FAITH

Blackshoes
Blackshoes:

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
(Edited by Blackshoes)
1 year ago Report
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: Deuteronomy 6:6-7

Proverbs 22:6 tells us, "Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it." What a great responsibility this places on parents. Records of royal lineage (1 Kings 15-16) illustrate that one's level of submission to God is often mirrored in the offspring's life.

Now, it's true that children eventually grow and make their own decisions. There are godly parents who are heartbroken by their kids' poor choices. Similarly, some from backgrounds full of sinful bondage become righteous people of integrity.As mothers and fathers, we are given a momentous task: to model and teach how to live according to God's Word. Thankfully, we don't have to rely on ourselves for wisdom. Good parenting involves prayerful self-evaluation, godly counsel, and thoughtful course corrections.

Start by considering how you'd answer the following questions if your children were to walk in your way: What place will Jesus, the Word of God, and the church have in their lives? Will they seek God's direction as the ultimate guide for decisions? Will they develop strong godly relationships? Will they know how to handle money wisely? Will they do their best in their vocation? As you seek answers, ask God to reveal truth, since self-examination can be difficult.

In prayerfully considering your impact as a parent, expect to see positives and negatives. The goal isn't self-condemnation, so keep in mind 1) there's no perfect parent and 2) it's never too late. Even if the kids are grown, you can ask forgiveness, share what you've learned, and model a godly life starting now.from Dr. Charles Stanley Promises for Children
We admitted that we were powerless over our dependencies and that our lives had become unmanageable.

There is a special kind of powerlessness experienced when we’re unable to take care of the needs of our children or others who are dependent on us. For those of us raised in dysfunctional families, there are grief and fear associated with watching our children suffer, as the effects of our own past fall upon them.

With God’s help, Hagar had faced her life with Abraham and Sarah. When Sarah was finally able to give birth to her own son, she demanded that Hagar and Ishmael be thrown out of the family. In response, Abraham "got up early the next morning, prepared food and a container of water, and strapped them on Hagar’s shoulders. Then he sent her away with their son, and she wandered aimlessly in the wilderness of Beersheba. When the water was gone, she put the boy in the shade of a bush. Then she went and sat down by herself about a hundred yards away. 'I don’t want to watch the boy die,' she said, as she burst into tears. But God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, 'Hagar, what’s wrong? Do not be afraid! God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Go to him and comfort him, for I will make a great nation from his descendants.' Then God opened Hagar’s eyes, and she saw a well full of water. She quickly filled her water container and gave the boy a drink" (Genesis 21:14-19).

God doesn’t forget his promises toward us or our children. When we are powerless to help them, God is listening to their cries and ours. We can expect God’s help when we are powerless to help our children. He loves them even more than we do.

Our problems won’t seem so impossible if we let God handle them. by Stephen Arterburn and David Stoop
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes:


How accurate is the Bible?

" That is a question many have asked after talking with a Mormon or after hearing a college professor declare the Bible to be filled with inaccuracies and therefore not trustworthy. It is understandable that the cults are motivated to discredit the Bible, and it is understandable that an unbelieving professor stepped outside of his expertise. But how should we respond to 300,000 to 500,000 variants in the source manuscripts of our Bible? Can we really trust the Bible? To answer these questions, we need to start by understanding the One who wrote the Bible.
Character of God
The character of God is the only real reason we can trust the Bible to speak the truth. Most critics are not aware they have a faulty assumption that colors their view of the Bible. Here is how most people view God.

You thought that I was just like you . . . Psalm 50:21 (NASB)

God speaks boldly in this verse. He is not like us. He does not make mistakes. He does not need the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Library of Congress, or a news reporter to help Him understand something or use to collect information. He already knows everything and the book of Numbers tells us why we can trust Him when He speaks or writes,

God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Numbers 23:19 (NASB)

and,

. . . in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie . . . Hebrews 6:18 (NASB)

The Mystery Of God
God Wrote Scripture
2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that God wrote the Bible,

All Scripture is inspired by God . . . 2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)

The word “inspired” comes from a Greek word which means “God-breathed.” That is, God “breathed” the words that were to be written. He wrote all 66 books, all 1189 chapters and all 31,173 verses of the Bible. This is an easy task for an omnipotent, omniscient God. He is not like us – He does not grow tired (Isaiah 40:28), and He does not sleep (Psalm 121:4). He does not lie (Numbers 23:19)! That is why we can trust what He wrote.

The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting. Psalm 119:160 (NASB)

Proof Scripture is Written by God
How do we know the Bible was written by God? Several years ago, I asked a Christian friend why he believed the Bible was true. He told me that he knew God was real by the experiences he had and by how God had helped him. I told him the Hare Krishnas, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, members of the occult, Muslims and Hindus all believe their god is the true one because of their experiences. He had not thought about that. If experience is the test of truth, then are we all correct? If so, we have a problem. How do we then know that God is speaking to us in the Bible?

The answer is already given to us in the Bible. Listen to Deuteronomy 18:20-22,

But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (NASB)

Fulfilled prophecy is the signature that God has spoken in the Bible. The Bible is the only sacred book that contains future predictions that have come true. It is a very unique book with 737 prophecies recorded in about 8,500 verses. That is about 25% of the Bible. The prophecies occur in both the Old Testament and New Testament. The Old Testament prophets, the New Testament apostles, and Jesus Christ all made predictions about the future. They have all come true except for those which are yet future. The Bible is also a book of history whose facts are continuously being proven to be true with many archaeological findings. The Bible is accurate when it speaks to history. When it makes predictions, they come true. It is Truth.

The Signature of God
Mystery of Dual Authorship
God did not write the Bible as we do a letter. He used two authors.

. . . for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Peter 1:21 (NASB)

This verse tells us that God the Holy Spirit “moved” human authors to write the Bible. The Greek word for “moved” comes from the root word phero which means “to carry,” “to bring” or “to bring along.” This means the Holy Spirit “brought” men along. He caused men to write what He wanted them to write. The different books of the Bible had different authors who used their own style, language and grammar, but the Holy Spirit “carried” them in their writing. What they wrote was what the Holy Spirit wanted to be written. Here is an example,

You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: “‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?” Acts 4:25 (NIV)

Who spoke through David? The answer is the Holy Spirit! At the end of one book the apostle Paul wrote, we are given a hint that the influence of the Holy Spirit on the writer was at times hard to detect,

. . . and I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (NASB)

Paul appears to not be sure. In his other books he does not make this comment. This is remarkable because it implies on the other occasions he knew the Holy Spirit was guiding him, but this time he was not completely sure. The Holy Spirit did not dictate the message, but yet He was guiding the apostle. Who were the authors? The answer is both men and the Holy Spirit.

Books of the Bible
Some have wondered if any books in the Bible do not belong and if any are missing. The answer to our question comes to us directly from Jesus Christ Himself.

Old Testament
At the time of Jesus’ life, the only scriptures that existed were the Jewish scriptures – the Tanakh. Jesus quoted from them. He taught them. He believed them. Here is an example. Jesus is speaking,

You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me . . . John 5:39 (NASB)

He also considered them to be authoritative and lasting,

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)

Notice that Jesus refers to the Law and the Prophets. These are two sections of the Jewish scriptures called the Tanakh. The Tanakh was the Jewish version of the Old Testament scriptures that existed at the time of Christ. It still exists today. The Tanakh was divided into three sections: The Law, The Prophets and the Writings. Jesus clearly recognized it as being authoritative. Near the end of the gospel of Luke, Jesus made a significant statement about the scriptures. He endorsed the entire Tanakh. That is, He endorsed The Law, The Writings and then He referred to the Psalms, which is the largest book in The Writings.

Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:44 (NASB)

In Luke Jesus refers to the prophets being murdered from Abel to Zechariah.

. . . from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation. Luke 11:51 (NASB)

When Jesus did this, He once again endorsed the entire Tanakh or the Old Testament scriptures as we know them. Notice that Abel appeared in the book of Genesis which is the first book in The Law. Zechariah appears in the last book of The Writings, which is 2 Chronicles. That is, Jesus endorsed all of the Old Testament as we know it. Later in Luke 16:29, Jesus endorsed The Law and The Writings once again.

During His ministry, He also endorsed The Twelve or the minor prophets when He referred to Jonah being in the belly of a great sea monster and alluding to him being there three days and nights (Matt. 12:40-41). In short, Jesus recognized the Jewish scriptures from Genesis to Chronicles as real and authoritative.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have proven to modern critics that the Tanakh, as we know it today, has not changed since the time of Christ. In fact, the Dead Sea scrolls predate Christ by about by 100-15 0 years. So when He referred to The Law and The Prophets and The Writings, He referred to the Tanakh as we have it in A.D. 2020.



The Tanakh
New Testament
Many are under the impression that there was a great debate about which books should be included in the New Testament. The truth is the apostles affirmed and confirmed the contents of the New Testament during their lifetime. The great church debates were largely attempts to remove certain books or challenges to the inspiration of certain books. This is common in our culture today, even among many Christians.

If we look carefully at the New Testament, we discover that the apostles were actively reading and determining which writings were authoritative. Maybe the most significant statement about the New Testament actually comes from Jesus,

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. John 16:13 (NASB)

Here Jesus tells the apostles that the Holy Spirit will guide them into truth: that is, He will reveal truth to them. This was required since Jesus wanted His church to be built on the apostles,

. . . having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone . . . Ephesians 2:20 (NASB)

So Jesus endorses His apostles through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. As the years elapsed, the apostles wrote the majority (81%) of the New Testament and their companions and Jesus’ brothers wrote the balance. It must have been a surprise to them to discover that Paul the apostle would write just about half of the books!

The New Testament reveals that the writings of the apostles and others were passed around for all to read (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27). The apostle Peter reveals that the letters were reviewed and evaluated as to whether they were inspired. Peter reviewed Paul’s writing. Listen to this,

. . . just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16 (NASB)

That is, Peter considered Paul’s letters to be scripture (“the rest of the scriptures”). So Peter endorsed Paul and Paul endorsed Luke when he writes,

For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 1 Timothy 5:18 (NASB)

Human Authors Of The New Testament
The first part of that quote is from Deuteronomy 25:4 from the sacred scriptures. The second part is from a passage which is found only in Luke 10:7. Now notice that Paul refers to both as scripture. Paul considered the writings of Luke to be equal to that found in Deuteronomy.

How did the apostles know about Matthew, Mark, Luke or Paul’s letters? Romans 16:22; 1 Corinthians 5:9; Colossians 4:16 and 1 Thessalonians 5:27 all reveal that the writings of the New Testament authors were distributed for all to read. In summary, the New Testament documents were actively being evaluated regarding their inspiration.

Summary Of The Moratorian Fragment
The earliest list of all of the New Testament books is found in a manuscript called the Muratorian fragment (A.D. 150-170). It is damaged. That is why it is called a fragment. The beginning has been torn off and references to some books are missing. The author of the document gave a running account of the development of the New Testament. In the document, all of the New Testament books are listed except for Matthew, Mark, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter and 3 John. Matthew and Mark are probably missing due to the tear since the author of the Muratorian refers to the “third book of the gospel.” So only Hebrews, 1 & 2 Peter and 3 John are missing from the list. Were they part of a torn piece too? We do not know. It should be noted that the “missing” books were already recognized by other authors. The Epistle of Barnabas, which was written by Clement of Rome (A.D. 70-79), quotes Matthew and alludes to 2 Peter.[1] In A.D. 95-97, Clement of Rome quotes a number of books, including Matthew, Mark, Hebrews and 1 Peter as being authoritative.[2] Ignatius (A.D. 110-117) also quotes a large variety of books including Matthew, Mark, James and 1 Peter.[3] The Muratorian Fragment includes other books but clearly states they were not received. This reveals that the books of the New Testament were recognized very early.

The New Testament was written by the apostles who were equal to the Old Testament prophets (Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 3:2). Both were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what God wanted written. The New Testament is endorsed by fulfilled prophecy and by the apostles. The apostle John was the last apostle alive when he wrote his smaller epistles and Revelation. By this time the New Testament books had been identified and endorsed.

It is wrongly believed that the books of the New Testament were not identified until the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325). But the discussion above demonstrates that the contents of the New Testament were already known near the death of the Apostle John (A.D. 100-110). Since it is obvious that the apostles were identifying which books were scripture, the Apostle John wrote the last book. Subsequently, the inspiration of some of the books was challenged and defended by the early church councils.

Variants In The New Testament Manuscripts
Copyists’ Errors in the Bible
The original manuscripts written by the prophets and the apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit were without error. We call these original documents the autographs. Over time, these autographs were copied. They copied them by handwriting. Consequently, Wallace states in his book, published in 2011, that the number of Greek manuscripts was about 5,600. Both Wallace and Hixson and Gurry state that some manuscripts are duplicates so that leaves us with only 5,100 unique copies.[4] There are approximately 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and altogether there are about 20,000 manuscripts in various languages, including Greek.[5]

Since these manuscripts were copied, errors were made in the copying process. Subsequently, as the documents were copied, errors were introduced over time. Some errors are “nonsensical errors,”[6] and other errors were variations in words, missing words, added words, or grammatical errors.[7] When scholars try to determine the actual reading of the original documents, they do not know which variation is an error or which is the correct reading. So, these variations are called variants. Variants are not necessarily an error, they are just differences between manuscripts.

Some intentional changes were made by the human copiers in an attempt to clarify the meaning of a passage. In a few rare cases, it is clear someone tried to change the meaning to reflect a doctrinal opinion.

