If God exists, where is he? (Page 9)

What goes on in heaven?

Well, it's another world and a better world than this earthly one. Heaven is nearness to God. We all agree it's not nearness to the salad bar.

Man isn't happy without a job and a purpose. He needs things to do and needs to be needed. If everything we did was perfect and everything that occurred was delightful, according to the things we most treasured on earth, we'd soon lose our taste for that and get bored.

We know what that feels like. We call it "taking things for granted". If your heaven is skiing down a hill on fresh powder in the sun, how do you trump that? The boar might make some fine BBQ ribs but I bet it wouldn't be long before you missed fried chicken.

Man needs a challenge and adventure, a chance to learn, grow, and stand against the wind. He needs victory to feel alive and defeat to remind him to pack away that ego. He needs to see people happy, pour his love out on them, inspire and support them, taking joy in their attainments.

A better world is one where nothing holds you back from those opportunities.

Christians are like the donkey Jesus rode in on. It was a foal. You won't read that He was holding a long pole over its head with a carrot attached to the end but the writings sure make it look like that.

Anything that moves has life; consequently, there must be a reason to move. There are only two kinds of incentives – 1. The jingle of the icecream truck; and 2. a fire under the butt.

I reckon when people find out that everyone in heaven is zipping around the kingdom, busy as bees in a hive, most would say "No thanks. Looks like work’ . I can assure you that if God chooses you, you’ll get the fire.

What a curious thing that God has to repeat Himself in each Book. Every Revelator has to explain God each time from scratch. Why?

People didn’t believe anymore; yet, if they don’t believe in the old Books, why would they believe in a new one? Does the addition of a few extra words make the difference? Worth a study.

Let’s hear it from the most recent authority. Bear with - normally, I don’t offer long quotes but this speaks directly to the main topic:


“To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery.

He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtle, the All-Perceiving....

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.”

~ Baha'u'llah

He has much more to say about these Revelators; that was just a brief.

So your God has everyone in heaven worked to a frazzle? Well, if that's so, I can see the appeal of Islam, at least for blokes. Lying around on couches being served snacks sounds a much better bet than being as busy as bees in a hive.

Of course, that still leaves me in the dark as to where, exactly, these couches are. Could be they're all up the top of a hill somewhere but I have a sneaking suspicion that that isn't the case.

See, that's the problem with religions. They spend most of their time telling the faithful what they can and can't do instead of explaining the nuts and bolts of the "spiritual" world.

Even hammering Google doesn't help in locating heaven. Try it and you get something like this:

The Bible mentions three heavens. The first heaven is where the birds fly and the clouds reside. The second heaven is where the sun, the moon, and the stars abide. The third heaven is where the very throne of God resides and where Jesus presently sits at the right hand of the Father. Heaven is a real place. In the book of Isaiah 6:1-5 he reveals an amazing look that he had at the throne of heaven, “I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphim, each with six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another, 'Holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole Earth is full of his glory.' At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. 'Woe to me!' I cried. I am ruined. For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

[ https://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/where-is-heaven/ ]

Very poetic I'm sure, but it doesn't tell us where to point our telescopes to get a view of God's throne.

Is this even an issue? If there is a God he is a spiritual entity and not perceivable by us.

Religious people think his presence is announced by his creation, including ourselves ("what could be more absurd than supposing that mere chance could result in intelligent beings?" as Montesquieu said) and they also generally think that he actively responds to faith and to religious practice.

As to where he is, I understand the answer is "everywhere".

Mmm, so the Bible is wrong when it depicts God talking to human beings? If that's so, why take anything it says at face value?

Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?

13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear.

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.

Why would it be wrong? These aren't Biblical times, and since early encounters with God became the basis of the Bible, we can look to that now, for knowledge of him. But he can have talked to human beings 5000 years ago, if he wanted to, as he seems to have done.

According to more than a few believers on this site, God's still wittering away to people.

Now I'm not claiming to believe them, but if it's true what they say, that God is sat on His throne, I would just like to know where this throne is situated.

Ghost: “the appeal of Islam, at least for blokes. Lying around on couches being served snacks”

What else can you expect from a desert people living in a hot country? Can’t do much when its 40-55 C. Of course, they have an advantage so will feel equally at home in hell, right?

“See, that's the problem with religions. They spend most of their time telling the faithful what they can and can't do”

Yes, it seems to be an old habit. The Pope is in my province right now on His penitence pilgrimage, speaking to our First Nations people and offering an apology, asking for forgiveness. He’s probably the best Pope the Catholic church has ever had yet there were some sticking points in his presentation.

