a perfect example of insanity: "AretoNyx: True ...such a god loves torture of others it seems and especially for a gamble." No one sane, honest, or rational thinks such rubbish is true...

Nicotina: Awwwww... you’re so cute zeff, with your constant need to be on your knees worshipping a stronger man than you are. Cute!

zeffur: I suppose given that you are a heathen female you think being an expert in that position qualifies you to make such an off color joke, huh?

AretoNyx: Hell forever for those of the Noah flood (including kids) based on the bible for all sins. At least the bible tells me so if going word for word.
Of course other stories too provide bears eating children because they teased an old man. So many stories just saying.

AretoNyx:
Alternate version for kids.

zeffur: The Bible is a better read than the myth/fairy tale of evolution. Evolution isn't at all believable, unless you are a delusional atheist or other nitwit...

AretoNyx: Ah better to read about kids being mauled by bears. Got it and thanks for that helpful input. 😂

kittybobo34: I would have defined the bible as myth/fairy tale.

ghostgeek: The Bible is a deliberate attempt to deceive the gullible by very intelligent men.

BelgianStrider: that book is made up of all sort of imagined stories of bronze aged nomadic tribes of shepherds without any "quite valid" scientifical knowledge

zeffur: re: "kittybobo34: I would have defined the bible as myth/fairy tale."

Of course you would, because you've long since abandoned the good sense that God initially gave to you...

zeffur: re: "gg: The Bible is a deliberate attempt to deceive the gullible by very intelligent men."

The Bible is THE DOCUMENT that helps mankind avoid the wiles of evil men such as atheists & other deceivers & bad people.