What about the 10 commandments? (Page 2)

That is DNCs own opinion.

"The Messiah will end all wars and defeat Israel’s enemies. That ain’t never happened." - DNC

No? Are you saying the sovereign nation of modern Israel failed to defend itself so has fallen??? Those aren't the facts. No one will rule over the Holy Land without God's permission.

The Age of Nation-building is over. God has forgiven the Jews and invited them back to their homeland. No nation will conquer Israel again.

Do YOU have enemies? If God hasn't defeated YOUR enemies yet, the problem is with YOU, not with God. Saving the world isn't on the same time track as saving an individual.

If you want an instant Messiah, giving Him zero organizational time for advertising and recruitment, then that's for you, if you don't mind waiting until hell freezes over.

Did Moses's followers complain when it took 500 plus years to build the first Temple? No, they had a little box they could carry around with them and put under a tent until they could settle down in one place. Who else in the world knew they were doing that?

Today, we have the Internet - as long as you can tap keys, there's no reason you couldn't know what's going on. If you focus on wars, you're looking at ruined earthly things, not at the horizon of the Kingdom of God.

Not once have I offered an opinion in this thread.

“No? Are you saying the sovereign nation of modern Israel failed to defend itself so has fallen??? Those aren't the facts.”

I never said Israel has failed to defend itself. Stop twisting my words. I said Israel’s enemies will be defeated. To this day Israel is surrounded by enemies that seek to wipe her off the map. THAT IS A FACT. It’s irrefutable evidence the Messiah has not come and jesus failed to fulfill as such. This is not an opinion. This is a factual statement.

Again, the rest of your post is nonsensical, mind numbing word salads that don’t warrant a response.

Having an enemy is a good thing - if you don't have one, you're not important. Every Revelator of God was perfect yet all of them had enemies out to kill them and their followers.

If the Jews had not been important, the Nazis would never have sought to exterminate every last one of them. Do you think it was because of their religion or ethnic background? Either way, the Nazis wern't successful.

Haters persecute religious folk to this day; however, in this century and going forward, killing people for any of the old reasons isn't tolerated by the world stage. I'd say that's an advancement.......and it's not because one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill".

And how does any of your post have one thing to do with the topic? IT DOESN’T. Such a waste of bandwidth.

Read the last line of my post.

Speaking of things relative, you were the one who brought up the Messiah, making sure that subject stays at the top, rather than addressing the laws.

I addressed the laws in my first post. They were given to the Jews ONLY and they will never be abolished.

They could certainly use updating - that is, with additional laws that should also be "written in stone".

Only that would violate G-d’s edict to never add to the Law or ever subtract from it. Guess you missed that part.

Well, that would apply to you, not me.

As I've maintained, Moses never said His laws were only for one people. There's a reason everyone knows about the 10 Commandments but practically nothing about the other laws Moses made. The separation has a purpose.

There are laws that are for ALL of mankind and, laws that were expressly for the Israelites. I'm not talking about changing the latter.

An update on *spiritual* law doesn't change the existing laws - it means to expand them. Only a Revelator of God can make that change and He doesn't ever change the text of God's *previous* Holy Books.

You know when the change has been made because, as a result, mankind has a greater capacity to obey the old laws.

Let’s discuss updating:

In the law of Moses, Leviticus says that ‘you must love the stranger among you as you love yourself’. It’s NOT among the 10 Commandments because God didn’t expect the generality of mankind to observe this at the time. On the other hand, the Israelites were prepared and ready to obey. However, there are several different kinds of love, so that’s an open- ended discussion.

I’m told that in the Jewish view of the above law, the subject of racism, ethnic or religious contempt doesn’t exist in the community. I’d like to think that’s true but of course, I can’t read everyone’s hidden thoughts.

This law speaks to the heart but not to what comes out of the mouth. That’s an action. An expansion would be to make this law universally tangible – that is, to give it the same weight, clarity and renown as the existing 10 commandments.

What would that expansion look like? No cultural trappings; no possible way to interpret or misinterpret. It would be a law that directly and graphically forbids “racism, ethnic or religious contempt”.