On the importance of First Nations women, he said "the church is a woman and a mother, teaching her children the ways of the Spirit" (truth: ruled by the old boys clergy club).

He said "troubled youth have abandoned their freedom to cell phones". I guess he doesn’t like teleprompters or tablets either since he read every word of his speech from a paper document without looking up at any faces until he’d stopped talking.

Did you know the Italian word for "Lord" is "Signore"? Every time he said it I smiled a little as it brought to mind gruff Mexicans without badges. Si,Seenore.

I’m not surprised so many were left with mixed emotions. The Pope wants First Nations to trust the church again. They say if you want that, then words aren’t enough.

Ghost: “it doesn't tell us where to point our telescopes to get a view of God's throne.”

Isaiah is speaking of his call to prophecy in the year 742 BCE. He had a vision; you’d need one too. He saw the throne of heaven, not God. He saw the Lord, the most recent Revelator, the King. Lets see – that would have been Zoroaster, Who had appeared around 1,000 BCE.

Why do you think Isaiah was so upset? It was the first he'd learned about it and he knew it meant serious judgement for the Jews.

Of course, we’re not Prophets but we can still have a vision – not necessarily a literal vision but one inspired by the spiritual season and needs of society. Baha’is have a world-embracing vision – it’s what had brought them to the Faith of God.

Ghost: “so the Bible is wrong when it depicts God talking to human beings?”

Only certain humans. When we pray, we’re talking to God; when we read the scriptures, God is talking to us.

“I would just like to know where this throne is situated.”

Read the quote I posted again - GOD’s throne is in His own Reality. Good thing too, most of us have learned something from Icarus.

"GOD’s throne is in His own Reality," you say but where is this alternative reality, what's it's nature and can it really be said to exist?

Ever heard of the Great Pumpkin? Seems it appears every Halloween night:

The Great Pumpkin is an unseen imaginary character in the Peanuts comic strip by Charles M. Schulz. The existence of the Great Pumpkin is a strongly-held belief by Linus, who has often been described as the most intelligent of the group, and yet, the most gullible. Linus firmly believes that on Halloween night the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch and flies all over the world delivering toys to all good children everywhere.

The Great Pumpkin was first referred to on October 26, 1959, and went on to become an annual feature of the Peanuts comic strip. It provided the basis for an animated television special, It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown and, to some extent, has entered into the wider popular culture.

Linus' belief is actually the result of a confusion of Santa Claus and the commercialization of Christmas with the Halloween holiday. While the other Peanuts characters go trick-or-treating on the holiday, Linus spends his time in a nearby "sincere" pumpkin patch, hoping for the Great Pumpkin's arrival with presents for Halloween. For decades, even as Linus' intellect grew and became more apparent, his mistaken notion was never to be outgrown. He would spend days on end trooping door-to-door, trying to make believers out of everyone he encountered. He very seldom succeeded... and even when he did (with Sally Brown, Peppermint Patty, and Marcie, who accidentally labeled it as the "Great Grape" or the "Great Squash" ), no Great Pumpkin would show (as Sally told him, "You owe me restitution!" ).

Linus' faith in his guardian would never waver, however, and he would catch himself quickly at the first sign of self-doubt ("I'm doomed! One quick slip like that could cause the Great Pumpkin to pass you by!" ).

In the strip from October 29, 1961, Linus refers to "the record" of the Great Pumpkin's appearances in the past two years at particular pumpkin patches in Connecticut and Texas, respectively, and a few days later on November 1, Charlie Brown awakes a sleeping Linus in the pumpkin patch to say he heard a Great Pumpkin sighting "by... Freeman in New Jersey" over the radio. However, for the rest of the strip's run, such corroborating references are ultimately ignored and the Great Pumpkin is treated as strictly a figment of Linus' overactive imagination and quasi-religious conviction that defies all arguments against the idea.

[ https://peanuts.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Pumpkin ]

Doesn't sound a million miles away from people's belief in God.

Ghost: "where is this alternative reality, what's it's nature and can it really be said to exist?"

There's no such thing as an alternate reality - reality is one.

Science has reported it knows that higher dimensions exist; they've suggested as many as 10-11 of them. However, we don't know the nature of those forces because we can't go there. We're consigned to the lowest dimensions, which is where the physical plane is expressed.

Nevertheless, we can reach into the next dimension above with the fingers of our mind. Whatever is there will cool or heat them, turning them into a different colour. We know it's not imaginary when somebody or something else gets touched by them.

