was Jesus invented?

HydroMan: was Jesus invented?

HydroMan: Jesus: Fact or Myth? Part 6

Introduction

Despite the historical evidence, there are some who believe Jesus did not exist, and that everything written about Him in the Bible was made up (the NT authors invented Jesus and the Christian faith). Let’s say for argument sake that Jesus did not exist. If the NT authors invented Jesus, then the all-important question needs to be asked; why would they invent Jesus—what did they have to gain from inventing Jesus and the Christian faith?

Paul, author of several NT Epistles:

* Paul was a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25-26,28) and a Jewish Pharisee (Acts 23:6). This placed him is position of power in the Roman Empire and Jewish faith (he had the luxury, protection and privileges of a Roman, while also having the esteem and respect of a Pharisee). This means that Paul was in the ‘good books’ of both Jews and Romans ((he had nothing to lose, and had more power and reputation than most Jews and Romans). So by creating a new religion, Paul would become an enemy to both Rome and the Jews, thus losing his power and reputation (teach heresy according to the Jewish faith, and create/worship a God that was above the Roman emperor). In fact, Paul tells us that he endured five floggings, three beatings, three shipwrecks, a stoning, poverty, and years of ridicule (2 Corinthians 11:24-27). In other words, Paul had no motive to lie or invent Jesus and start a new religion (he had nothing to gain, and everything to lose) In fact, before his conversion, Paul persecuted the Church (an enemy of Christ because he persecuted His followers; 1 Corinthians 15:9). This also suggests that Paul did not invent Jesus and Christianity, as followers of Jesus and the Christian faith already existed and were being persecuted by him.

* The Jews were not expecting the Messiah to be God and die die/resurrect from the dead (the crucifixion of Christ was regarded by the Jews as scandalous; 1 Corinthians 1:21-23). So it makes little sense for Paul (a Jew) to invent a Messiah that claims to be God and dies die/resurrects from the dead (not expecting the Messiah to be killed/put to death, hence not expecting the Messiah to resurrect from death). In other words, if you are going to invent a false messiah, then you would make sure that you create a story that reflects the ideals and desires of the Jews (a Messiah that claims to be God and dies/ die/resurrects from the dead is not something a Jew would invent because it is not what they were expecting) For example, there is no reason to believe Paul (a Jew) would intentionally distort passages from the Hebrew Bible by using them as prophecies and references to the Messiah (use passages as evidence that Jesus was God and Messiah when the Jews did not believe the Bible prophesises the Messiah as God/interpret the passages differently). Instead, Paul would take passages that reflect the ideals and desires of the Jews.

* The Laws of the Jewish faith prevented the Jews from worshipping and idolizing pagan gods and practices (it was a violation of Jewish Law to worship false gods). In fact, the Jews were severely punished when they worshipped idols and false gods (exile, capital punishment). So for Paul to invent a god (and lead people into worshipping a false god-messiah) would violate Jewish Laws and beliefs/would result in severe punishment/death (Paul has nothing to gain by inventing a false god and risking death). To put it another way, it is bad enough that many Jews worshipped false gods. It would have been far worse if the Jews (such as Paul) invented a false god (the God-Man Jesus) and then try to pass Him off as the true God Yahweh

* Early Church leaders testify that Paul was beheaded in Rome when Nero was emperor. What this means is, if Paul invented Jesus, then it means that he died for a lie. There is no sense in this. Paul had nothing to gain. A sane person may be willing to die for something they believe to be true, but no one would die for something they lied about. Think of it this way, a man named Paul goes around spreading a lie that a man named Jesus died and resurrected from the dead. He convinces many people to go along with the lie. Later, the government arrests, imprisons, tortures Paul, and tells him they are going to execute him. Do you think Paul would willingly die, or do you think he would come clean and admit that he made the whole thing up – knowing that his lie is not worth dying for? As we can see, it is highly unlikely that Paul invented Jesus