**Thou shalt NOT attack or strike anyone in any form.**

Are all humans capable of following that law today? I would say yes. How do I know this?
The law of Moses addresses how a court is to judge misbehaviour. So does the law of the land, except slander, abuse, and assault can be interpreted; collusion and duress could occur with the perp escaping full justice on a turn of phrase. There's a thin line between a false accusation and an accurate first -hand witness testimony.

Is one fault-finding and passing blame or reporting a crime?

A court executes punishment, but the sentences don’t necessarily serve as a preventative.
There must be a stronger law that prevents damage; a spiritual law will do that if directed to our current capacity. It must aim at the cause of these problems.

For example, it must forbid backbiting and gossip. We can and do control the way we speak, legally, through our peers, and pressure from society. (read political correctness and protocol)

All religious folk should be the first to set the example for society, to be the role models for all mankind. They must lift mankind and pull it along to an ever higher standard of conduct. We can't do that if the universal laws are milky.

Milky? Maybe to you.

Look at it this way. We're all servants in the same Cause of God -it's the same path. It's not new. Most of the laws in the scriptures are the same.

However, if there is ONE group of those servants whom everyone sees as consistently more diligent in practicing these immutable laws, you'd have to concede that their education was better. For some reason, they had a deeper understanding.

We'd ask them why this is so. You won't get a vague answer - someone will hand you a book with the verses of God and you'll see for yourself that this new clarity of language and presentation was the main reason.

It's not a competition, since God doesn't compete with Himself; it's about what the Words produce - empowerment. There's nothing, except one's self, preventing anyone from reading, hearing, and enjoying the same results.

Yet another order of word salad.

Comes a time where a child of God has to learn to eat salad without choking on it. You'll get there when you get there.

Whatever the h*ll that means.

I'm fine with spelling out HELL - God did.

Zanjan

First, just a little bit of pickiness. It's spelled Ezekiel, not Ezekeil. It looks like you used AI--the long dash is a giveaway. But sometimes even AI makes mistakes. The way you can remember is that El means God. Isra-El means prevail against God. Dani-El means God is my judge. Samu-El means God has heard.

I hate long posts, so I will choose just one of your many errors to address.

The messianic prophecy is for worldwide peace, not just peace for Israel. "Nations" and "many peoples" means that the prophecy extends FAR beyond Israel. And this is prophesied not just once, but twice. And Zanjan, there is no worldwide peace. The Messiah has not yet come.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge between THE NATIONS and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Micah 4:3
And he shall judge between MANY PEOPLES and reprove mighty NATIONS afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

Just one final word. You indicate that Israel is defending itself. Let's say for the sake of argument that the prophesies are about Israel. They aren't, but let's pretend. What is it about "Neither shall they learn war anymore" that you don't understand? This isn't about effectively defending yourself. This is about cessation of war. All Israeli citizen are required to serve in the IDF and very definitely DO learn warfare.

Zanjan:

Something else you said caught my eye. Apparently you think that "And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him" is a law binding on all humanity. I would like to comment on this verse.

First, a general remark. DNC is correct in saying that these laws at Sinai were given only to the Jews. How many times does the Torah say, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel, saying..." The children of Israel. Not the nations. Not the world.

The word being translated here as stranger is וְגֵ֥ר "Ger." But Ger doesn't refer to all strangers, it actually something far more specific. Geirus is the process by which an outsider becomes adopted into the People of Israel, by which a non-Jew becomes a Jew. A Ger is someone who has been so adopted in. There is no equivalent in English for the word Ger. Sometimes it gets translated as "convert." Other times as "stranger." Both these translations fall short of its meaning.

The Torah speaks of three kinds of non-Jews. The first is someone outside the Land. The second is someone who sojourns in Israel; they are in the Land temporarily, usually as a traveler or itinerant merchant.

But the third is someone who settles PERMANENTLY in the Land. This Ger (resident alien) aka Ger Toshav (resident alien who lives among the Israelites) is required to become part of the People of Israel. They are to be circumcised and observe the 613 laws. They BECOME Jews. This is why Ger is sometimes translated as "convert" or "proselyte."

So the Stranger the Torah speaks of in that verse is a resident alien who as taken the Covenant upon themselves and become a Jew.