What is a Variant?
Daniel Wallace states, “A variant is simply the difference in wording found in a single manuscript or a group of manuscripts (either way, it’s still only one variant) that disagrees with a base text.”[8]

Let us illustrate! The chart of four manuscripts from John 3:16 is an example of four actual Greek manuscripts. Let us assume that we select the first line (manuscript B) to be the baseline manuscript and compare the other manuscripts against it. Then, as you examine the chart, you will discover that the fourth manuscript has three variations or three variants compared to the baseline manuscript (the first line). That is, two words are different and one word has been added in the fourth manuscript. In this simple example, these variations would be called three variants. If we found two more variations in either the second or third manuscripts, that would result in three more variants, for a total of five variants. If we included more manuscripts and continued the process, the number of variants would grow. That is what is happening every year as more manuscripts are being discovered.

At first, this would appear to be a problem for the modern day reader. You may be asking how accurate is the Bible? How many variants are there in the Bible?

Old Testament Variants
The Old Testament copies have very few variants since the Jewish rabbis had very strict rules about copying accuracy. In fact, the rabbis would destroy copies if there were too many errors. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was a major event. It provided Biblical scholars with proof that the Old Testament contained 39 books and provided thousands of manuscript fragments. Prior to that, the Christian community had only three partial copies and one complete copy. With recent discoveries of Aramaic cursive copies, we now have copies dating from 250 B.C. By comparing all of these Old Testament copies, differences between the documents have been identified. These differences are called variants. There are very few variants in the Old Testament compared to the New Testament. Of the Old Testament variants, only sixteen are of any significance.

New Testament Variants
The number of New Testament variants are increasing as new ancient manuscripts of the books of the New Testament are found.[9] Consequently, authors once reported that the number of New Testament variants were 200,000. That was accurate at the time of their publication. But when Daniel Wallace published his book in 2011, he estimated the number of variants to be somewhere between 300,000 to 400,000.[10] When Hixson and Gurry published their book, they estimated the number to be approximately 500,000 variants.[11]

Criteria For Selecting Ancient Bible Manuscripts
How is the Original Text Recovered?
Remember that a variant is any difference between manuscripts. Before we go further, we need to know how the various manuscripts are used to determine how the Bible should read. Linguistic scholars start by selecting a group of the higher quality manuscripts to determine how the Bible should read. Criteria are used to determine which manuscripts are more trustworthy. For example, older manuscripts are considered to be more reliable since they should be less subject to additions. Later manuscripts tend to have multiple additions and copying errors. Linguistic scholars apply these rules to a set of manuscripts to select a set of manuscripts which are used to compile or construct an “accurate” Greek text of the Bible. This compiled text is called an apparatus. The linguistic scholars then identify every spelling error, every letter and word that is omitted, every vowel that is wrong and even grammatical errors.

Manuscript Variants From John 3:16
How Accurate is the Bible?
Let’s consider another example. Hixson and Gurry stated at the time their book was published that there are 1,659 manuscript variants in John 18. Among those manuscripts there were 3,058 variants. That means there is one variant for every 434 words.[12] This translates to a Bible that is 99.8% accurate.[13] Then they state that,

How many of these [variants] deserve the notice of typical English Bible readers? Based on the major modern translations, the answer is zero. Not a single note about any variant in John 18 is to be found in the ESV, NIV, NRSV, or even the richly foot­noted NET. The translators of these versions are right in this since all of the major variants in John 18 are easily resolved, do not significantly affect the meaning, or both.[14]

They also state that they agree with Daniel Wallace that some minor changes in meaning in a few places in the New Testament may be affected, but no core Christian doctrines are affected.[15] The Bible is really unique. The Bible is very accurate! The Bible very accurately reflects what the prophets and the apostles wrote.

Steps In Creating A Bible
Today’s English Bibles
We have been describing the creation of an apparatus, which is a compilation of high quality Greek documents to determine how the New Testament should read. The question we need to ask now is, “How accurate are the English translations when compared to the apparatus of the Old and New Testaments?” Note that the Old Testament has a Hebrew and Aramaic apparatus and the New Testament has a Greek apparatus. The accuracy of the English translations depends on which translation we are talking about.

Each translation team has a philosophy that is employed in the translation process. Some Bibles try to be more literal while others seek to be more dynamic. That is, the translation tends to explain the passage and, consequently, some are like a commentary. For the serious student who does not know Hebrew and Greek but wants to know how the original Hebrew and Greek reads, a more literal translation is recommended. For these students the Legacy Standard Bible (LSB) is currently the best Bible for serious Bible study. Next is the New King James Version (NKJV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB) and then the English Standard Version Bible (ESV). For Bible study you want a Bible that is as close to the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek manuscripts as possible. The LSB, NKJV, NASB and ESV do that.

The NIV, New Living Translation (NLT), Message and Amplified Bibles are great Bibles for easy reading, but these are not recommended for Bible study. Here are some examples as to why they should be avoided.

English Bibles vs Greek Example
In order to explain, we will start with a passage from the New Testament and then compare the English translations to the Greek text. The scripture that appears below the name of each Bible is Acts 14:23.

First, we present a literal translation of the N27 apparatus. An apparatus is the base Greek text that results from combining a set of the best manuscripts. Then this Greek text of the New Testament is translated into an English or a Spanish Bible, for example. The NA27 Greek Apparatus is the latest version."


https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-studies/topical-bible-studies/how-accurate-is-the-bible/
(Edited by Blackshoes)
1 year ago Report
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zeffur
zeffur: Amen.
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zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

re: "harpalycus47: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"

Evil is caused by immoral misconduct. God has given beings the free will to produce good or evil. Some of them produce evil by their thoughts, words, & deeds. While we are on earth, the solution to evil is within our power to do what is morally good & right. Mankind wanted the knowledge of good & evil & they got it by disobeying God & eating the forbidden fruit--which caused their utopia to be changed, so that they would experience the extent of good & evil & use their free will & God's moral guidance to decide how much of each that they would produce.

re: "Then he is impotent."

That ^^ is illogical as God is omnipotent.

re: "Is he able but not willing?"

God created a system in which mankind is exposed to moral law, imperfection, death, & God's judgment & justice. It's all design decisions that beings are forced to experience to prove what they truly want--which will be used to judge them in the end.

re: "Then he is malevolent."

That ^^ is absurd. God is proofing which beings are worthy of everlasting life & which are not--based on their own decisions, words, & deeds. The correct sentence is "God is omnipotent & perfect". The proof is for the official record & for THEIR understanding--God already knows which of them will be saved & which will be forsaken.

re: "Is he both able and willing?"

God is able & willing to create exactly what He has decided to create to sort the wheat from the chaff!

re: "Whence then is evil? Epicurus."

The cause of evil is disobedience that leads to increasing separation from God's perfect will for all beings. Some people disobey so much & become so separated from God's perfect will for them that they reach a state of bad that we call 'evil'. This isn't rocket science. Atheidiots refuse to accept this reality because they hate God/religion & don't want others to know the truth about how evil comes to be.

re: "Written nearly two and a half millennia ago, this has still not seemingly been answered."

Ignored by atheidiots it will never be understood by them for eternity...

re: "I would not use the word evil, which has connotations both of agency and theology, but the more general term suffering."

Suffering is a consequence of disobedience & separation from God. All humans will eventually die as that is what they have earned from having disobeyed God. The wages of sin is death. It has been known from the beginning before Adam & Eve sinned.

re: "I have never come across an answer that even approaches credibility, but it is an extremely important question that needs to be explored.. Any offers?"

Actually, that ^^ is another one of your lies. I have already clearly explained this to you multiple times. You reject it because you do not want it to be true because you understand the consequence of the truth that you are foolishly attempting to evade in vain.
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zeffur
zeffur: Evidence FOR the Existence of God & AGAINST the Stupidity of Atheidiots:
--------
1. Nature has NO INTELLIGENCE OR CAPABILITY TO ORIGINATE LIFE/DNA & the lifeforms that depend on it--hence ABIOGENESIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! That fact is indisputable as there exists NO PROOF & NO SOUND CASE to the contrary--just the imaginary stupid, dishonest, & wishful beliefs of irrational atheists & other nitwits...

2. Bio-Evolution is a proven 100% indefensible lie & fraud! There is no proof of any existing microbe that all life originate from & there is no proof that evolution has EVER occurred. The complexity of life & stability of living genomes defies natural origination & evolution--which is an obvious sign that naturalism & materialism (i.e. evolution) are false regarding the origin & evolution of life.

3. The Bible is a historical record of God's interactions with humanity for millennia & God's explanation for how the universe & life came into existence. It is also THE ONLY RATIONAL EXPLANATION for how life came to exist on earth. Mankind has documented many experiences with God (past & present) & known for MILLENNIA that God created the universe & everything in it -- INCLUDING & ESPECIALLY all life on earth. There are authentic sacred texts that describe the experiences of humanity with God for thousands of years. There has also continuously been people alive who have continued to believe in & follow God's Word for thousands of years--& countless stories of their experiences with God/Jesus/angels/saints, etc. Billions of people on earth also obviously believe & have faith in God. Atheidiots have NO ability to honestly refute ANY of those documented & well-known facts!

4. The entire universe & ALL LIFE is evidence of God's creative work!

5. The fine-tuning of the universe & our planet aren't just a coincidence. Without such fine-tuning matter would have never formed. Without such find-tuning our earth would be too hot/cold. Without our molten core & magnetosphere, there would be no atmosphere, no plant life, no animal life, & very likely little to no water to sustain any other kind of life on earth.

6. ExtraBiblical evidence exists that proves God/Jesus Christ existed when The Bible specifies that He existed. Christianity would NOT exist if Jesus Christ was not resurrected from the dead as He had prophesied before His death. None of His followers would have witnessed to others the things that they witnessed had Jesus been a fraud.

7. Fulfilled Biblical prophesies prove God is real.

8. Archaeological evidence exists that confirms Biblical facts are true & accurate.

9. DNA contains encoded information for life. The information are the functions of life that are chemically encoded into the molecules of DNA. The micromachines within each cell are the decoders of that information & the assemblers of functional life components. All codes require intelligence to create, encode, & decode them. That intelligence came from God according to The Bible & there is NO other rational explanation otherwise, as evolution is a 100% lie & fraud that has no proof & no sound case to substantiate/justify that it has ever occurred.

To assert that God does not exist is not just extremely dumb/stupid--it is a deliberate bold-faced lie. People who deny the evidence for God's existence are corrupt, dumb/stupid, irrational, delusional, & dishonest. You can certainly call them blind too, if you wish; but, they are blind because of their own chosen corruptions. The truth is that they have irrationally rejected God & they prefer the proven 100% indefensible lie & fraud of evolution that predisposes/biases them to reject all evidence of God's existence--which causes them to troll forums like this one & which will ultimately lead to them being forsaken in the end.

They know that there is no evidence & no sound reason to believe that any organism/s crawled out of the sea & evolved lungs, legs, wings, feathers, etc. They also know evolution is unproven, unprovable, unscientific, & patently absurd--yet they insanely accept & promote it as truth as an alternative explanation for life on earth because they hate God/religion & they wish to deceive as many people as possible to believe in their obvious lies. Some of them even go as far as to pretend gravity & wind aren't real--when in fact both are demonstratively real & they refuse to admit & foolishly posture that God does not exist by using foolish false dilemmas like Euthyphro's dilemma to try to deceive people, & some of them even deny that people have a conscience, free will, & a Spirit/Soul. Some of them also lie that there is no/little evidence for the existence of God as another deceptive technique. Such people are sad/pathetic liars & obviously not trustworthy at all.

Evolution is unproven, unprovable, unscientific (unobservable, unpredictable, untestable), imaginary, indefensible, & an incredibly absurd belief that is not believable & not acceptable to any sane, honest, rational, well-informed, & intelligent person. It is nothing but a pseudoscientific myth / fairy tale for atheists & other nitwits to believe in because they have foolishly rejected the obvious reality that God exists.

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13

They have NO excuse! "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." Rom 1:20-25 KJV
_________
If all of that ^^ isn't enough for the dumb/stupid/dishonest/delusional types, then below is another list:

"1. The theory of spontaneous generation (living organisms arising from non-living substances) has been scientifically disproven since the 1800s. Louis Pasteur proved that life only comes from life—this is the law of biogenesis. “Chemical Evolution” is just another way of saying “spontaneous generation”—life comes from non life. Evolution is therefore built on a fallacy science long ago proved to be impossible.

2. Not only has spontaneous generation been disproved, but everything evolving from nothing already contradicts five proven scientific laws - the Law of Cause and Effect, the Law of Conservation of Energy/Mass, the Law of Increasing Entropy, the Laws of Universal Information, and the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution is not science!

3. Evolutionists attempt to distance their theory from abiogenesis (origin of life), by completely ignoring it. This doesn't achieve anything, because the fact still remains that simple chemicals could not react to form the first cell! Therefore, they ignore it, since evolution wouldn't exist without abiogenesis.

4. If “evolution” was happening right now, there would be millions of creatures out there with partially developed features and organs. But instead there are none.

5. If the theory of evolution was true, we should have discovered eight billion bodies (at the very least) and numerous artifacts of stone age skeletons - considering they've been around for the supposed 185,000 years. Instead, there are only a few thousand.

6. If the theory of evolution was true, the world’s population would be 1 in 10^100! Instead, the world’s population is only around 7.9 billion.

7. Nobody has ever observed macro evolution take place in the laboratory or in nature. In other words, nobody has ever observed one kind of creature turn into another kind of creature. The entire theory of evolution is based on blind faith.

8. Back in Darwin’s day, scientists didn’t know what type or quantity of information was embedded within the cell. Cells appeared to be little unsophisticated globs of jello, mysterious little parts of life that no one could see into. Just simple cells. But now that we have the ability to peer into cells with electron microscopes, we see that life down at the cellular level is immeasurably more complex than Darwin ever dreamed. The odds of even a single cell “assembling itself” by chance are so low that they aren’t even worth talking about. (See: Fine-Tuning & Complexity of Life: Ultimate Proof) Evolutionists admit that the chances of evolutionary progress are extremely low. Yet, they believe that given enough time, the apparently impossible becomes possible.

