Something from Nothing, our Universe? (Page 5)

StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Don't bother. It was written by this guy:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: So.........
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: He's a fundamentalist Christian.

He has no academic background in any of the scientific disciplines his article purports to draw from, such as cosmology, astrophysics, particle physics, quantum physics, abstract mathematics, etc.

He has no scientific background or expertise. His article was written to further a religious point of view.
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: Religion is hogwash. My point was to dispute the big bang theory as much as possible not to discredit it. If that says anything let you be the judge.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: You just discredited your own argument.
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: You know I'm talking about this thread right? I was disputing this topic.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: A very simple question, just for clarity:

Do you ...

A. agree

B. disagree

... with the point made by Henry Morris in his article?
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: I don't agree with him using this as an arguement to prove his religious point of view. But its a decent arguement to disprove the big bang theory. So I can't give a direct answer to your question because your not giving a (C) or even a (D) answers. And the answer I just gave you could have been a (C) or a (D) answer.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Morris isn't using the argument to "prove his religious point of view." Nowhere in his article is there any mention of God, Jesus, creationism, or religion.

I said that the article "was written to further a religious point of view" because I know where the article originated: a fundamentalist Christian creationist website.

Morris is using the standard creationist strategy. It's not to prove a religious standpoint. It's to argue against a scientific standpoint.

But Morris' GOAL is to further his religion - by trying to weaken the science that contradicts it. He does this DISHONESTLY by trying to make a disconnect between his TACTICS (his article) and his STRATEGY (furthering his religion).

This is what creationists do. They are DISHONEST.

In your case, his strategy worked.

He SUCKERED you, and even got you to help him in his goal of furthering his religion, though you didn't realize how you were being worked by him.

That was his goal.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: In fact, to illustrate just how dishonest these people are, there is a website that contains ONLY the article, without any mention of who wrote it - Henry Morris - or what organizations he is a part of. That website took the article from the creationist website, where it is fully credited.

You can find both of these websites easily simply by Googling the first sentence of the article.
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: Its not about suckering anyone. If he wasn't religious would that still mean he's suckering anyone? because by your logic he's only suckering in anyone because of his religious views.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: "by your logic he's only suckering in anyone because of his religious views."

Exactly. That is the guy's motive.

That essay was written for the express purpose of suckering in the gullible. It's what they do.

As far as the validity of his (and your) premise, that the Big Bang didn't happen, the vast majority of astrophysicists, astronomers, mathmeticians, etc. are lined up against you. Big Bang is the best explanation going. Evidence seems to conform to it much better than other explanations.

As far as the strangeness of the notion that "something comes from nothing," it's true that it's a bizarre concept. But the evidence points to that as being the best explanation we have.

It kind of reminds me of Einstein's claim that time itself is elastic, stretchy, that time in one place can run faster or slower than time elsewhere. It's hard to imagine it. But again, evidence points to that as being the way things actually are.

Those things just happen to be very, very strange.
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: Good point, not only that but the Einstein example was a good piont. But you can't leave out the possibility of any of it being remotely true.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Okay, I won't leave that out. Let me state it now:

It's true. Strange, but true. Our universe - apparently something from nothing.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Pokerman, on page 8 of this thread, you made these four statements:

“I simply have said God has always existed, and created the universe! If God never existed, then neither do we!”

“God was before, he made the universe therefore there was a something, and that something was only him, and not a nothing.”

“Meaning God was before there was anything else, he has always existed, hes been around before time existed, hes infinite that explains it all.”

“Thats the thing nothing created God! He is infinite!”

But on page 11, you said:

“Religion is hogwash.”

How do you reconcile that?
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Oh, here's another one:

In this thread ...

http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=962755&ParentId=655863

... you said: "I believe in God and Jesus Christ too."

How does that reconcile with your statement "Religion is hogwash"?
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: I recall those statements thanks to Lipton cambell I have changed my philosophical way of thinking. Those were statements made a long time ago.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Okay. That's a reasonable response.

May I ask why you gave up on religion?
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: Too many flaws. Also I could never make myself believe in god and Jesus. Which is why I assume religion is about getting your mind to believe in something that doesn't logically make sense, but it doesn't matter to people because believing that a god will take care of you is more comforting to a person than logical thinking is. So is logical thinking more comfortable or is it something else?
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FSANCHO
FSANCHO: I think that this issue is very simple of answering. There aren't effect without cause, said the scientific dictum, so you can look for everything that the human don't make and the reason will answer you one superior intelligence started the Universe.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: No, that's not "reason" giving that answer. More than likely, it's conditioning.
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Juba_The_Sniper
Juba_The_Sniper: 'one superior intelligence started the Universe'

and who or what created this 'super intelligence' and WHY did it create the universe?
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XFixYourBrainX
XFixYourBrainX: The subject of history brings notion with repetitiveness towards society seeking answers for questions. Societal groups feel a desire to give the answers even if they may not be logical, it may be an answer. Its a theory, at best. Superabsurdity is any answer given to a inadequate question.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Umm ...

... what ?!?!?
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FSANCHO
FSANCHO: You are able to think, all right? If you don't wanna say that the nothingness make something, then someone make your able to think, who can do it? Obviously I don't know who , why or how, but I believe that a superior being created it.
Don't ask why or who. You already thought that our intelligence can't understand a lot of phenomena. So actually, I feel I can't answer everything, and it is why I feel that exist something bigger than our fragile intelligence.
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