Luke, author of the Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles:

* Luke was a doctor (Colossians 4:14) and a Gentile (Paul draws a distinction between Luke and his other colleagues “of the circumcision,” meaning the Jews; Colossians 4:11). As a Gentile, Luke never practiced the Jewish customs and Laws (no affiliation with the Jewish faith). Therefore, it is hard to imagine that Luke would invent a new religion that stemed from the Jewish faith, that is, he had nothing to gain from inventing a religion that came from an already existing religion he never practiced (create a religion from an already existing religion that never even practiced or was part of). It also makes it more difficult to convince the Jews that what Luke said is true (hard to believe the Jews will accept the writings of a Gentile regarding their Messiah)

* As a doctor, Luke held a profession that was highly respected. It is also a profession that requires trust and evidence. Therefore, it is hard to imagine that Luke would invent stories about demons, miracles and resurrections (things that aren’t supported by science or medicine) – as it would jeopardize his medical career. For example, Luke had nothing to gain by creating stories about a virgin birth or a Man resurrecting from the dead – as such things have no place in science and medicine. In other words, no one can argue that Luke wrote about a virgin birth for his own personal agenda, ambitions or to gain favor in the medical community.

Matthew, author of the Gospel of Matthew:

* Matthew was a Jew and tax collector. Tax collectors were hated by the Jews and classed with sinners (Matthew 9:10-11) because they worked for the enemy (Rome) and would take more tax than what was required and keep for themselves. Therefore, it is hard to imagine a Jewish tax collector inventing a story about a Man that tells people to give their money to the poor, and how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God (Matthew would have been classed as a rich person, so he has nothing to gain by writing a story that appeals to the poor. And Matthew would have been hated by his fellow Jews because he was a tax collector). In other words, Matthew’s occupation as a tax collector does not correspond to the character or integrity of someone that would invent a story that tells people to give money to the poor.

* The Jews were not expecting the Messiah to be God and die/resurrect from the dead. So it makes little sense for Matthew (a Jew) to invent a Messiah that claims to be God and dies/resurrects from the dead (not expecting the Messiah to be killed/put to death, hence not expecting the Messiah to resurrect from death). In other words, if you are going to invent a false messiah, then you would make sure that you create a story that reflects the ideals and desires of the Jews (a Messiah that claims to be God and dies die/resurrects from the dead is not something a Jew would invent because it is not what they were expecting) For example, there is no reason to believe Matthew (a Jew) would intentionally distort passages from the Hebrew Bible by using them as prophecies and references to the Messiah (use passages as evidence that Jesus was God and Messiah when the Jews did not believe the Bible prophesises the Messiah as God/interpret the passages differently). Instead, Matthew would take passages that reflect the ideals and desires of the Jews.

* The Laws of the Jewish faith prevented the Jews from worshipping and idolizing pagan gods and practices (it was a violation of Jewish Law to worship false gods). In fact, the Jews were severely punished when they worshipped idols and false gods (exile, capital punishment). So for Matthew to invent a god (and lead people into worshipping a false god-messiah) would violate Jewish Laws and beliefs/would result in severe punishment/death (Matthew has nothing to gain by inventing a false god and risking death). To put it another way, it is bad enough that many Jews worshipped false gods. It would have been far worse if the Jews (such as Matthew) invented a false god (the God-Man Jesus) and then try to pass Him off as the true God Yahweh

Other Points to Consider

Many of the beliefs, teachings, lifestyle and practices of Jesus do not reflect the teachings and customs of the Jews or what the Jews were expecting from the Messiah. Consider the following;

* Jesus was born in a manger (feeding trough) at night in the city of Bethlehem—wrapped in cloths and witnessed by shepherds (Luke 2:7-15). This does not reflect the Jewish ideals of the Messiah. This is because the Jews were expecting the Messiah to be a King, and kings are not born in diseased-filled troughs in the cold night surrounded by strangers in a small town with no protection—vulnerable to being kidnapped or killed. Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would create a Messiah that is born in the safety of a palace surrounded by rich and powerful people and protected by guards—not a trough in the middle of nowhere where he is vulnerable to being kidnapped or killed and exposed to disease.