9. If the theory of evolution was true, we should have discovered millions upon millions of transitional fossils that show the development of one species into another species. Instead, we have zero.

10. If the theory of evolution was true, we should not see a sudden explosion of fully formed complex life in the fossil record. Instead, that is precisely what we find.

11. If the theory of evolution was true, there would not be evolution frauds - because there would be evidence. Instead, evolution history is full of deliberate frauds. (See: Evolution Frauds: Top 10) The worst thing is that these frauds are still printed in some of today's school science text books with full knowledge that they are wrong!

12. The 2nd law of thermodynamics disproves evolution. The universe is slowing down to a lower state, not higher. Order will always move naturally towards disorder or chaos. Complex live organisms cannot rearrange themselves into an organism of a higher form as claimed by evolutionists. This is scientifically backwards to this law, which has never been proven wrong.

13. Their dating methods are useless, and inaccurate. They do not work on known ages, but are assumed to work on unknown ages. There are many examples of living animals dating back millions of years, volcanic eruptions from a few hundred years ago dating over hundreds of thousands of years... See here: https://www.christianevidence.net/2017/11/evolutions-radiometric-dating-methods_32.html If dating fails to get an accurate age on a known age, then how can it be trusted to give us the correct age for rocks that had no human observers to record when they formed? Without their dating methods, all that evolutionists use is circular reasoning - the rocks are dated by the fossils and the fossils are dated by the rocks!

14. If the theory of evolution was true, we should see many people who live in relatively unpolluted areas living to be 200 to 300 years old. Instead, the vast majority of us die between the ages of 40 and 80, no matter where we live or what we eat.

15. Too many questions and no answers. Especially when it comes to the order in which things evolve, which is clearly impossible. For example: What do you think evolved first? Hearts, blood or veins? This question is a dilemma for the atheist. If they say; the hearts, then; What did they do? What did they pump? Maybe blood evolved first. If so, what did it do? Where did it go? How did it get there? Well, maybe veins evolved first. But what did they do? What did they carry? What were they connected to? There are hundreds of these questions which evolutionists just ignore."

The FACT is that bio-evolution is a complete absurdity from every perspective & it has NO proof & NO sound case that it has ever occurred. It's also promoted by confused, illogical, delusional, & dishonest people who are desperate for nitwits to believe their unproven, unprovable, & indefensible: assumptions, opinions, stories, & claims. They also offer NO proven facts for their claims that substantiate ANY of their claims as valid/true!

Anyone who believes ANYTHING about bio-evolution just a confused, lost, & gullible nitwit!

https://www.christianevidence.net/2017/11/15-reasons-why-evolution-is-fairy-tale.html
(Edited by zeffur)
1 year ago Report
2
Angry Beaver
(Post deleted by Blackshoes 1 year ago)
zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

re: "harpalycus47: Does having freewill entail making the wrong decision."

zeffur: Some people make wrong decisions in their lives. That's their fault--not God's fault. They know as well as anyone else what is right & what is wrong morally. It's not a mystery.

re: "If I have freewill and know, without any doubt what the right action to take is, and I also know, without any doubt that making the wrong decision will lead to incredible pain and suffering of billions and billions of others and untold numbers of sentient beings and will lead to an eternity of torment for myself, but the right decision will result in an eternity of joy and happiness, not only for myself but for everyone, then what decision would I make?"

zeffur: "Would" refers to YOUR will. What decision would YOU make? You get to decide--but, I seriously doubt whatever decision that you make will affect billions of people.

re: "harpalycus47: Why haven't you answered the simple question, Zeffur?"

zeffur: The answer to YOUR question is dependent upon what YOU will decide--not me. I don't make decisions for you--you do!

re: "harpalycus47: It's what's called a hypothetical question. Your avoidance will fool no-one.
What is the answer to the question?"

zeffur: Then ask yourself why you decided as you did...

re: "harpalycus47: It's a HYPOTHETICAL question. Why have you not answered it?"

zeffur: I don't make decisions for anyone except for myself. Your hypothetical question is about what YOU would decide--not what I would decide--therefore, you should answer your own question & then state the reason/s why you made such a decision.

re: "harpalycus47: Yes Zeffur. You dare not answer the question. I get it."

zeffur: I could answer it for myself--but, I cannot answer it for you. Some of your decisions in life are not rational. Why would anyone reject God? It's completely irrational--yet, that is what your type have decided to do. How do you rationalize that decision??

re: "harpalycus47: So, if I'm not rational, why is that? Did I choose to be irrational?"

zeffur: Only you can answer that question. How do you rationalize your rejection of a perfect God??

re: "harpalycus47: OK, I'll answer the last one. I never chose to be irrational. So why am I irrational?"

zeffur: Of course you chose to be irrational. Why does a smoker smoke cigarettes? It's not like s/he doesn't understand the consequence of smoking.

re: "harpalycus47: Wouldn't it be irrational to choose to be irrational, Zeffur?"

zeffur: Rejecting God will result in your loss of eternal life in God's kingdom. That's not rational.

re: "harpalycus47: That's not an answer."

zeffur: It is an answer. You asked me why such a decision is irrational & I explained why it is irrational. How is that not an answer??

re: "harpalycus47: No I asked if it would be irrational to choose to be irrational. Yes or no."

zeffur: No you didn't. You reject God & the consequence is loss of eternal life in God's kingdom. That is an irrational decision. Now the question is why would you make such an irrational decision if you claim that you never make irrational decisions?

re: "harpalycus47: No. The question is there for all to see. Wouldn't it be irrational to choose to be irrational, Zeffur?"

re: "harpalycus47: btw I haven't claimed I never make an irrational decision. Please check for yourself."

zeffur: Follow the bouncing ball properly:

"zeffur: I could answer it for myself--but, I cannot answer it for you.
Some of your decisions in life are not rational. Why would anyone reject God? It's completely irrational--yet, that is what your type have decided to do.

How do you rationalize that decision??"

re: "harpalycus47: So, if I'm not rational, why is that? Did I choose to be irrational?"

zeffur: Only you can answer that question. How do you rationalize your rejection of a perfect God??

re: "harpalycus47: OK, I'll answer the last one. I never chose to be irrational. So why am I irrational?"

zeffur: Of course you chose to be irrational. Why does a smoker smoke cigarettes? It's not like s/he doesn't understand the consequence of smoking.

re: "harpalycus47: What's that got to do with it. The question is wouldn't it be irrational to choose to be irrational, Zeffur?"

zeffur: That's not the question that I asked you. I asked you why you choose to reject a perfect God. "zeffur: Only you can answer that question. How do you rationalize your rejection of a perfect God??"

You avoided answering that question, then later falsely claimed that you always make rational decisions.

re: "harpalycus47: ...I never chose to be irrational. So why am I irrational? Wouldn't it be irrational to choose to be irrational?"

re: "harpalycus47: Zeffur, saying 'I never chose to be irrational' does not mean 'I always make rational decisions'

re: "harpalycus47: Now, do I put you down as 'won't answer the question' or 'can't answer the question'."

zeffur: Ordinarily, choosing to be irrational is irrational by definition. There is however a possible scenario in which you could rationally decide to be irrational by telling a crazy person what he wants to hear even when you know it is irrational (e.g. being force by threat of blowing your brains out with a pistol, if you didn't say that he is the king of the USA).

re: "harpalycus47: That wasn't in the question. So you agree that it would be irrational to choose to be irrational. In which case being irrational isn't a choice, so why am I irrational?

zeffur: Now answer my quesiton "How do you rationalize your rejection of a perfect God??"

re: "harpalycus47: There isn't a perfect God to reject. Now explain how I can make an irrational decision if I am rational."

zeffur: it doesn't matter if it was in the question or not, you could rationally decide to be irrational--there is a logical scenario in which it is logically valid.

re: "being irrational isn't a choice"

That ^^ is bad/faulty logic. People have the free will to decide to be irrational & actually are often irrational by choice--it happens every day. Smokers & atheists are a perfect examples.

zeffur: Now answer my quesiton "How do you rationalize your rejection of a perfect God??"

re: "harpalycus47: It is a thought experiment, Zeffur. The parameters are fixed. You cannot introduce extraneous conditions. Let me make the parameters clear. I will change the subject to prevent further 'misunderstanding' You are a perfect being in a perfect world possessed of perfect relevant knowledge. In what possible way could you make an irrational choice?"

zeffur: Your logic is faulty. People make irrational decisions every day. People are created Spiritually perfect, but they do not remain Spiritually perfect. That is a reality. Your thinking is not logical. Only God is ALWAYS perfect.

re: "harpalycus47: Not in a perfect world they don't. Unless you can explain how.

zeffur: Your logic is faulty. People make irrational decisions every day. People are created Spiritually perfect, but they do not remain Spiritually perfect. That is a reality. Your thinking is not logical. Only God is ALWAYS perfect.

re: "harpalycus47: Not in a rational world, Zeffur. If you disagree explain how this could happen"

zeffur: Now answer my quesiton "How do you rationalize your rejection of a perfect God??"

zeffur: Stop avoiding answering my question!

re: "harpalycus47: I've answered it. There is no perfect god."

zeffur: There is a perfect God & mankind has known about Him for millennia.

re: "harpalycus47: So, how can you make an irrational decision in a perfect world Zeffur."

zeffur: Nature has no intelligence or capability to originate life/DNA & all the whole life forms that have existed on earth. We've studied nature for generations & that is a known & indisputable FACT!
That means abiogenesis & evolution are 100% false.

zeffur: We don't live in a perfect world. That's a unrealistic fantasy question.

re: "harpalycus47: Oh dear. Are you a bot, Zeffur?"

zeffur: Nature has no intelligence or capability to originate life/DNA & all the whole life forms that have existed on earth. We've studied nature for generations & that is a known & indisputable FACT!
That means abiogenesis & evolution are 100% false. An intelligence creator is necessary for life to exist--we've known about that creator for millennia.

re: "harpalycus47: Oh double dear, Zeffur. Had you not worked out that we are talking about the Garden of Eden? Really? Honestly?"

re: "harpalycus47: Interested to hear that the Garden of Eden is a fantasy, though."

zeffur: Opinions aren't facts. Can you disprove the garden of Eden & Adam & Eve existed??

re: "harpalycus47: Not trying to. How can you make an irrational decision in a perfect world?"

zeffur: How would a bunch of tent dwelling cattle herders millennia ago work out how the universe & all life was created, if they were not told about it by an intelligent being to document it??

re: "harpalycus47: I do wish you wouldn't edit your postings way after they have been answered."

re: "harpalycus47: Now answer the question or just tell me whether it is can't answer or won't answer."

zeffur: re: ""harpalycus47: How can you make an irrational decision in a perfect world?"

That question is irrelevant as it isn't based on reality--it's based on fantasy--there is no perfect world.

If you are referring to the utopia that God created for Adam & Eve, then the answer is that Adam & Eve had free will to decide for themselves whether they would disobey God & eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. Living in a utopia didn't mean they couldn't make the wrong decision & do what was forbidden.

re: "harpalycus47: Which of these is true then, Zeffur. The Garden of Eden was not perfect. Adam and Eve were not perfect. They were not given relevant perfect knowledge"

zeffur: The Garden of Eden was a perfect utopia created by God for Adam & Eve.
Adam & Eve were created perfect & provided with free will & the law about not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil & the knowledge of the consequence that doing so would cause them to die. No one knows for certain how long they lived there before they disobeyed God's law. Being created perfect does NOT mean they could not corrupt themselves by disobeying God, as I have already previous clearly stated to you in past discussions on this topic.

They were given all the knowledge that they needed to know not to disobey God & what the consequences would be if they disobeyed God. They were not ignorant of the law or the consequence of disobeying it.

re: "harpalycus47: So, exactly how, knowing it was wrong, knowing the consequences, being perfectly rational and, having been made by God, no flaws in their thinking, or inability to control emotions or whatever. Nothing that could interrupt their perfectly rational thought processes -HOW COULD THEY COME TO THE WRONG DECISION?????."

zeffur: Eve claimed the snake beguiled her & Adam blamed her for giving him the fruit to eat. Being created perfect doesn't mean they couldn't decide to make the wrong decision. Eve's error was in deciding it was more important to be more like God than it was to obey God. She chose a desire for mental power over obedience to God--which is no surprise as women are born weaker & have a tendency to always want more...

re: "harpalycus47: So, who put the snake in the Garden of Eden?"

re: "harpalycus47: And who made women weaker with a tendency to want more."

zeffur: God allowed it of course. How else could they be tested thoroughly?? God had already banished satan & his demon angels to the earth before Adam & Eve were created.

re: "harpalycus47: Why did God need to test them? Didn't he absolutely know everything about them? Or is God not omniscient??"

re: "harpalycus47: I just hope, for your sake, that no woman whom you know ever sees what you just wrote about women."

zeffur: For the same reason that all other beings are tested--that is his preferred method to record their decisions & actions during their lives as evidence of their conduct. God already knew whether they would succeed or fail--but they needed to be tested nevertheless for the record.

re: "harpalycus47: So, we'll go back to Satan. Wasn't he a perfect being in a perfect environment with perfect relevant knowledge as well?"

zeffur: I don't share your fear of women. Honest women know how women are...You can have all of the other dishonest women as they are of no importance to me.

re: "harpalycus47: And how did he get into the Garden. Didn't God think to have seraphim with burning swords guarding the entrance?"

re: "harpalycus47: You have got to be kidding me. The whole test that resulted in the eruption of Vesuvius, the Black Death, the Holocaust and so on ad infinitum was due to a bureaucratic requirement for record keeping, for an OMNISCIENT God.?"

zeffur: All beings that are created by God have free will. satan is no different, except that he was created more special than the other angels in certain ways. satan & his followers (other angels that are now referred to as demons or minions of satan) were booted out of heaven before Adam & Eve were created. But, satan was allowed to go to heaven for certain purposes--like in the case of Job.

re: "harpalycus47: And he already knew they would fail. So he must have made them in a condition to fail. This is getting worse and worse. You are now saying that THEY didn't fail, God made them fail."

zeffur: There was nothing preventing satan from entering into Eden--but, I suspect that he was prevented from doing anything he wanted to do to Adam & Eve before they became imperfect due to their disobedience.

re: "harpalycus47: The Adam and Eve that God deliberately created in a condition to fail. And then he blames them? And us, who had nothing to do with it?"

re: "harpalycus47: Exactly what kind of God do you worship???"

