Show proof jesus was the Jewish Messiah WITHOUT basing your argument on faith or belief, show concrete evidence jesus was the Messiah foretold of in the Hebrew Scriptures.  That's been done a lot, hasn't it? Michael Brown's "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus", for example. Michael Brown has been debunked a lot. Prefer people to respond in their own words for conversation’s sake. Anyone can quote someone else.  Christianity bases it on the prophecies of the OT. And considering they are the only group that to my knowledge believes Jesus as the Messiah out of the Abrahamic religions, it is fair to go with that? Or "The Emmaus Code: finding Jesus in the Old Testament" by David Limbaugh. I haven't heard of that being "debunked a lot". Do you have any evidence you can bring forward or are you just going to cite other people’s claims? Just talking, Mr. Christ. This is a penpals website. People talk. You sound like you are afraid of these considered and published cases for what you are asking about. You prefer to hear amateur observations that you would find easy to defeat. Is that it? Just read a bit. It's interesting. Call me DNC. I am anything but afraid. I read and study every single day. What you’re suggesting is to consider christian authors and sources for what is an inherent Jewish concept. Have you considered reading published and highly credible sources about the Jewish Messiah from Jewish sources? BTW, asking a very simple question regarding even one messianic prophecy being fulfilled by jesus is open to “amateurs” and experts alike. I’ve yet to see a response. Just for fun, here is a selection of titles on the subject of Jesus' prefiguration in the Old Testament (as Christians call it). In this case, I haven't read a single one of them myself. There sure does seem to be a lot of this stuff though. David Murray, "Jesus on Every Page: 10 Simple Ways to Seek and Find Christ in the Old Testament". Dennis E. Johnson, "Walking with Jesus through His Word: Discovering Christ in All the Scriptures". Edmund Clowney, "The Unfolding Mystery: Discovering Christ in the Old Testament". Vern Poythress, "The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses". David E. Holwerda, "Jesus & Israel: One Covenant or Two?" S. G. De Graaf, "Promise and Deliverance". (4 vols.) Gerard Van Groningen, "Messianic Revelation in the Old Testament". Christopher J. H. Wright, "Knowing Jesus Through the Old Testament". Graeme Goldsworthy, "The Son of God and the New Creation". Jonathan Edwards, "A History of the Work of Redemption". Why do you present proof you’ve never set eyes on? Do you expect me to read each one cover to cover for the sake of this forum thread? Simply state even one messianic prophecy jesus fulfilled. Surely you’ve heard of one claim. BTW I can use the same tactic. Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz The Jewish Response to Missionaires (Counter-Missionary Handbook Areh Kaplan The Real Messiah?: A Jewish Response to Missionaries Samuel Levine You Take Jesus, I’ll Take G-d Asher Norman Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus Tovia Singer Let’s Get Biblical David Klinghoffer Why the Jews Rejected Jesus MiltonAsh Jesus, the False Messiah: A Study About the Messianism of Jesus There are countless more. I’ve read two of these. Showing lists of books that support each side of the debate doesn’t serve this forum thread. I’m looking for dialogue the reader can follow and contribute to. WITHOUT basing your argument on faith or belief, show concrete evidence jesus was the Messiah foretold of in the Hebrew Scriptures. This is meant as a conversation, not a bookstore. (Edited by DontNeedChrist) So again I’ll ask, can anyone name JUST ONE messianic prophecy jesus fulfilled? Keep in mind it will most likely be instantly refuted. I forgot to mention the best thing I actually have read that at least touches on this subject: "The Case for Jesus" by Catholic Biblical scholar Brant Pitre. He finely explicates the famous "seventy weeks prophecy" from the Book of Daniel, along with much else. The so-called 70 weeks prophecy (which is one of the most complicated to explain) has been debunked repeatedly. I’d be happy to explain it away but it would take time. (Edited by DontNeedChrist)  One significant messianic prophecy that Jesus is often seen as fulfilling is found in Isaiah 7:14, which states, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Christians interpret this prophecy as being fulfilled in the birth of Jesus, who was born of the Virgin Mary. The name "Immanuel" means "God with us," which Christians believe reflects the incarnation of Jesus as God in human form. This connection is explicitly made in the New Testament in Matthew 1:22-23. Seen this one time and again. I’ll state unequivocally that there is absolutely no prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures of the messiah being born of a virgin. Here is a more accurate translation of the Isaiah verse: THE HEBREW: “Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, THE YOUNG WOMAN IS WITH CHILD, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned.” The Hebrew word used for “young woman” is “almah”. It refers to a woman of the age typical for marriage. Almah denotes age only — it just means “young woman”, “woman of marrying age”. Any woman — married, single, virgin, or even a whore — of that age is an almah. Biblical Hebrew has a specific word that means “virgin" “bethulah,” and it was used frequently in Isaiah’s time. It refers to a woman who is a virgin. If Isaiah had meant that the mother of Immanuel was a virgin, he would surely have used bethulah. We KNOW the young woman in question is not a virgin because SHE IS ALREADY PREGNANT derived from accurate translations. "...behold, THE YOUNG WOMAN IS WITH CHILD." If she is with child logically she is not a virgin. Common sense. THE CONTEXT: About 735 years before jesus was born, Judah (the house of David) was under attack from Israel and Syria. Judah’s King Ahaz was approached by the prophet Isaiah to console him and give him a sign as to how long the siege would last. Isaiah replied that it would be a short time because there was a child to be born who would be called Immanuel by his mother, and that before this child was old enough to distinguish right from wrong, Israel and Syria would have been defeated. About three years later, Syria was defeated and pillaged by Assyria and Israel was forced into submission to Assyria. Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled over 700 years BEFORE jesus was born. Isaiah simply prophesied that a child would be born to a woman who would name her son Immanuel. When Ahaz would see this, he would be assured that G-d would save the Kingdom of Judah. The child might have been any child near that time. The point was not to identify the child, but to specify the duration of the siege. The young woman spoken of is referred to with a definite article as “THE young woman” (as opposed to “A young woman” which Matthew changes it to). It was a woman known to either Isaiah or Ahaz in their time. The identity of the child is secondary to the age he will be when Ahaz’s enemies are defeated. Immanuel may have even been one of Isaiah’s many sons: Isaiah 8:18- “Behold, I and the children whom the Lord has given to me are for SIGNS and for SYMBOLS to Israel from G-d Almighty, who dwells in Mount Zion.” NOT JESUS: "Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned.” How could sinless man/god jesus have to learn how the difference between bad and good? Immanuel was a completely different person born over 700 years before jesus. Nowhere in the NT is jesus called or referred to as Immanuel. In Luke 1:31 the angel Gabriel tells Mary what to name him: "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus." NOT IMMANUEL. In Matthew 1:21 "an angel of the Lord" comes to Joseph and says: "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus..." NOT IMMANUEL. Christians claim because Immanuel means "G-d with us" it's just another name for jesus. But the angels failed to tell his parents to name him Immanuel. The meaning of a different name has nothing to do with his given name. It's forced and illogical. The mountain of evidence regarding Isaiah 7:14 is overwhelmingly against the subject of the chapter being the messiah or jesus. This one is easily disproven simply by examining the original Hebrew it was written in and the context of the verse. It doesn’t matter what scriptures from other religions claim. The source is the Jewish bible.  It's always better to read a whole chapter rather than just single out one verse....context. So far one person has listed books to reference and another has posted the easiest so-called messianic prophecy to refute. Surely we can do better. You could always read one of the books and show it up for wrong, Mr. Christ, if you're looking for something to do. Call me DNC not Mr. christ. I’d advise you to do the same with the list I provided. I’ve studied this stuff for years. I’m about 99.9% sure I know what those books say. It’s all been debunked ad nauseum. Nothing new under the sun. You could attempt to accept the challenge instead of pointing to the works of others. That seems to be your default which is fine but makes for a weak contribution to this conversation. An FYI, Papi Oso who chimed in above responded to a PM from me with a lengthy list of so-called fulfilled prophecies of which not one was actually a messianic prophecy. He then declared he was not interested in this topic and proceeded to block me preventing a reply. | Religion Chat Room 21 People Chatting Similar Conversations |