* After Jesus was born, Mary offered a pair of turtledoves or two pigeons (Luke 2:24). According to the Law, a lamb would be offered as a burnt offering, and a pigeon/turtle dove would be offered as a sin offering (Leviticus 12:6). But if a woman could not afford a lamb for the burnt offering, then she would need to offer two pigeons/turtle doves instead of one – one for the burnt offering, and the other for the sin offering (Leviticus 12:8). This means Mary and Joseph were poor. This is not something a Jew would invent (the Jews were not expecting the Messiah to come from a poor family—they were expecting the Messiah to be a King, and kings are rich). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not create a Messiah that comes from a poor family

* Jesus spoke to a Samaritan woman (John 4:27). This does not reflect the social norms of Jewish culture (not something a Jew would invent) because (1) Samaritans (half-Jew half-Gentile) and Jews hated each other (John 4:9) (2) women would not socialize in public and men would not speak to women in public (it was not unlawful in regards to the Laws of Moses, but it was considered indecent and improper; a violation of Jewish rules known as Dat Yehudit). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not create a Messiah that hangs out with Samaritans or women in public.

* After Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman, the Samaritans believed Jesus was the “Savior of the world” (John 4:40) and not just Savior of the Jews. This is not something a Jew would invent. This is because the Jews and Samaritans were enemies. Interestingly, Jesus told a parable that portrays a Samaritan as more loving than Jewish Levites and priests (the Jewish Messiah is depicting a half-breed Jew as more loving than God’s very own people and those who excelled in knowledge of the Law; Luke 10:30-37). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not create a Messiah that places their enemies (Samaritans) on equal path with Jews or as more loving than the Jews.

* Jesus was raised as a carpenter and was a carpenter Himself (Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3). And Jesus spoke and associated with low class fishermen and low life prostitutes (sinners, tax collectors, drunkards and gluttons; Matthew 9:10-11; Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:33-34). In fact, Jesus washed the feet of His disciples (John 13:5-12). This is not something a Jew would invent. This is because the Jews were not expecting the Messiah to be a carpenter—they were expecting the Messiah to be a King, and kings do not wash the feet of fishermen or work as carpenters/come from low class family. Instead, kings come from royal families and have servants wash their feet. Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not create a Messiah that works as a carpenter and washes the feet of fishermen.

* Jesus chose 12 disciples/apostles. Two of these disciples include Matthew and Simon (not to be confused with Simon/Peter). As already mentioned, Matthew was Jew that worked as a tax collector for Rome (Matthew 10:3). They were hated by the Jews because they worked for the enemy (Rome) and would take more tax than what was required and keep for themselves. Simon was a Zealot (Luke 6:15). Zealots were members of a first-century political movement among Jews who sought to overthrow the occupying Roman government (enemies of Rome). So here we have two of Jesus’ disciples – one works for Rome, and the other is an enemy of Rome (two least likely candidates that the Jewish Messiah would choose to have because they oppose each other and are more likely to cause division—the equivalent of a 20th century Jew and Nazi German soldier joining forces). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not create a Messiah that chooses disciples that are on opposite political sides.