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: And he already knew they would fail. So he must have made them in a condition to fail."

All beings with free will can fail to disobey God--but, not all do. There are many angels that have never disobeyed God that are with God in heaven.

re: "This is getting worse and worse. You are now saying that THEY didn't fail, God made them fail."

No, I did not make that assertion. Your faulty thinking is trying to arrive at that false conclusion.

re: "harpalycus47: How can they fail if they are perfect? The only possible answer is that God made them imperfect. Or is God incapable of making something perfect? Which is it?"

re: "harpalycus47: Then show me how the conclusion is faulty."

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: Exactly what kind of God do you worship???"

There is only 1 true God that created the universe/cosmos & everything in it--including all life.
That God is the God of The Bible. There is no other true God or gods or demi-gods.

re: "harpalycus47: A God who makes perfect things that fail. A God who creates the Black death and tsunamis. A God who condemns others for the fault of two. A God who orders infinite torture for a finite fault then calls himself just"

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: How can they fail if they are perfect?"

I already explained that to you. Being created perfect & having free will gives them the ability to decide for themself to obey or disobey. Once they disobeyed, THEY MADE THEMSELVES IMPERFECT!

re: "The only possible answer is that God made them imperfect."

Wrong. That is faulty logic.

re: "Or is God incapable of making something perfect? Which is it?"

God made them perfect & THEY made themselves imperfect via their free will decision & action to disobey God. This isn't rocket science. It's basic, simple logic. Stop acting like you don't understand it.

re: "harpalycus47: And how, oh great logician, could they have MADE themselves imperfect by being imperfect and so making the wrong decision. I think we have a bit of a viciously circular argument here.
re: "harpalycus47: You have said it before, but you haven't explained it - it defies explanation."

re: "harpalycus47: Darwin's example was the ichneumon fly."

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: A God who makes perfect things that fail."

That's due to THEIR free will decisions & actions. God gave them that ability.

re: "harpalycus47: A God who creates the Black death and tsunamis."

That's all part of the consequences of having disobeyed God--they lost the utopia that God initially created for mankind.

re: "harpalycus47: A God who condemns others for the fault of two."

Another consequence of their disobedience is that they & all of their offspring will die due to their disobedience. Their own Spiritual salvation rests in their free will conduct (words & deeds).

re: "harpalycus47: A God who orders infinite torture for a finite fault then calls himself just"

It is just to forsake those who forsake God.

You seek to blame God for the disobedience of humanity. That is faulty thinking. Mankind's decisions & actions destroyed their utopia. God loved them still & established another method of salvation & reconciliation for them in His kingdom via Jesus' sacrifice, but some of them irrationally forsake that option & foolishly try to blame God. Worse still are those dishonest & irresponsible types who think they should be able to reject God & still gain salvation--which is completely asinine thinking.

re: "harpalycus47: A decision by a perfect being to fail means that that being can't be perfect. They made an imperfect choice."

re: "harpalycus47: I didn't destroy Utopia. Did you?"

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: And how, oh great logician, could they have MADE themselves imperfect by being imperfect and so making the wrong decision. I think we have a bit of a viciously circular argument here."

How do you make a perfect pair of pants imperfect? You soil or tear them. How is it that you can't understand something so basic??

re: "harpalycus47: A perfect being can't fail, by definition. So, it must have been God's decision to make them imperfect so they would fail"

re: "harpalycus47: Not if they were a perfect pair of pants that were perfectly stain resistant and perfectly impervious to damage."

re: "harpalycus47: How is it that you don't understand basic logic."

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: A decision by a perfect being to fail means that that being can't be perfect. They made an imperfect choice."

Wrong. I've already made it perfectly clear, that being made perfect & having free will doesn't mean a being will remain perfect--some of them can & do disobey & that makes them imperfect--just like destroying a perfect pair of pants becomes imperfect when you destroy them.

re: "harpalycus47: Being perfect does mean that they remain perfect.
'Here is an absolutely perfect machine. Nothing can ever go wrong with this machine as it is perfect. Oh, by the way, it usually breaks down after a couple of days.'"

re: "harpalycus47: You can only destroy a perfect pair of pants if that is part of their description. i.e. they are perfectly designed to be perfectly resistant to damage and wear until the end of the week.

re: "harpalycus47: You mean that God can't give you a guarantee about his creation? That he can't make something eternally perfect. What does that say about Heaven? Surely someone up there is going to make the wrong, imperfect decision and we'll be back to square one. Hey, that's some interesting theology you've got there."

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: A perfect being can't fail, by definition."

Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained to above. Created perfect with the free will ability to disobey God does not mean a being will remain perfect.

re: "So, it must have been God's decision to make them imperfect so they would fail"

Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained, God gave them free will & they disobeyed & they cause themselves to become imperfect & suffer the consequences that God stated would occur.

re: "Not if they were a perfect pair of pants that were perfectly stain resistant and perfectly impervious to damage."

Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained. Pants are created perfect & made imperfect by the people who cause damage to them.

re: "How is it that you don't understand basic logic."

I do. You do not or you are just using that illogical excuse because like the last time we had a dialog on this topic, you realized that you had nowhere to logically go, so you poison-pilled the discussion to attempt to avoid admitting your irrationality. That's a common atheist tactic.

re: "re: "harpalycus47: Not that it gets him off the hook. As sole creator he is totally responsible for all the flaws and faults in his creation and, man, did he mess up."

The reason for true free will is to give them the choice to decide what they will do. Being created perfect & living in a perfect utopia doesn't mean that they could not disobey the only law that God set for them. God didn't create them imperfect or cause them to make the wrong decisions---they decided for themselves, even knowing the consequences. They erred by believing the liar & not the creator because they wanted to be more like God than to obey God & retain life in a perfect utopia.

Your illogical notion that they were perfect & could not become imperfect is obviously wrong because God gave them the free will to decide for themselves whether they would obey/disobey--which resulted in them becoming imperfect when they made the disobeyed. This isn't complicated--you are just being illogical/dishonest.
(Edited by zeffur)
1 year ago Report
2
Angry Beaver
(Post deleted by Blackshoes 1 year ago)
zeffur
zeffur: Never underestimate the power of a black pot! lol imgur.com/gallery/Sghk5Bs
How many tries does it take to find the door opening? lol imgur.com/gallery/l3kv3Nh
1 year ago Report
0
Blackshoes
1 year ago Report
1
zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: You watch things like this and simply believe them. You never think to actually fact check." ref: Hell Explained: The Truth About Hell www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU7adZ2VOV0

Wrong again--as usual. I also did a word search on the Greek & Hebrew forms of "die" & "death" to verify what was said in the video.

re: "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matt 16;28:

That is a reference to the appearance of Jesus Christ in His glory on the Mount of Transfiguration which begins in the very next verse (17:1) in which Jesus Christ literally appeared in a glorified form for some of His disciples (i.e. Peter, James, and John) to witness.
It is also a foreshadowing of His 2nd coming, in which He will come in the glory of his Father with his angels to judge the living & the dead & to reward every man according to his works.

Another possible interpretation of Mat 16:28 is that those who have physically died are Spiritually asleep (i.e. not Spiritually dead) & await a future time when Jesus will return to wake them for Spiritual eternity & reward.

in either case, some things in The Bible are a mystery to us, as we know that Jesus has not yet returned for His 1000 year reign of peace as described in The Bible.

re: "As to the fact that it says in the bible that books were kept means nothing. The bible is an old book of legend and myth cobbled together from multiple sources."

You cannot prove that ^^ is true & there is more than enough reason to believe that The Bible is true as there is actual evidence that proves much of The Bible is in fact true.

re: "WHY are there books when God is the sole judge and knows everything to begin with!"

For the same reason that evidence is presented at a trial. To show the truth to the accused so that there is no doubt of the truth. God already knows the truth, so it is for the record--just like in a court.

re: "You were asked that and even accepted it in your answer – ‘You can hear about why…’ But there is no reason for them given. It is simply stated that ‘the books were open etc’. That is a DESCRIPTION not an EXPLANATION. Why don’t you take the trouble to actually check things."

The real question is why do you atheidiots engage in selective amnesia? I already addressed that question pages ago. "zeffur: For the official record. He already knows which of them will succeed & which will fail. The record is for proof on judgment day for those that fail." src: Topic: Religion

re: "your previous post contained your usual claim that nature ‘has no intelligence or capability to originate life/DNA & all the whole life forms on earth’ It has no relevance to the subject at all."

That ^^ is absurd. The relevance is that we KNOW from generations of studying nature that 'nature has no intelligence or capability to originate life/DNA & all the whole life forms on earth' AND we have known for millennia that God exists & that He claims to have created the universe & all life--which makes much more sense than your absurd & obviously irrationally contrived beliefs in abiogenesis & evolution. Thus, abiogenesis & evolution are false--which is also known because there is ZERO proof & no sound case that can establish that either of them have EVER occurred.

re: "Your response is interesting. You say that it is 100% consistent with your position, which is true as it is, indeed, nonsensical (if you disagree, PROVE a negative - that nature cannot originate life) but does not, as usual, address my point that you were just spouting anything."

You are wrong, of course. Just like we know that the earth does not orbit a binary star system, we know that 'nature has no intelligence or capability to originate life/DNA & all the whole life forms on earth'. That knowledge is from generations of people studying nature. What is your proof that nature originated & evolved life?? You have none OBVIOUSLY & that is the reason that no sane, honest, rational, well-informed & intelligent person should accept such an obviously indefensible claim/assertion.

re: "BTW You yourself said ‘to pretend that evolution is valid/true when there is no proof or any sound case to substantiate it has ever occurred is also to delude oneself with rubbish fantasies.’ In which case if we insert ‘to deny abiogenesis’ in the place of ‘evolution’ you have shown by your own words that you are deluding yourself with rubbish fantasies."

Abiogenesis & evolution are only indefensible beliefs that atheidiots & other nitwits can accept. There is no proof or sound case that can establish that either of them have ever occurred. To believe in such indefensible notions is irrational & delusional. Your delusional type promote the imaginary & indefensible absurdity of evolution as a fact---that is NOT based on reality--it is based on biased, bogus, & indefensible assumptions, opinions, & beliefs--not proven facts, hence the reason for their sound rejection.

Informed Christians on the other hand, use sound reasoning that is based on generations studying nature & honestly arriving the sound conclusion that 'nature has no intelligence or capability to originate life/DNA & all the whole life forms on earth' AND the knowledge that we have had for millennia that allows us to know that God exists & that He provided the necessary intelligence & power to create the universe & all life. That is the sound basis for biogenesis that we KNOW is actually how ALL life on earth functions.

You are certainly free to continue to delude yourself with irrational & indefensible rubbish, but the rest of us know better based on actual facts & sound reasoning.
(Edited by zeffur)
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Blackshoes
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes:
"5 Reasons Why Atheism is Foolish



Psalms 14:1 NKJV – The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.

If a person doesn’t believe in God, the Bible says that such a person is a fool.
It doesn’t matter how educated the atheist might be; whether he/she has a degree in rocket science or if he/she has all the science degrees known to man – if such a person does not believe in God – the word of God classifies that person as a foolish person.
Now, why would even the most educated atheist be seen as a fool or be viewed as being unwise for not believing in God? Below are various reasons why the word of God is 100% true and correct according to Psalms 14:1 when it states that atheism is foolish.