This means that the commandment is REALLY about not harassing the convert. There are racist Jews just like in any other group. They will look down on a convert, seeing them as an inferior Jew or perhaps not a Jew at all. God is saying that this is sin.

It is because of this verse that the Rabbis have said we are not to even ASK if someone is a convert or not. This is a typical "Build a fence around the Torah" move, i.e. if you don't know who is a convert, you can't discriminate against them.

@ Channa. Indeed, I misspelled; thank you for the correction – makes it easier to remember next time.

No doubt Ezekiel made numerous prophecies – I pointed to a particular one, a single event, placed in the matching time frame. Nothing else could fill that spot so, I made no error there.

The question was about the Messiah Who would issue out of Moses’s people, and in that particular place, traditionally called the 'Messiah for the Jews'. The specified requisites identify Him.

There was more than one Messiah to come – Isaiah’s prophecies confirm that, also Daniel’s. They point to a different Age, as shown in your citations. They didn't align with Ezekiel’s prophecy. Therefore, the Divine Savior (Messiah) of that Age of world peace would have His own specified requisites. You won’t find them in the Old Testament because they didn’t know. They’re in more recent scriptures.

“And Zanjan, there is no worldwide peace.” - Channa

Who said it would be instantaneous? If you'd lived 3.5 thousand years ago, would you wait for Moses to finish His work before you believed in Him? (That’s what everybody does now) If everyone had done that back then, He wouldn’t have had any followers.

You seem to think there’s no work involved, no sacrifices or phases to navigate to reach the ultimate goal. Did the Israelites get their land and sovereignty instantly? Despite the world being lit up with the Divine Light, success wasn’t obtained easily or quickly, neither for the followers of Jesus or Muhammad.

By the way, peace isn’t an end to physical war; there are countless ways folks can be at odds with each other, causing pain. Traditional War is no longer profitable so will fizzle out but we still have those other things to deal with.

“these laws at Sinai were given only to the Jews. How many times does the Torah say, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel, saying..." The children of Israel. Not the nations.


Yes, Israel wasn’t anywhere close to a nation at the time. The children of Israel are ALL those who’ve battled their own demons, who’ve fought against the Will of God but finally submitted. They have the same story and have come out of it with the same spirit of submissiveness, no matter where they live on earth – God doesn’t forget those who remember God.

The address is to those who stand in His Holy Court, not to members of a specific religion, race or nation. Will you tell me God didn’t know there were people in the western hemisphere at the time?? Would He have abandoned them?

The minute those fateful Words were uttered, some, not many, people were present in the flesh. Nevertheless, did these Words never reach any Westerners or Indigenous people? Do you think evil individuals care what God thinks or says to do?

God doesn't speak to those who don't lend Him an ear.

“Yes, Israel wasn’t anywhere close to a nation at the time.”

WRONG.

The instant mattan Torah (receiving of the Torah) occurred, Benei Yisroel (children of Israel) became a nation.

If you say so. Seems a bit too simplistic to me.

In my view, receiving the laws was the moment the Faith of Moses became an *organized* religion. A nation doesn't wander - it's rooted to a region. These early followers were nomadic while having all the laws in hand.

From a fledgling band of believers, a motley crew, they transformed into large group that had to work together to develop their community, then move on to establish a new civilization.

First, they needed a Plan, the divine Blueprints - the Commandments are the foundation on which that civilization was built.

Our identity as Bnei Yisrael from the children of Yaakov/Israel to 'Am Yisrael' a people- to 'Goy Kadosh' a holy nation was defined by our relationship to Hashem and ultimately by matan Torah- the giving of Torah.

Bnei Yisrael entered Egypt as a family- the first verse of Shemot names Yaakov, his sons, and their households. A few verses later we read 'bnei Yisrael were fruitful and increased and the land became filled with them'. A couple verses later we read that Pharaoh said to his own people: 'Am bnei Yisrael- the people of the children of Israel are more numerous and stronger than we are.'

Before the exodus- Hashem spoke to Moshe Rabbeinu:
'I will take you to me as a people- li l'am...'
Exodus 6:7

When we are about to receive Torah we are called a nation.
'And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation- goy kadosh...'
Exodus 19:6

The book of Exodus is about our journey as bnei Yisrael from a family to a nation.