* Jesus was flogged, beaten, mocked, had a crown of thorns placed on Him, stripped of His clothes, crucified, put to death as a criminal by the Roman Empire, and buried in the tomb of a rich man named Joseph (Matthew 27; John 19). Crucifixions were one of the most shameful and degrading forms of executions. They took place in public where everyone could see. And most crucified victims were left to decompose on the cross without being given a proper burial. Yet Jesus was buried in the tomb of a rich man (if Joseph or someone else did not bury Jesus, then His body would have been thrown into a common grave with other criminals who were unable to afford a proper tomb or burial—suggesting that Jesus’ family were poor and could not afford a proper tomb or burial). This does not reflect the Jewish ideals of the Messiah. This is because the Jews were expecting the Messiah to free them from their enemies—not die as a criminal. Also, the fact that crucifixions were a public event suggests many people saw Jesus die (the same applies to his burial in a public place/tomb of a rich man). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not create a Messiah that dies and is buried in a public place (lots of witnesses to corroborate His death, burial and verify He existed). Nor would they depict the Messiah as a criminal that needed a rich man to bury Him because His family couldn’t afford a proper tomb and burial. Finally, crucified victims commonly took up to 3 days to die. Yet Jesus took 6 hours to die (Mark 15:25,33-34). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not depict Him as weak (crucified, and then unable to endure the crucifixion for an extended period of time)

* Jesus was accused of casting demons out while being possessed by a demon (Mark 3:22; John 7:20; John 8:48,52). He was accused of casting demons out by the power of a demon (Matthew 9:32-34; Matthew 12:22-24; Luke 11:14-15). He was accused of being a Samaritan/half-breed Jew (John 8:48). He was accused of being a deceiver/leading people astray (John 7:12). He was accused of being a drunkard (Luke 7:33-34). His family thought He was insane (Mark 3:21; John 10:20). His own brothers did not believe in Him (John 7:5). He was is betrayed by one of His disciples (Luke 22:48). He was abandoned by His disciples (Matthew 26:31,56). His closest disciple denied Him several times, including to a servant girl (Matthew 26:34,69-75; Luke 22:55-62). Some of His followers no longer followed Him because they didn’t like His teachings (John 6:66). People wanted Him dead and tried to kill Him (John 5:18; John 7:25; John 8:59; John 10:31,39). He fled after claiming to be God on two separate occasions (John 8:58-59; John 10:30-39). His disciples doubted His resurrection despite all the miracles they saw Him perform when He was alive (Matthew 28:17; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:36-42; John 20:25-29). If the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would not depict Him in this way (depicting the Messiah in a negative and embarrassing way will more likely be rejected by the Jews)

* Jesus was from the tribe of Judah and not the tribe of Levi (Matthew 1:1-2). Only a Levite could be a priest and high priest. Yet the book of Hebrews (believed to be written by Paul) identifies Jesus as high priest according to the “order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 5:6,10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:17 see also Hebrews 7:11-24). This means that Jesus’ priesthood is based on authority rather than on lineage (Hebrews 7:11-17). Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah and identify Him as high priest, then they would not falsify a geneology of the Messiah coming from Judah and then justify his priesthood on the grounds of authority. Instead, they would falsify a geneology of the Messiah coming from Levi and justify his priesthood on the grounds of lineage (it is more convincing to depict the Messiah as a high priest from the tribe of Lev)

* The NT quotes passages from the OT and identifies them as prophecies. These include the Messiah fleeing to Egypt as a child with his parents (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15), riding a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-15), being rejected by His own people/salvation for the Gentiles (Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 60:3; Luke 2:32; Acts 13:47-48), being betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9; John 13:18), being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12-13; Matthew 27:5,9-10), being forsaken by His followers (Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31), being forsaken by God (Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46), having his clothes divided and cast lots (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24), being pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37), and dying (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46). This does not reflect the Jewish ideals of the Messiah. Thus, if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah and use scripture as prophecies, then they would not falsify prophetic passages of the Messiah fleeing his homeland, riding a donkey, abandoned by everyone, and dying. Instead, they will falsify passages of the Messiah going into battle on a horse with His followers standing by His side (reflect the ideals and desires of the Jews/more convincing to pass off as prophecy)

Jewish Testimony

* The Babylonian Talmud is a central text of Rabbinic Judaism. Although it depicts Jesus as being put to death for practicing sorcery (hanged—an idiom for crucifixion/hanged on a cross), it does nevertheless identify Jesus as a real historic person;

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. Forty days before the execution, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." (Talmud Sanhedrin 43a)

If Jesus was invented by the NT authors (did not exist), then there would be no need for Jews to identify Him as being hanged. Instead, they would simply reject His existence entirely.