5 FOOLISH THINGS THAT ATHEISTS BELIEVE

1. Atheist Don’t Appreciate That Every Design Has A Designer
Recently I was researching to find out as to what were some of the most complex or complicated machines or devices that man has ever built to date.
One of these complex machines that peaked my interest was the Airbus A380. In order to build just ONE Airbus A380 this single aircraft requires about 4 million parts, with 2.5 million part numbers produced by 1500 companies from 30 countries around the world.
However my most favourite complex machine is the Large Hadron Collider. It is the most expensive and complex machine ever built. The LHC was built in collaboration with over 10,000 scientists and engineers from over 100 countries, as well as hundreds of universities & laboratories. The LHC is the largest single machine in the world which lies in a tunnel 27 kilometres (17mi) in circumference, as deep as 175 metres (574ft) beneath the Franco-Swiss border near Geneva, Switzerland.
The majority of people, myself included, probably do not know or understand the precise complexities or the effort of the intelligent people and minds that had to work together in order to design & build such massive & complex machinery.
The Airbus A380 was intelligently & deliberately designed by intelligent minds & each of the 4 million parts that make that aircraft have a specific purpose in the make-up & design of that plane.
The LHC too – as complex as it is, was intelligently & deliberately designed through the cooperation of over 10,000 intelligent minds who come from over 100 countries.
Now – if we were to use the same thought process or the same thought pattern that the atheist uses in relation to creation, it would be very easy to understand why atheism is extremely foolish and why atheists are regarded as being fools by God. Somehow, the atheist cannot appreciate the complexity but yet harmonious aspects of nature or the universe and come to the conclusion that there is a vastly superior Being behind creation. They cannot appreciate just the complexity and wonders of the human body but yet foolishly come to a poor conclusion that the human body and human existence as a result is just one big accident.
Albert Einstein was quoted as saying “The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in a position of the little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws but we understand the laws only dimly”
Genesis 1:1 NKJV – In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

lhc

2. Atheists Think Accidents Can Create Complex & Harmonious Systems & Life-forms
CS Lewis, a former atheist said the following: “If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our thought processes are mere accidents, the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts, i.e, of Materialism and Astronomy are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true. I see no reason for believing that one accident should be to give a correct account of all the other accidents”.
If I can paraphrase CS Lewis’ statement I would say this: It is utter & absolute foolishness to believe that a series of accidents can create a harmonious circumstance. Accidents do not create harmony. Noise does not create music; Fire does not create ice. If life & the universe is an accident then our very thought processes eg atheism is an accident, science is an accident, the machinery we design & create are accidents.
The atheist thinks he is clever but yet is foolish because he cannot understand that the fact that our solar system is called a “system” is because there is a methodology & a harmony to how our solar system works and exists. It’s not a chaotic or continuously accidental existence. The system didn’t exist by accident or chance. It was created deliberately by God and that’s why creation exists.
It would be foolish with all its complexities, its deliberate design and the number of components and parts it takes to build a single Airbus A380 & LHC to assume that there was absolutely no intelligent design or intelligent mind behind the creation of these machines. What foolishness is would be to assume that there was a big bang explosion of energy and gas and that over a certain period of years the Airbus and the Large Hadron Collider self-existed without the hand of a creator.
Atheism denies the existence of God as the intelligent & creative Being behind the creation of life and the universe. Instead the atheist opts to believe that life & the universe exists as a result of an accident and that there was no intelligent Being who deliberately created the universe.
The make-up of the universe is far more complex than an Airbus or an LHC and it would be foolish to think that the universe was not created by an intelligent Creator who is far more intelligent than any human being could ever fathom.
Romans 1:20 NKJV – For since the creation of the world His (God’s) invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
Just as the existence of the Airbus or LHC are evidence that its manufacturers exist Romans 1:20 explains that the existence of nature & the entire universe are clear evidence that a Creator (God) exists that creation did not just come from nothing or nowhere.

3. The Atheist Foolishly Thinks Science Has The Answers To Everything
Can a person learn the German language by reading a mathematics textbook? Can I learn about how a cellphone functions by reading a biology textbook? If a man wanted to learn how to drive a car, would you suggest they read a TV manual?
If the above questions sound absurd it’s because atheism avails its foolishness by assuming that science has the answers to all things – including the spiritual & whether or not the spiritual realm exists.
Science is the systematic study of the structure & behavior of the physical & natural world through observation and experiment.
The atheist however reveals his foolish pattern of thinking by assuming that science should be able to study God who is neither physical nor natural.
God is Spirit and He is SUPERnatural. Therefore science is NOT the best means by which a person can learn or observe the nature of God. It would be similar to trying to learn the German language by reading a mathematics book. It’s foolish – yet the atheist thought pattern is very similar to this illogic thinking when it comes to God.
The atheist is using science which is the study of the physical and natural to disprove the existence of a spiritual & supernatural God. What foolishness.
If the atheists truly and genuinely wants to know God then he/she has do a few things that will draw that person to God. For example, genuinely praying, genuinely seeking to know God, reading God’s word (the Bible) and YES – having FAITH that God exists. It’s these simple things that enable one to enter from the physical & into God’s spiritual realm.
1 Corinthians 1:18-21 says “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.”
Does this mean that people should abandon science? Of course not. Science however only tries though in a limited way to explain the physical creation by a supernatural unseen Creator – God.
Hebrews 11:3 NKJV – By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

4. Atheists Don’t Know That Atheism is a Belief System
The atheist will proudly but foolishly tell you that atheism is the non-belief in God or gods. However, I’m yet to meet or have a conversation with an atheist who doesn’t believe in the Theory of Evolution or the Big Bang Theory. Neither evolution nor the big bang can be proved by experimentation or observation.
None of these 2 theories can scientifically explain nor give observable evidence of the origin of life but yet atheists are happy to theorize and hypothesis this issue. Ironically theorizing & hypothesizing both which require a degree of FAITH. Yet FAITH is something that atheists claim not to live by – but they foolishly contradict themselves by applying faith based thinking & hypothesis in their speculations about evolution, the big bang and the origin of life.
The truth is – it takes FAITH to believe in evolution & the big bang theories.
The reason being that there is no observable scientific evidence that man for example descended from worms called Xenorturbella bocki which at some point in time became a type of fish and then later became an ape and finally turned into what we are now – humans. Can the atheist prove that 500 million years ago we were Xenorturbella bocki worms? How did they get to “500 million years ago”? What scientific instruments did they use to come up with “500 million years”? Have the atheists studied, observed & experimented a Xenorturbella bocki worm change from a worm to an ape-like mammal?
Atheists have no scientific or observable evidence to prove these claims yet cling to the FAITH or BELIEF that we descended from a worm type then later apes.
I would personally prefer the following definition of atheism that I once saw on one of the social media platforms: Atheism is the belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs, birds, trees, fish and the like.
Despite their reliance on science as the answer to ALL things, atheists lacks any scientific or observable evidence for evolution or the big bang theories. Neither does the atheist have any scientific evidence for the origin of life.

5. The Atheist Cannot Disprove The Existence of God
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Therefore just because a person has never seen a physical manifestation of God, it does not mean that God does not exist.
There is nobody who is omniscient / all-knowing. We are all limited in our capacity; we are all limited in our understanding; we are all limited in our knowledge.
Yet despite our universal limited capacities, I have found during various debates that the atheist believes that he/she thinks ABSOLUTELY that there is no God. If you ask these atheists such questions as “Have you been to every single planet in the galaxy? Have you been to every single star in the galaxy? Do you know everything there is to know about every single subject?” the atheist will either try to find a way to skirt the questions or begrudgingly admit that they are indeed limited in capacity & knowledge.
Therefore an atheist CANNOT prove that God does not exist. An atheist has no interest in knowing God – therefore how can He know God? The atheist isn’t interested yet he foolishly claims that He doesn’t exist to the billions of people who believe and worship God.

Conclusion
So is atheism foolish? Yes it is. God says so through His word in Psalms 14:1 that the atheist is foolish.
There is no common sense thinking pattern when it comes to atheism as stated in the 5 areas above.
Romans 1:20 says the atheist is “without excuse” because nature itself testifies that there is a Creator. Just as complex machinery like the Airbus 380 and the LHC did not create themselves – therefore the universe could never have created itself. Common sense thinking should reveal that nature & life exists as a result of an intelligent & mighty Creator.



SALVATION CALL !!! ARE YOU AN ATHEIST WHO WANTS TO KNOW GOD???
DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A CHILD OF GOD & A FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST???

1. ACKNOWLEDGE: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
This means that we have all broken God’s laws and God’s 10 Commandments like those mentioned in Exodus 20:1-17. For example, if you have told a lie; if you have stolen something; if you have lusted after somebody or if you have coveted. This means you are guilty of breaking at least one or more of God’s 10 Commandments. Breaking God’s commandments makes us sinners. The fact that we are sinners who have broken God’s law means that we are accountable to God who is the Lawgiver. Romans 6:23 says that “the wages of sin is death BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
You must acknowledge that you are a sinner who has broken God’s commandments and that you therefore need Jesus in your life.

2. REPENT: “Unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3), “Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19)
Repenting means: to change your mind; a sincere turning away, in heart, mind and action;
Therefore God wants you to repent of sinful values and of sinful living. God wants you to decide to
follow Him and to make Jesus the Lord of your life.

3. CONFESSION: “If we confess our sins. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)
God is a forgiving God. God will forgive any sin that you have done because Jesus died for ALL your sins and to set you free from the bondage of all types of sin in your life.

4. BELIEVE: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
You must believe that ONLY Jesus can save you and restore your relationship with God. You must believe that Jesus is the ONLY way by which you can have everlasting life and escape from eternal separation from God. You must believe that Jesus died on the cross for you and resurrected from the grave.
“He came to His own, and His own did not receive him, But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name” (John 1:11-12)
By faith, You must receive Jesus as Your Lord & Savior and therefore; you become a child of God; you become born again; you become a Christian; you restore your broken relationship with God

Why Not Make Your Eternal Decision NOW?

We become born again Christians by GRACE through FAITH or TOTAL TRUST in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior (Galatians 3:26) & (Ephesians 2:8,9). Salvation is a FREE gift received through FAITH in Christ"

BY STEWART KABATEBATE

https://www.inspiredwalk.com/1948/5-reasons-atheism-foolish
1 year ago Report
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zeffur
zeffur: @BS: You just aren't thinking like an evoidiot. Here's the proper process:

1. Pretend God does not exist because you don't want to admit the truth that is all around you to plainly see--that God has to exist for life/DNA & all the whole life forms that have existed on earth to have existed. Intelligence IS required--but just ignore that obvious reality & all other info that reminds you that you are wrong & spreading a lie.

2. Pretend that radiation, heat, evaporation, precipitation, mud, sand, rock, RNA, etc can randomly bond to itself & to other raw materials without any intelligence or design to magically create a primitive form of life that all other things evolved from.

3. Completely disregard the fact that no such thing has ever been found & that there is absolutely NO proof or sound case that abiogenesis & evolution have EVER occurred, because you know-pseudoscience rulez--not real science.

4. Lie endlessly that evolution is a fact--when it most definitely has never been proven true.

5. Attack anyone who questions your irrational, indefensible, & absurd claims.

6. Support the brainwashing of indefensible children so that they too can be indoctrinated in your insanity.

rinse & repeat...
(Edited by zeffur)
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Angry Beaver
Angry Beaver: très amusant
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zeffur
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zeffur
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes:
The Incredible Accuracy of the Bible: An Argument for Inspiration


Horace (65-8 B.C.), a Latin lyric poet, wrote: “Sometimes even the noble Homer nods” (Ars Poetica I.359).

Homer was the blind Greek poet of the eighth century B.C., so well-known for his works, the Iliad and the Odyssey. What Horace suggested was this: as accomplished as Homer was, he sometimes erred with reference to the facts of the incidents he mentioned.

More than a quarter of a century ago, the late B. C. Goodpasture, respected editor of the Gospel Advocate for some thirty-eight years, published an article in that journal titled, “Homer Sometimes Nods” (1970). The thrust of this fascinating essay was to show that human authors, regardless of their genius and skill, are fallible. Thus, in spite of their consummate care, they will “nod” or slip on occasion.

By way of contrast, the writers of the biblical record never nodded. Even though many of them were not professional scholars (cf. Acts 4:13), nonetheless they wrote with astounding precision. The only reasonable conclusion the honest student may draw is this: their work was directed by the Spirit of God.

To Err Is Human
A poet once quipped: “To err is human.” How very true. Humans do err; God does not. And that is why the careful student can clearly discern the difference between a document that is a mere human composition, and one which was penned under the guidance of the infallible Creator of the universe.

Literary Flaws—Ancient and Modern
Herodotus was a Greek historian of the fifth century B.C. Cicero called him “the father of history.” He wrote nine books dealing with the Greek and Persian wars, together with a history of the customs and geography of those empires. In one of his writings, Herodotus claimed that oxen in Sythia grew no horns because it was too cold there (The Histories 4.29). He apparently had never heard of reindeer!

Aristotle, the famous Greek scholar of the fourth century B.C., was renowned for his knowledge. Yet he made some colossal speculative blunders. In his work titled Parts of Animals, he argued that within the human body, man’s soul is “lodged in some substance of a fiery character.” He contended that the brain “is a compound of earth and water.” He further suggested that sleep is caused by the blood flowing into the brain, thus making it heavy. This, he declared, “is the reason why drowsy persons hang the head” (Book II, Chapter 3).

Marcus Porcius Cato was a Roman statesman who died about the mid-second century B.C. His famous work De Agri Cultura (On Farming) has survived. In one passage (71) he gave a remedy for treating an ailing ox. It consisted of forcing down the ox a whole, raw hen’s egg, followed the next day by a concoction of leek and wine. However, this treatment, in order to be efficacious, absolutely must be administered from a wooden vessel while both the ox and the administrator are standing (cited by Sarton 1959, 408).
It is obvious that the method of administration would have nothing to do with the curative value of Cato’s concoction. But, such is the nature of human superstition.

Flavius Josephus was a Jewish writer who authored several works regarding the Hebrew nation—its fortunes and fates. Though he is considered a respectable historian for his day, he frequently slipped. For instance he declared that during the siege of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), a heifer, being led to sacrifice in the temple, gave birth to a lamb (The Wars of the Jews 6.3).

Samuel Johnson was the author of the first bona fide English dictionary. He also produced A Grammar of the English Tongue. In that work the celebrated writer stated that the letter “H seldom, perhaps never, begins any but the first syllable” of a word. Regrettably, he had not noticed that h commenced the second syllable in “perhaps.” His humiliation must have been keen.

The famous poet, Lord Byron, wrote a magnificent composition which he titled The Destruction of Sennacherib. In beautiful rhyme this literary masterpiece dramatically told of the devastating deaths of the 185,000 Assyrian soldiers who threatened Jerusalem in the days of Hezekiah, king of Judah. The poet slipped, though, because the rebel monarch Sennacherib was not destroyed when Jehovah’s messenger smote that vast heathen camp. The king was several miles away at Lachish when the destruction occurred. He eventually returned to his home in the east and was slain by his own sons—in fulfillment, incidentally, of sacred prophecy (2 Kings 19:7,36-37).

Adam Clarke was probably the most famous scholar produced by the Methodist Church. He spent forty years writing his famous Commentary on the Bible. As meticulous as he was, Clarke occasionally erred. For example, in commenting on Genesis 1:16, he suggested that the moon has streams and vegetation, and is inhabited by intelligent beings. Our modern space explorations have proved that speculation to be quite erroneous. Clarke also stated that Jewish historian Josephus never mentioned the Syrian soldier, Naaman. He was wrong, though, because Josephus asserted that the warrior who mortally wounded Ahab, by shooting an arrow randomly into the air, was Naaman (Antiquities of the Jews 8.15.5).