You might ask how science knows this since it can only study physical phenomena - you can look up their explanation. Briefly, it's the same they use for the cosmos: when something is invisible, the evidence of its presence is seen by the effect it has on the behaviour of everything else near it.

I'm familiar with the Peanuts strip but my favourite is Calvin and Hobbs. Calvin was always having an amusing existential crisis, shared with his trusting and patient tiger, Hobbs. The reader's curiosity was satisfied with each episode because Calvin was able to impress on us some interesting and practical philosophies.

The Great Pumpkin signified what Linus knew but couldn't explain with the scant info he had at hand. He had the toys and the tale as evidence but not the secret, which was his invisible parents, messing with his head supposedly in the guise of being supportive. Of course, readers were confident Linus would discover the key some day and the jig would be up.

Countless are the poets who've tried to describe love yet failed.

Many devoted believers, some doubters too, have desired to meet with God, not just talk to Him. I recall you once said, Ghost, that you wouldn't be convinced unless God walked in and sat down for a cup of tea with you. When I read that, I heard God laughing.

Anyway, seekers think this is a place – it’s the mystical aspect of religion. Every culture has its own way of addressing the need to pursue the ecstasy of His presence but they tend to go off in tangents of group-think.

That gives rise to asceticism and other odd practices. Surely this is a waste of time when they don’t understand what they’re doing. So how can one meet with God if He dwells in a dimension we can’t access? Well, there is a way…… kind of.

A distinguished Sufi scholar asked Baha'u'llah this question and how it applies to their traditions. Baha'u'llah responded with a lengthy treatise titled "The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys". It's very absorbing, describing each leg of the spiritual journey - a must- read for serious seekers who've already done some preliminary research. As food for thought, here's an excerpt:

“Whensoever the light of the revelation of the King of Oneness settleth upon the throne of the heart and soul, His radiance becometh visible in every limb and member. At that time, the mystery of the famed tradition gleameth out of the darkness: “A servant is drawn unto Me in prayer until I answer him, and when I have answered him, I become the ear wherewith he heareth …

For thus the Master of the house hath appeared within His home, and all the pillars of the dwelling are ashine with His light. And as the action and effect of the light are from the Light-Giver, so it is that all move through Him and arise by His will. "

~ Baha’u’llah

A lot of mistakes were made on here, the use of the word and at the front of a sentence is one example. I can't put it on here, it is believed to be an early form of the name of the main Hebrew god, it was found at Mount Ebal in what is now The Palestinian Territories at West Bank.

https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2022/03/25/top-three-reports-in-biblical-archaeology-march-2022/

Then various forms of writing later it got to אֱלֹהִים (that starts from the back and then goes to the front) which is in the Massoretic Text that is supposed to mean élohiym, ´Élöhîm and various other version of that. All of those words are really about gods, not about a god and certainly not some alternative name for a god. אֱלֹהִים is a supposed to be the Tetragrammaton (four lettered name) for the Hebrew god. These days people assume that it means YWHW or WHWY (Yod or Yad-hey-vav-hey) because of modern Hebrew but in reality everyone has guessed what earlier Hebrew means, so every name, every letter and every word that is Hebrew that is not modern Hebrew could be entirely wrong. No one knows what the main Hebrew god was named. Whatever it was the transliteration and translation of that name was stuffed up by those who used Koine Greek, every other kind of Greek that isn't modern Greek, every form of Latin and so on. I have now checked it up extensively and there is nothing from before 700 AD (The Dark Ages) where the name God is known to be used, so either whatever had it was destroyed or it hasn't been found or no one wrote that down by then even if anyone actually said the name God as a nickname for the Hebrew in origin god as early as 600 AD which is very doubtful.

There is no His, Him and so on, it is just him and his. The word should be exist, anyway the Hebrew god and every other religious god is nowhere to be found because they are all made up. Zanjan doesn't know the name of any religious god (all of which are imaginary), we don't know anything about any god and it is possible that every god is made up. The 'Baha' man either really believed what he told others or he lied to people and conned them. Those Baha men wanted to know who let them out. Do you know who did ?

There is a video that is unfortunately sped out, it's Through the wormhole : Is God an alien concept ? Another thing Zanjan should watch is a movie named 'The Island'. If I can find that book by that one that you both told me about for free on the internet then I will look at it. There is no such thing as a Revelator, besides it's a spelling error as well. There is "The revelation !" though.

All this talk of God being an inhabitant of other, higher dimensions brings to mind a certain tatty paperback: "God Drives A Flying Saucer". So is God an Alien Grey?