Key Points to Consider

* The Jews were not expecting the Messiah to be God. And the Jews were not expecting the Messiah to die and resurrect from the dead. Instead, the Jews were expecting a great Messianic figure who would be their king and free them from oppression. In other words, the Jews were expecting the Messiah to be a great king and strong military general who would crush their enemies and restore Israel to its former glory—not some God-Man who is born in a diseased-filled feeding trough in the cold night of a small town, is raised by a low-middle class carpenter, becomes a carpenter, hangs out with fishermen, washes their feet, is betrayed by a friend, is denied by His closest friend, is forsaken by His followers, is arrested, is beaten, is scourged, is mocked, is put to death as a criminal by one of the most shameful and degrading forms of executions, and then rises from the dead while leaving Israel under Roman power. In fact, this is why the Jews today reject Jesus as the Messiah (don’t believe the Messiah is God, don’t believe the Messiah is to be put to death). Thus, the Jews had nothing to benefit from inventing Jesus (He was far from the Jewish ideal leader). So if the Jewish NT authors were going to invent a false Messiah, then they would create a Messiah that the ideals and desires of the Jews (a Messiah that claims to be God and dies is not something a Jew would invent because it is not what they were expecting/ more likely to be rejected by the Jews)

* It was a violation of Jewish Law to worship false gods (the Jews were severely punished when they worshipped idols and false gods—such as exile and capital punishment). So if the Jewish NT authors invented Jesus, then it means that they created a false god, worshipped him (something that was punishable by death), and were willing and ready to die for their false god. Furthermore, it is bad enough that many Jews worshipped false gods. It would have been far worse if the Jewish NT authors (Matthew, John, Peter, James and Paul) invented a false god (the God-Man Jesus) and then try to pass Him off as the true God Yahweh

Conclusion

After careful examination, we are led to conclude that here is no reason to believe the NT authors would invent Jesus as a false Messiah

ghostgeek: Seems like Jesus was a real chap but what we know of him amounts to nothing other than that he was crucified.

devon fremd: Does anyone actually read posts like that long one up there? I don't think I'd have the patience.

youarewell2: Jesus is real. He is a living Supernatural Person. He is God, the Son. He gave life to every person that lives and every lived.

ghostgeek: Well, there you have it. Jesus is real because youarewell2 says so.

ghostgeek: I didn't read the long post above so I can't comment on it. Must have taken some effort to write, though.

youarewell2: Ghostgeek Said This=====> Well, there you have it. Jesus is real because youarewell2 says so.

MY ANSWER

Not because I say so, but Jesus says He will reveal Himself to those who love Him. Sounds like you have no contact from Jesus because you do not Love Jesus. Nor do you care about His Message to you.


John 14:21
He who has my laws and keeps them, he it is who has love for me: and he who has love for me will be loved by my Father, and I will have love for him and will let myself be seen clearly by him. (BBE)

ghostgeek: Never claimed to have any contact with Jesus and as I think the Gospels are fiction that's understandable.

devon fremd: Honestly, there's no need to worry about Jesus having been a historical person. The fact that he was that doesn't mean that you have to take a Christian view of him.

Mohammed was a historical person, but, acknowledging that fact doesn't make you a Muslim, or someone who has to become one.

bonzono: jesus is living?

i thought he died...
maybe he didn't.

maybe he came back to life.
... not sure what purpose that would have though, kinda seems like a god dying and coming back to life is as impressive as me cutting my toenails.

or are we supposed to be impressed about gods that come back to life?

i mean... what was sacrificed that this god can't ever have again? anything?

devon fremd: Well he can never get back not having been tortured to death. If he remembers things forever he's got a big one there.