Alexander Cruden produced a very widely used concordance of the English Bible, a task for which he was well-qualified by virtue of many years of Scripture study (even though, at times, he suffered from emotional illness). Yet, in his volume, Explanations of Scripture Terms, concerning the whale, Cruden wrote: “The [whale is the] greatest of the fishes that we know of” (1840, 366). He erred. Actually, the whale is a mammal, and not a fish at all.

The religion of Islam claims that the Qur’an is inspired of God. Clearly, however, it is not, for it is flawed by many examples of nodding. For instance, the Qur’an suggests that the human fetus results from “sperm” (no mention of an egg) that changes into “a clot of congealed blood,” which then becomes bones, later to be covered with flesh (Sura 23:14). This is hardly an accurate description of fetal development.

The Book of Mormon is revered by millions of “Latter-Day Saints.” It purports to be an infallible revelation from God given to Joseph Smith Jr. by an angel of the Lord. Whoever composed the narrative, however, nodded more than once (one is tempted to say he lapsed into a coma). For instance in Alma 7:10 it is said that Jesus Christ was born in Jerusalem. But, as every school child knows, the Lord was born in that “little town of Bethlehem” (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1).

The Spirit of God makes no such blunders. Again, according to The Book of Mormon, a man by the name of Nephi was using a “compass” to find his direction in the sixth century B.C. (1 Nephi 16:10; 2 Nephi 5:12). It is well known, of course, that the mariner’s compass was not in use until at least a thousand years after the birth of Christ. This is a critical anachronism in Mormonism’s “sacred” book.

Joseph Smith Jr. also taught that there were people living on the moon. According to Smith, they were six feet tall, dressed like Quakers, and had a life-span of one thousand years (Huntington 1892, 263). Brigham Young, Smith’s successor, when asked about this matter, concurred, suggesting that such beings lived on the sun as well (Young 1854-75, 271).

Mary Baker Eddy founded the “Christian Science” movement. She produced a book, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, which she claimed was co-authored by God. But Mrs. Eddy more-than-nodded when, in that volume, she wrote:

Man is not matter, made up of brains, blood, bones, and other material elements . . . .Man is spiritual and perfect; and because of this, he must be so understood in Christian Science . . . .Man is incapable of sin, sickness, and death (1934, 475). In spite of her denial of human mortality, she died December 3, 1910.

Biblical Accuracy
By way of glaring contrast, the holy writers of the biblical records never nodded. Their works are characterized by a razor-sharp accuracy that defies explanation save on the ground they were controlled by the Spirit of God. Consider the following factors.

The first two chapters of the Bible contain the divine record of the commencement of the universe, including the Earth and its inhabitants. Though it was penned thirty-five centuries ago, there is not a syllable in this account that is at variance with any demonstrable fact of science. Any book on astronomy or earth science penned fifty years ago is already obsolete. And yet Genesis, simple and sublime, is factually flawless.

The Mosaic narrative asserts that the universe had a “beginning” (1:1), which is perfectly consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Contrast this with the Babylonian creation record known as Enuma Elish, which asserts the eternality of matter (Pfeiffer 1966, 226).

The Genesis record affirms that creation activity was concluded by the end of the sixth day (2:1-3). Science says, as per the First Law of Thermodynamics, that nothing is being created today.

No less than ten times Genesis 1 affirms that biological organisms replicate “after [their] kind.” In passing we must note that modern pseudo-science (i.e., the theory of evolution) is dependent upon the notion that in the past organisms have reproduced after their non-kind! The biblical account, however, is in perfect harmony with the known laws of genetics.

The medical knowledge revealed in the Bible is truly astounding. It is well known, for instance, that medicine in the antique world was based upon myth and superstition. This was true in Babylon and Egypt.

For example the Papyrus Ebers (from the sixteenth century B.C.), edited by George M. Ebers in 1874, offered some very strange remedies for various illnesses. Here is a prescription for folks who are losing their hair:

When it falls out, one remedy is to apply a mixture of six fats, namely those of the horse, the hippopotamus, the crocodile, the cat, the snake, and the ibex. To strengthen it, anoint with the tooth of a donkey crushed in honey (quoted by McMillen 1963, 11).

Even the Edwin Smith Surgical Papyrus, one of the more sophisticated examples of Egyptian medical “science,” contains a spell for “transforming an old man into a youth of twenty.”

In spite of the fact that Moses was reared in an Egyptian environment and “was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians” (Acts 7:22), not one time did the great law-giver incorporate any of this magical mumbo-jumbo into the Scriptures. On the contrary, Moses was far ahead of his time in terms of medicine and sanitation. A careful study of Leviticus 13, with reference to certain skin diseases, reveals some rather modern techniques (e.g., the diagnosis of certain symptoms), treatment to lessen spread (e.g., disinfection), and quarantine. No other law code in the whole of ancient history came anywhere near rivaling these health regulations.

Consider, for instance, the fact that the “leper” was required to “cover his upper lip” (Leviticus 13:45). Dr. J. S. Morton has noted: “Since the leprosy bacilli are transmitted from nasal drippings and saliva, this practice of having lepers cover their upper lips was a good hygienic policy” (1978, 255).

Concerning Moses’ procedures for quarantining, Dr. William Vis has written:

To show how far Moses was ahead of modern society we need only to remind ourselves that the word quarantine originated in the fourteenth century when the Italian ports of Venice and Genoa first refused admission to immigrants who might be harboring plague and required them to stay on board for forty days—hence the word quarantine. Even in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries leprosy spread over southern Europe until the principles of Moses were re-enacted successfully (1950, 244).

When the Encyclopedia Britannica was first published, it had so many mistakes relative to American geography and topography that the publishers of the New American Cyclopedia issued a special pamphlet correcting the blunders of its British rival.

J. W. McGarvey once noted that when Tacitus wrote his celebrated work, Germania, which dealt with the geography, manners, customs, and tribes of Germany, it contained so many errors that many were inclined to doubt that this well-known Roman historian could have produced such a flawed volume (1956, 26-27). The Encyclopedia Britannica notes that “the geography is its weak point” (1958, 736).

The biblical writings contain literally hundreds of references to geography and topography relating to those lands which the prophets and apostles traversed. We are quite casual in our topographical allusions. Usually we speak of going “up” north and “down” south. For example, you might say you are going to travel from Atlanta up to Chicago, though Chicago is almost five hundred feet lower than Atlanta.

However the biblical writers, are always precise when recording elevation references. One travels from Jerusalem (in the south) “down” to Antioch, some one hundred fify miles to the north (Acts 15:1-2). Not once is there a geographical or topographical blunder in the sacred volume, in spite of the fact that the ancients did not possess the sophisticated instruments we have today.

Here is an amazing fact. In the book of Acts, the historian Luke mentions thirty-two countries, fifty-four cities, and nine of the Mediterranean islands (Metzger 1965, p. 171). There is not the slightest mistake in any of his references. Luke has been criticized over the centuries to be sure; his influence has increased, however, while his critics’ credibility has decreased.

Alleged Slips
Over a span of many centuries, hostile critics of the Bible have charged the sacred writers with nodding. Time after time, however, when the true facts have come to light, the Scriptures have been vindicated. Reflect upon a few examples.

The Genesis record declares that while he was in Egypt, Pharaoh presented Abraham with some camels (12:16). Liberal writers disputed this. T. K. Cheyne wrote: “The assertion that the ancient Egyptians knew of the camel is unfounded” (1899, 634). Professor Kenneth Kitchen has shown, however, that “the extant evidence clearly indicates that the domestic camel was known [in Egypt] by 3,000 B.C.”—long before Abraham’s time (1980, 228).

On several occasions in the book of Genesis, it is recorded that Abraham and Isaac had associations with the Philistines (cf. Genesis 21 and 26). Liberal scholars consider these references to be anachronistic (details from a later age inappropriately inserted into the patriarchal account). H.T. Frank characterizes the allusions as “an historical inaccuracy” (1964, 323).

It has been shown, however, that “Philistine” was a rather generic term and that there is no valid reason to doubt that these groups were in Canaan before the arrival of the main body in the early twelfth century B.C. (Unger 1954, 91; Archer 1964, 266; Harrison 1963, 32). Harrison says that the archaeological evidence “suggests that it is a mistake to regard the mention of the Philistines in the patriarchal narratives as an anachronism” (1983, 362).

Elsewhere, this writer has catalogued no less than twenty major slips, with which the biblical writers have been charged (Jackson 1982). Each of these has evaporated with the passing of time and the exhumation of evidence.

Conclusion
Yes, even the noble Homer may nod; those guided by the Spirit of God, however, never did. You can trust the Bible! And here is a crucial point: if the Bible proves to be reliable in hundreds of matters that are verifiable, why should it not be trusted in issues in the spiritual realm that, from the very nature of the case, are beyond human verification, e.g., issues pertaining to redemption from sin?"

By Wayne Jackson
1 year ago Report
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zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

re: "harpalycus47: If it is well understood then explain it. Why did God sacrifice his son?"

To serve as an eternal atonement (price paid) for the sins of those who are born again, so that they can be fit to have eternal life in God's kingdom.

re: " Jesus died for you? Then how come he is still alive?"

He was an innocent sacrifice for those who are born again. His eternal sacrifice atones for their sins. That's how a sacrifice/atonement works--a price must be paid & Jesus Christ paid that price with His suffering & His life. He was resurrected by God because His perfect Spirit is God's Perfect Spirit. He is still alive because He was bodily resurrected & He has eternal life.

re: "...the weird thing is that no-one ever notices that Jesus didn’t die Or, by definition, he would be dead."

The weird thing is that you are apparently incapable of understanding something so simple. Jesus did in fact die (body death) & He did in fact get resurrected. His Spirit is eternal & it will never die because it is God's Perfect Eternal Spirit. Physical death & Spiritual death are not the same things.

re: "Why should God sacrifice him? What is the justification?"

A death price has to be paid for sin because the wages of sin is death. Jesus was & is perfect, so His death was unjustified & a sacrifice that serves as eternal atonement (price paid) for the sins of those who are born again. God/Jesus' love for humanity created that opportunity for those who are born again--otherwise they could not attain eternal life in God's kingdom.

Unbelievers will never be born again because they have decided to be perpetually corrupt. That is the reason that they will not have eternal life in God's kingdom.
1 year ago Report
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zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

re: "harpalycus47: “zeffur: To serve as an eternal atonement (price paid) for the sins of those who are born again, so that they can be fit to have eternal life in God's kingdom.”

Paid to whom and for what purpose? How does a price paid make you fit to have eternal life?

Ordinarily they are paid by the disobedient sinner for sins committed to right their relationship with God, in accordance with God's law in the OT & must be accompanied by genuine contrition (feeling genuinely remorseful and penitent (feeling genuine sorrow & regret)) & paying a price in blood. That was the purpose of the blood sacrifices in Jewish law. In the case of salvation, Jesus' sacrifice is an eternal atonement (price paid) by Jesus (who was innocent & unjustly killed) for those who are born again, so that their sins will be washed away, so that they will be fit for entrance into God's kingdom.

re: "In what possible way do sins need to be paid for? It might make sense that someone should show contrition by accepting punishment for wrongs done, but it makes no sense at all that someone else accepting the punishment can change anything about the situation."

It makes no sense to someone like you because you don't really understand what a sacrifice is. Jesus was innocent, so when He was unjustly killed, His sacrifice served as an eternal atonement (price paid) for those who are born again. His sacrifice nullifies/washes away sin, for people who are born again.

re: "Only the person concerned can make amends by accepting punishment, though I don’t find the principle particularly moral."

That ^^ is NOT how God set things up. The wage of sin is always death--except for the case of Jesus' sacrifice--which effectively nullifies/washes away the sins for those who are born again. Your confusion is caused by your association with punishment for crime--which is of man--not of God. Unbelievers & sinners who are not born again have no option for salvation. Only true faith in Jesus will result in Salvation due to His sacrifice--not due to any person's good works or punishment.

re: "Eternal sacrifice? What is eternal about it? He was ‘dead’ for one and two bits of days. Then it was over and he could waltz off back to Heaven."

Wrong. Jesus suffered & even went to hell for mankind. It is eternal because He was innocent & His atonement for those who are born again is eternal.

re: ""zeffur: That's how a sacrifice/atonement works--a price must be paid & Jesus Christ paid that price with His suffering & His life."

Price must be paid to whom, and for what?"

The price of sin is death & loss of salvation. It isn't paid to anyone--it is a cost for sinning.

re: "It can only be due to God (or who else is it?) and God can do anything. Even if there was some weird karmic law that a price MUST be paid, then that law obviously cannot be binding on God."

Karma is not of God, so it is irrelevant.

re: " After all, he made everything, which would include such a ‘law’. So, why didn’t he just forgive everyone and that’s it?"

You can't escape death & loss of salvation if you are not born again. Death & loss of salvation are the final consequence of sin. Without faith in Jesus Christ & being born again, a person's sins cannot be washed away & s/he cannot be saved & have eternal life in God's kingdom. God can't just forgive everyone because His judgment & justice must be perfect. All sin must have a consequence. Jesus' sacrifice is a substitute for the price that should be paid for the sins of people who are born again. That is how God decided to establish salvation.

re: "What is the NEED for anything else? And if there is a NEED that could not be avoided (which would seem to be impossible according to the definition of God) then God can still simply annul the law."

God's laws are perfect--He cannot annul perfection & remain perfect in His judgment & justice. You don't understand because you are not logical.

re: "“zeffur: He was resurrected by God because His perfect Spirit is God's Perfect Spirit. He is still alive because He was bodily resurrected & He has eternal life.”

Then he didn’t die. The actual definition of death is extraordinarily difficult and people ‘die’ and are resuscitated as a matter of course. . If anyone seems to die but then comes back to life, then the simplest conclusion is that they never died."

Wrong--as usual. Jesus was definitely dead for days. No one is resuscitated after days of being dead. Jesus was resurrected by the power of God--He didn't just come to after being dead for days.

re: "The key thing is the dissolution of the brain. So, while it might have been a record, there was nothing unique about Jesus."

Wrong--as usual. Read The Bible properly--there was a LOT unique about Jesus. There never has been any God-human hybrid before Jesus' existence.

re: "And to say whether he died or not is a semantic issue."

Your erroneous opinion isn't fact. The Bible clearly shows otherwise. Your erroneous opinion doesn't matter in the slightest.

re: "But the underlying point is important. Jesus experienced what many people do. For a God it was a paltry thing. He knew that he would be alive again."

That ^^ doesn't matter at all.

re: "By the way, exactly how do you know that he wasn’t comatose and not dead at all?"

Because He prophesied His death & the Roman's were professional killers. They beat, scourged, & stabbed him with a spear. It also shows in The Bible that Jesus died. Your failure to accept that reality doesn't make you right--it makes you unwilling to accept the documented truth.

re: "“zeffur: A death price has to be paid for sin because the wages of sin is death.”
Who says this?

Shows The Bible: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23 KJV

re: "What morality is there in declaring that sin must be paid for by death? Capital punishment for just a little sin? If it is not due to God then who or what holds God to it?"

God's judgment & justice is perfect. Your opinion is unimportant because you aren't God.

re: "Who has the authority to require God to pay some price?"

Apparently you can't grasp the concept of omnipotence, huh?

re: "It is worth remarking on the following. No-one dies, they end up in the sick obscenity of Hell. And that is what the bible preaches. Or, at the very least, God, who should be omniscient and should know better, allowed his message to be corrupted and to become a thing of terror and despair. Certainly his church has preached it throughout history which reflects a monumental lack of clarity, and care, on him."

You don't really think that your irrational & foolish blaming & impotent judgment of God matters one iota, do you?? Hell is exactly where God wants NO ONE to end up--but, the sad truth is that reprobates endlessly corrupt themselves with their foolish thinking, words, & deeds because they hate God for no sound reason whatsoever. The terror & despair that you create for yourself is caused by your own willful sins/corruptions (irrationality, hatred, delusions, etc). People who choose to have faith in Jesus Christ & follow His teaching don't have any of those feelings or concerns. If you had any good sense whatsoever, you'd recognize that you've foolishly chosen the wrong side...
(Edited by zeffur)
1 year ago Report
1
zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

zeffur: re: "harp: How does the death of the animal do anything?"

It helps a person to understand the magnitude & true cost of sin (death) & to repent. It's intended to be a reminder & changer of the foolish attitudes & misconduct of a person--when considered properly. The problem with people like YOU is that you think & foolishly pretend sin is unimportant (e.g. "Capital punishment for just a little sin?.". ALL SIN is a major event for a perfect God who requires His creations to be holy (Spiritually pure). You refuse to accept & appreciate that because you prefer to believe in your own vain imaginations rather than God's perfection & requirements.

re: "what a perfectly loathsome idea to begin with."

Now you understand what God thinks about your sins. They are even worse than what happens to a slaughtered animal.

re: "Slaughtering the innocent is another."

Now you are beginning to understand what the meaning of Jesus' Christ's death/sacrifice truly represents. He was the innocent that was unjustly killed for the sins of those who are born again.

re: "Why should blood add anything to feeling honest sorrow and regret?

The shedding of blood/death is representative of the seriousness & consequences of sin & path to forgiveness at a cost that should affect the mind & behavior of the sinner to stop sinning unnecessarily.

re: "So, your answer is that God is sacrificing his son to himself and his own law, which he could change even if it wasn’t his, a law that doesn’t serve any purpose. If it does, then you explain why a blood sacrifice is necessary?"

Wrong--as usual. That ^^ is your confused or intentionally twisted misunderstanding. Jesus willingly allowed Himself to be the slain lamb (i.e. sacrifice) for the forgiveness of those that are born again. That sacrifice negates (i.e. washes away) the sins of those that are born again so that they are perfect to God & therefore worthy of salvation. They could not be saved otherwise. Sin has to be paid for in God's perfect system of justice. God cannot be just if no price is paid. Jesus' innocent sacrifice paid that price for those who are born again.

re: "So, God requires a price to be paid to wash the sins away. Can’t he wash them away himself without any fuss? Without the blood? And why does he need it to be paid? What can God possibly NEED?"

That is not how God set up His system of human behavior modification & salvation. Your suggested method (above) is not just because there is no consequence for sin. God must be perfectly just, as He is perfect. A price has to be paid for sin because that is how God set up the system.

re: "What is a sacrifice for? You tell me. Does God NEED a sacrifice? Surely not – he is God."

The purpose of a sacrifice is an offering to restore a proper relationship between a sinner & God, as all sin creates a Spiritual separation from God, as God is perfect & a sinner is obviously not, due to her/his disobedience. God doesn't need sacrifice--in fact, He expects holiness (Spiritual purity). The point of the sacrifice is for a person to fully grasp the magnitude of sin & to repent to maintain a proper relationship with God.

re: " Does God WANT a sacrifice?"

No. God expects purity to maintain a proper relationship with Him. He created all people perfect & it is their responsibility to maintain a proper relationship with Him, as he is always perfect.

re: "Does that sound as singularly distasteful to you as it does to me?"

No, it sound like a loving behavior modification system for the benefit of people who have made foolish decisions during their lives.

re: "And can an omnipotent God want anything? Explain how."

Yes, of course. He can & does want free will beings that He has created to be & do what is right--even when He knows that some of them will NOT be & do what is right. Those that do will be saved & those that don't won't be saved. It's like a farmer who plants a crop---some of the crop will be saved & some of it won't achieve the minimum requirement to be saved. Unbelievers are like failed & rejected farm produced.

re: "Price paid. Price of what? A price paid to God makes no sense."

Already asked & already answered.

re: " Nothing has value to him."

Wrong. Every one of His created beings is precious to Him, but He has minimum standards for salvation.

re: "You can only regard something as having value if it would cause you some problem or loss if you lose it or bring you some advantage by gaining it."

Every forsaken being is a loss. God wanted all of them to be saved, but by giving them free will, they each have the ability to separate themself from God's perfection, if that is what they decide they want. Atonement is a way to reconcile oneself back to a proper relationship with God--but God doesn't want people to keep using that process without actually repenting--which is what many people unwisely do because they aren't really penitant--they are liars--just like satan.

re: "An omnipotent God cannot have a problem and has nothing that can bring him advantage. You are missing the point totally. You simply keep saying it is an atonement, a price, a sacrifice."

Actually, it is you who is confusing yourself & not grasping the point of it all. God loves his created beings & wants them to be holy, so that they can be saved. He even expressed that love by allowing Jesus (God in the flesh) to be sacrificed for those who want to be saved. You don't want that because you have corrupted yourself & you are apparently incapable to genuine remorse & desire to be reconciled with God for eternity. You foolishly think your confusions & judgments of God are intelligent & logical--but that is pure delusion on your part.

re: "Exactly. God set things up in this way. He wasn’t forced to. He wasn’t required to. And it resulted in him having to sacrifice his son. Being omniscient he would have known that this was going to happen. So WHY did he set it up in this way? And why does he feel that he has to obey HIS OWN rule?"

God is omniscient--He knows everything--including what would happen when He creates a system that allows free will decisions. There will be those who will foolishly reject God's perfection. As God is perfect, He will not & cannot accept such foolish & corrupt beings into His kingdom for eternity. That means some will be saved & some will be forsaken in the end, as God cannot accept those that reject the Source of everything (Him), because they have willingly not valued what God has established for the foolish things that they've decided to value instead. God is perfect & therefore always does what is perfect--He has to keep His Word & He has to execute His perfect judgment & perfect justice because---He's PERFECT! You can't grasp that because imperfection is what you desire.

re: "you think it is moral that, in the face of dubious information, someone who draws the wrong conclusion is sentenced to death and a serial killer or a clerical paedophile gains eternal life because they happened to draw the right one?"

God has established a method for addressing sin in order to be reconciled to God. It's not complicated. Those that abide by it will overcome the consequences of their sins (in most cases--except mortal sins) & those that reject it will be forsaken.

re: "And exactly why do we need to believe in God? Is he so egocentric that believing in him is far more important than doing good works? Of what importance does it have what someone believes."

Because that is just part of what God requires of those that He has created. Focusing on God's perfection helps normal people to appreciate how awesome & perfect God truly is & it inspires them to repent & to be holy. In corrupt people they despise God for being awesome & delude themselves that they are above God in many stupid ways. They also thumb their noses at God, curse God, & every other manner of stupidity that they can imagine.

re: "It’s the kind of person they are and what they do that are important, though even that is not a reason to deny anyone eternal life if they were brought up in an evil world ruled by genetics and environmental factors."

All people have a functioning conscience, even when some of them decide to ignore it. Your opinion about what will & won't lead to eternal life are all invalid unless they agree with what God has established.

re: "“zeffur: Wrong. Jesus suffered & even went to hell for mankind. It is eternal because He was innocent & His atonement for those who are born again is eternal.”

Your answer is a classic non sequitur. ‘It is eternal because he is innocent’. How does being innocent entail being eternal?"

Jesus sacrifice & atonement for those that are born again is eternal because it never ends. It is available to all those who are born again. It wasn't just good as an atonement for one other person--it is good for all people who are born again. That's the magnitude of importance that it produced.

re: "His sacrifice was not eternal. It was brief and finite. Period. The atonement was made. It does not go on being made. It is finite. If someone owed you a debt and they paid it, would you say the payment was eternal? The only way you could say that in any meaningful way, would be if any action was regarded as eternal because it has been done and therefore is, in a rather strained sense, part of all future time. Which would be a pretty ludicrous idea and mean that putting my shoes on is eternal as well."

Wrong as usual. God's assessment of the value & permanence of Jesus Christ's sacrifice & eternal atonement for those who are born again is what matters. Your opinion is not important in any way at all. You are impotent & God is omnipotent--you lose every time & your opinions don't matter in the slightest.

re: "“zeffur: The price of sin is death & loss of salvation. It isn't paid to anyone--it is a cost for sinning”

But why does it NEED to be paid."

God is omniscient--He knows everything--including what would happen when He creates a system that allows free will decisions. There will be those who will foolishly reject God's perfection. As God is perfect, He will not & cannot accept such foolish & corrupt beings into His kingdom for eternity. That means some will be saved & some will be forsaken in the end, as God cannot accept those that reject the Source of everything (Him), because they have willingly not valued what God has established for the foolish things that they've decided to value instead. God is perfect & therefore always does what is perfect--He has to keep His Word & He has to execute His perfect judgment & perfect justice because---He's PERFECT! You can't grasp that because imperfection is what you desire.

re: "You sin and are duly remorseful and believe in God and he forgives you and gives you eternal life. What is wrong with this happening? Why can’t it happen? Why must it be: You sin and are duly remorseful and believe in God and Christ dies on the cross and God forgives you and gives you eternal life."

Because that IS how God set up His system of salvation. He doesn't care in the slightest about YOUR opinion.

re: "Unless you can tell me what is wrong with the first one, then the additional fact that Christ dies on the cross is totally redundant. So why did God do it?"

What's wrong with it is that God must be always be perfect in His judgment & justice. He established that the wages of sin is death & that is the way that it goes unless one is born again. Once again, your opinion doesn't matter. You are NOT God.

re: "Instead of complaining because a descriptive term (nothing to do with God as such) is not to your taste – if you prefer, I will replace it with ‘principle of equivalent retribution’, why not answer the question asked?"

Because your question is unimportant. God isn't subject to the moral laws that He established for the benefit of mankind. God is perfect & by defnition, everything that He does is perfect & it cannot be unjust---there is therefore no justifcation for judgment of God. There is also no superior being that is capable of judging God's perfection as imperfect in any way. Hence your question is irrational & unimportant.

re: "What is it that is able to control God, to tell him what he can’t or must do?"

God IS perfect in everything. He cannot be imperfect. He controls Himself with perfect contol to always be perfect.

re: "So, the consequence of Sin is that an innocent person must be crucified. Justify that. ‘the price that should be paid’ – who determines that it MUST be paid. The only one that can decide is God. And, instead of simply ignoring it, letting one off the debt, so to speak, he insists that it must be paid. But it isn’t paid. Jesus’s crucifixion doesn’t pay anyone anything. Or do you think it does? I would be interested to know who."

You are like a 3-year old who keeps asking "But why?" without having any capacity to understand along the way, so you keep spinning in circles.

God created a system of salvation for those that are born again. He expressed His love for humanity by creating a pathway to salvation for those that want it. Your kind obviously doesn't want it & God will respect your free will decision to be forsaken because you value foolish corruption over perfection--we get it, you've chosen corruption over perfection--you've chosen the plate of manure over delicious food--because you've decided that delusion is superior to good sense. How could anyone not comprehend your obvious genius, right?? It wasn't a mistake when The Bible showed that there will be everlasting contempt for those that are forsaken. What kind of goofball would chose satan's path over eternity with a perfect God?? It can only be irrationally understood by lovers of satan, apparently.

re: "“God's laws are perfect--He cannot annul perfection & remain perfect in His judgment & justice. You don't understand because you are not logical”.

In which case why did his laws end up requiring him to have to crucify his own son?
I’m afraid that you have committed the error of assuming the truth of a premise that cannot be accepted. God is perfect. Therefore, he cannot be wrong. Therefore, I must be wrong. Let’s try that the other way round. God is wrong. Demonstrably – or did he just want to crucify Jesus? If not, then something must be wrong to end up with the crucifixion of Jesus. A perfect God cannot be wrong. Therefore, God isn’t perfect."

Wrong as usual. God is alway perfect. His system for salvation was created from the beginning--just not revealed to mankind all at once. The law was necessary for a time for people to truly understand the magnitude of what sin really means to God & to create a foreshadow of what Jesus' sacrifice & atonement would mean for humanity that are born again. Your failure to grasp that simple system is due to your endless irrationality & corruption. Good luck with that!

re: "“It wasn’t days. It was arguably less that 34 hours and perhaps significantly so. The longest time I can find for being revived is 17 hours. (3) But that isn’t really the point. The point is that he stopped breathing knowing that he would start again in a relatively short time. The claim that he died for us just does not sound right under those circumstances. Not when people have actually chosen to die for others or for a cause.”

Please provide us with proof of your biased & bogus claim...

re: "By the way, can you explain why there is no trace anywhere of a three-hour darkness of the sun, the great earthquake that rolled away the stone and, my personal favourite, ‘tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised."

Those that were resurrected Spiritually were take to Heaven.

re: "They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.’ You would have thought someone would have noticed"

They were no doubt noticed by some people, but they were taken to heaven. Most documents in Jerusalem were destroyed when Jerusalem was destroyed. Word of mouth also don't last over long periods of time & scoffers such as yourself usually result in most people keeping their experiences to themselves & their close circle of family & friends.

re: "“Wrong--as usual. Read The Bible properly--there was a LOT unique about Jesus. There never has been any God-human hybrid before Jesus' existence.”

Only if you believe the bible. I don’t."

Of course you don't beleive in God/Jesus Christ/The Bible, because you are willfully corrupt. You prefer to reject a perfect God for a corrupt belief in imperfect men (scientists) who tell you fairy tales that are consistent with your anti-God irrationalities & you ignore all evidence that reminds you that you have decided untruth is more important to you than the truth.

re: "“zeffur: Your erroneous opinion isn't fact. The Bible clearly shows otherwise. Your erroneous opinion doesn't matter in the slightest.”

If the bible clearly shows otherwise, then I guess I’m on the right track."

Keep deluding yourself--you deserve it.

re: "“zeffur: God's judgment & justice is perfect. Your opinion is unimportant because you aren't God.”

An extremely useful answer in a debate about ethical problems in the atonement. God’s right so there is no problem."

You err again--this isn't a debate about ethics--this is about God's morality for the benefit of mankind.

re: "re: "harp: Who has the authority to require God to pay some price?"
"zeffur: Apparently you can't grasp the concept of omnipotence, huh?”"

"harp: if I haven’t grasped the concept of omnipotence, you had better tell me in what way."

There is no 'authority' more powerful that God--so your question is pointless rhetoric.

re: "that is not an answer to the serious charges of teaching, or allowing to be taught, the sadistic obscenity of Hell. Do you believe in Hell?"

Unbeliever decisions to reject God results in them getting what they want--the abscence of God in their lives & the presence of satan & his demons. No light, no love, no hope, nothing good, etc--just the ways of the evil one that you've chosen over God. Still think it is rational to reject God for satan & hell?? Do explain that as rationally as you can for us, would you??

Yes, I believe hell exists & there are different levels of it for different levels of evil that people have manifested in their lives.

re: "You still haven’t grasped the serious problem at the heart of this debate. The fact there is no possible reason for a rational God to insist that he has to crucify his son."

Actually, there is no sound reason for you to doubt God or despise His chosen method of salvation & just consequences for those that will be forsaken. There is only 1 rational decision to make & that is FOR God & with God. Every other decision is incoherent/irrational to the extreme.

re: "Why does God sacrifice his son when he doesn’t NEED to?"

Reread what I've posted until you understand it. None of what I've posted is difficult to understand. Your opinions are not a factor in God's decisions to establish things as He decided for humanity.

re: Jesus' crucifixion & resurrection

"Jesus Was crucified on the Day of Preparation for the Passover. John also mentions that Jesus was crucified on “the day of Preparation” (John 19:31), that is, the Friday before the Sabbath of Passover week (Mark 15:42)"

"Mark and John agree that Jesus died on a Friday. In Mark, this was the Day of Passover (15 Nisan), the morning after the Passover meal of the evening before. Arrested and interrogated by Caiaphas and Pilate that night, Jesus was tried and crucified the next morning at 9 a.m. on Passover day."

"Jewish weekdays start with Sunday (day 1, or Yom Rishon) and proceed to Saturday (day 7), Shabbat."

"April 2 Nissan 14 Last Supper
April 3 Nissan 15 Crucifixion
April 4 Nissan 16
April 5 Nissan 17 Resurrection"

Jesus was resurrected on the 3rd day (which includes the day that he was killed, the day that He was resurrected, & the day between those 2 days).
(Edited by zeffur)
1 year ago Report
1
zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: Why does God sacrifice his son when he doesn’t NEED to?"

That ^^ question is irrelevant as God set up His system for mankind as He decided to do so in His infinite wisdom---not in accordance to your unimportant opinions...

re: ""ff God created no system for sinners to understand their sin, ... then they would not know what sin is & how to get right"

So sinners do not understand sin, do not know what it is and how to get right with God! What have I been saying all along that God has made his creation such that they cannot be blamed for their failure. If they do not know what sin is how can they avoid it. And only one creator can be responsible for this. Made imperfect in order to fail!"

Are you an idiot?? You can't just ignore the IF in that sentence. God created His system for mankind so that they all have a properly functioning conscience, they are all aware of sin & the consequences of sin, & they are aware of how to get right with God & to attain eternal life in His kingdom. Stop being a completely irrational & obtuse dummy!

re: "Exactly how does the crucifixion provide a system for sinners to understand their sin?"

It provides them with the awareness of God's love for them, so that they could be born again & have a pathway to eternal life in His kingdom. It also provides them with much knowledge about how to live a proper life in accordance to Jesus' teachings--all useful to born again Christians.

re: "You have written It is impossible for God to be/do . Impossible. So God isn't omnipotent? What an interesting Christian you are. "

More obtuse stupidity from you, huh? God must do as He has established that He will do with respect to His perfect judgment & justice. God cannot remain perfect if He does NOT do as He stated that He will do. The wages of Sin is death--that is why all will die & only some (those who are born again & sealed by The Holy Spirit) will be saved due to their faith in & following of Jesus.
1 year ago Report
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zeffur
zeffur: Posted elsewhere:

zeffur: re: "harp: Why does God sacrifice his son when he doesn’t NEED to?"

Reread what I posted until you grasp it properly--the answer has already been provided to you. "doesn't NEED to" is YOUR opinion--it isn't a fact!

God established that the wages of sin is death--that is immutable.
God is perfect & He must exercise perfect justice--that is also immutable--hence death must be a consequence of sin.

God so loved humanity that he created 2 different atonement (blood price paid) methods for humans to get into right Spiritual standing with Him: The first was a long-term learning method & the 2nd was the final, permanent solution for forgiveness & salvation:

1. Genuine contrition + animal sacrifice for atonement + repentance = right standing with God + proper faith in God > salvation.

2. Faith in Jesus Christ + genuine contrition + baptism + Jesus sacrifice for eternal atonement + repentance = right standing with God + proper faith in Jesus Christ > salvation. Justification for the gift of salvation comes from faith in Jesus Christ--it cannot be 'earned' through 'good works'.

It was always God's plan to express His love for mankind via His sacrifice of Himself--He just decided to do it in 2 phases. His sacrifice is the permanent replacement for animal sacrifice for the atonement (blood price paid) to negate sin. It is God's loving way to bring people into right standing with Him--for those who won't ignore their conscience & who want to be in right standing in their relationship with their creator.

All will die, many will be forgiven & continue to sin & never be saved, & some will be saved due to their genuine & proper faith in Jesus Christ.

God decided that He would establish an eternal atonement via sacrificing Himself/Jesus Christ & that is what He established. You think it wasn't necessary. God is perfect & always right & you are wrong. Sort out your arrogance in your own mind, then get right with God or chose to be for forsaken--the decision is yours to make.
1 year ago Report
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes:

Borrowed from HydroMan

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

WHAT IS REGENERATION

To put it simply, Regeneration (or rebirth, born again) is the new birth and new creation of a Believers heart, mind, body and spirit, though it is mainly in reference to regeneration of the human spirit from the Holy Spirit (John 3:3,6-7)

HOW IS A PERSEON REGENERATED/BORN AGAIN

Regeneration is brought about by the Holy Spirit coming into the life of a person and giving them a new spirit (Man’s spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit; John 3:6-8). This was prophesized in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 18:31, Ezekiel 36:26). It is a one-time event and occurs immediately when a person is saved (Man’s spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit the moment they are saved through faith in Jesus; Titus 3:5). It is a birth, not of blood, but of God and His Spirit (John 1:13, John 3:5-6). And it is a birth that takes place after a person puts their faith in Christ (one must believe in Christ in order to be saved, after which He sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in them). What this means is, regeneration is not of our own doing, but of God’s doing (i.e. just as no one can give birth to themselves, likewise, no one can regenerate themselves). And since our spirit is regenerated by God’s spirit, this makes us born of God (John 1:12-13, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:1), with His seed in us (i.e. the Holy Spirit, 1 John 3:9) allowing us to be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). This will lead to a spiritual transformation (to be more like God because He lives in us and has given us a new spirit, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:9) causing us to be renewed on the inside (heart and mind; Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 2 Corinthians 4:16, Ephesians 4:23, Colossians 3:10, Titus 3:5)

Analogy: When a baby is born, a new life emerges that did not previously exist. The baby is a brand-new being who begins to resemble/grow to look like the parents. A puppy grows up to look like a dog. A calf grows to look like a cow. An infant grows to look like an adult human. So it is with those born of God – the Believer is born again the moment they are saved. And as each day passes, they develop spiritual growth and become more like God their Creator and Father (resemble His character and nature).

REGENERATION, SPIRIT AND WATER

Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God… Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.” (John 3:3,5-6). In order to be “born again”, a person must be “born of water and the Spirit”. The idea of being “born of water” is to do with the Holy Spirit (see John 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13, see also John 4:14). Notice how born of water is immediately followed with the Spirit (they are one in the same thing; a twofold explanation of rebirth; Titus 3:5-6). This means a person must have God’s Spirit living in them and flowing in them like water (the “living water”; John 7:37-39). i.e. Just as a human child has their fathers blood flowing in them, a child of God needs to have His Spirit flowing in them (source of life)

OUTCOME OF REGENERATION

To be reborn means a persons spirit is no longer dead; it is alive; reconnecting the eternal relationship with God To be born again/reborn means a person is dead to sin and alive in Christ (Romans 6:11, John 3:3-7, 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 John 5:1). A person who is reborn still dies physically, but they are no longer spiritually dead (John 11:25-26; Romans 8:10-11). A person who is reborn is now able to have eternal life and have an eternal relationship with God. A person who is reborn is “in Christ”; that is, God sees a person in Jesus who is perfect and blameless, allowing the person to be “not guilty” of sin. The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23). This is a physical and spiritual death. Death is the absence of life. Death means a person will cease to exist for all eternity. To reborn prevents this from happening (i.e. Jesus has restored a persons spirit, and will restore their mind/body when He returns; John 11:25-26, Romans 8:10-11). Also, a person who is reborn has decided to no longer be the ruler of their life, but allow Jesus to be their ruler and live His way as it was intended for Man to live (Romans 10:9-11, Romans 14:8, Matthew 4:10).

To be reborn means a person is a new creation because they are seen as holy and blameless in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Timothy 1:9, Colossians 1:22).

To be reborn means a person is spiritually reconciled with God and can be in His presence forever (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).

To be reborn means a person has God living in them (John 14:17, Galatians 2:20, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19) who renews and changes a person to be more like Him. To be reborn means a person is a child of God because they are born of God (John 1:12-13).

To be reborn means Jesus takes away a persons sin and in return give them His righteousness (John 1:29, Romans 3:22, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Philippians 3:9)

To be reborn means a person will be aware of the Holy Spirit’s power, presence and will be able to hear Him even though they cannot see Him or always know what He is doing (John 3:8).

REGENERATION AND GLORIFICATION

To be reborn means a person will receive a new physical imperishable mind/body after they die (1 Corinthians 15:42, Philippians 3:21). This will occur when Jesus returns (1 John 3:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and will be created from our former perishable body (1 Corinthians 15:52-53, 1 Peter 1:23). Since this physical transformation takes place when Jesus returns (and not immediately when we receive the Holy Spirit), it is sometimes distinguished separately from regeneration and new birth (what is known as glorification; 1 Corinthians 15:40-43)
(Edited by Blackshoes)
1 year ago Report
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zeffur
zeffur: Posted Elsewhere:

re: "gg: "zeffur: I am against atheism & evolution because they teach us to imagine things that we can't prove and know for certain and then pretend & teach that our imaginations are true--even when we do not know that they are actually true. In other words, atheists/evolutionists teach & promote intellectual dishonesty/deception.".

So how does he believe in a god that he cannot prove exists?"
___________
There is ample evidence of God's existence that has been known for millennia & it continues to be known.

Abiogenesis & evolutionism are a proven 100% indefensible lie & fraud. Not one of you can PROVE or OFFER ANY SOUND CASE that either has ever occurred--& that is a FACT! Both are indefensible rubbish & you know it!

@BSr:
p.s.: Evolution is not important at all, actually. Advances in microbiology, spectroscopy, molecular biology, & pharmacology are all deserving in credit for the discovery of pathogens, medicinal treatments, & improvement in sanitation. Evolution played no significant role at all, as it is not real in any way at all. It is nothing but a conflated imaginary & indefensible con job without any usefulness in real science at all. It's really a form of Spiritual anarchy & terrorism via deception that some people aren't wise enough to see through.
(Edited by zeffur)
1 year ago Report
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