Quran (Page 5)

GeraldtheGnome: As lovely as it is to read every religious book, every religious book is about a belief, it is not something that you can pick up and tell everyone that everything in this book certainly is so. I instead go by what is good in every book that is void of any supernatural belief that either is only possible at best at least so far or already disproven. A Quran, a Bible and whatever other religious book you can find all have things in them that even the most hardcore non-religious person would like if he or she even bothered to do it.

Zanjan: Good point.

seri8888: This forum is for people who want to use the Quran as one of their guidelines for their faith.

We were sharing our views and understanding of the Quran translationS and interpretationS on some topics (1.Wife beating, 2. No death penalty for apostasy, 3. stoning, 4. hijab)

The head covering are everything people used and are still using to cover head, wimple, veil, Iitham, hat, habits, hijab, hat, wig(some Jewish women use wig for following the commandment to cover head) etc

Hence in this discussion we mentioned historical and cultural practice of head covering.

Gnome posted "I thought you were implying that men’s head gear was a veil also, if you weren’t then I am sorry for what I assumed was so."

Yes I did mention on page 3 (anyone can read back) about "veil for men", because not many people are aware of it since interpretation of the Quran (or any holy books) are almost always in patriarchy perspectives, the focus is on women when it come to head covering.

The topic however: - Is hijab being commands in the Quran?

Please don't bring other issues you have in other forums or with others chatters here.

I don't read gnome posts in other forums (yet), I did read some of Zan's forums.

I have no idea what gnome is on about on page 4 "..unprovoked Troll effort..'

"..Gnome is stabbed to death..the insults, swearing, slander.. Sometimes one paragraph is enough.."

I will delete any similar future unrelated post.

seri8888: I actually did watch Rita and Anjum few years back.

Anjum is right tho, about the Quran prohibit Alcohol.

Quran 2:219 - They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus God makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

Quran 4:43 - O you who believe! Approach not the the prayer when you are in a drunken state, until you know what you utter.

Quran 5:90 - O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone altars [to other than Allah], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.

seri8888: Some people interpreted Quran 5:90 as alcohol is allows as long as not up to intoxicated.

GeraldtheGnome: Nothing has changed in each forum. I addressed solely what you mentioned and nothing more than that so trying to tell me that I did the direct opposite is not so. It’s after all something that people who get frustrated for no good reason do. You brought up something that wasn’t in the Quran and because of that two people, in other words not just me, had to address what wasn’t about the Quran. If you don’t like something being about something that isn’t about the Quran then you never should bring up something yourself that isn’t in the Quran, if you want to lead by example about being on topic about the Quran all of the time then you too should always be on topic about the Quran all of the time instead of straying off the subject itself then being all high and mighty about it and then threatening me about it which is hypocritical.

I don’t agree with what you claim is this and that about certain things, I will however agree to disagree with you about them, now if you see something in the Quran that shows a good way to live your life then go for that way that is mentioned in there. Whether you apologize or not to me isn’t compulsory, just try to get along with me rather than attack me. The Quran can be used in any way, even to unite hostile groups and used in a way to calm them down, it however can not be used to bring about a perfect world so therefore we all must deal with the reality that not everyone will agree with us on everything. Maybe in the book it has something about how to properly deal with those who disagree with you, if so then you should read that bit. The Quran like any religious book can be misinterpreted or misused or both by some. I only want to find what’ are the best bits in it and when I’m away from it I want to be fair to everyone or at least try to. I find it interesting and unusual how many people sing out loud the verses of it rather than just saying the verses. That is what I noticed at the mosque anyway.

seri8888: " , just try to get along with me rather than attack me."
Where did I attack you? I was getting along fine, it seems you are angry with me, what about? If it about the two videos that I had deleted? I'll do it again if they were posted again.

Yes I was trying to stick to Quran only concerning the hijab topic. The definition needs to be clear and specific tho, good point, perhaps I should begin with giving definition and specifications

It's important to point out the culture and history of headcover. How is that related to the command from the Quran to cover (already explained it's cleavages not head as in hijab)? Coz, the Arabs were already wearing headcovers( different name for men and women head covering gear, not going to explain that coz trying to stick to hijab topic) and the word use in Quran is chest/cleavages not head or hair

seri8888: Going back to Alcohol/wine prohibition in the Quran, remember the word cover, khumur plural of khimaar?

The word use for or translated into the intoxican is from the word al-khamru =ٱلۡخَمۡرُ. The root khamara =خَمْر signifies to cover, hide, veil, ferment. The word al khamr =الْخَمْر = designates all substances that "cover" the mental faculties of an individual, anything that hamper our thinking ability in this case Alcohol.

GeraldtheGnome: Read it again, don’t claim that something isn’t so. Just chill out, relax, read your book, which is what this is about. The Quran is about treating the poor well and so on, let’s just move on, agree to disagree with the past on this forum. I’m interested to know what the Quran is about.

seri8888: Sure, moving on. Just make sure you're moving on too

GeraldtheGnome: Nothing has changed on this forum. The Quran always should be treated as it should be treated anyway.

Zanjan: The Quran is addressing drunkenness because alcoholism was a rampant problem in those days. Many wouldn't believe they were actually alcoholics. Not everybody could quit cold turkey and there were no detox centers.

Alcoholism is a serious epidemic in Western society today so we can relate to that, especially me. In a society that condones drinking as a normal way of life, it's hard to see the substance as being dangerous when used casually, ie. What's wrong with a glass of wine at the diner table? Well, it's what it can lead to when the quality of society is at a low ebb.

My religion forbids the use of any intoxicating drug or beverage without a doctor's prescription. That's fine if you were brought up in the faith's environment - far more challenging if one walked off the street and joined the faith in say, their late 20's or so. They've got many dysfunctional behaviours to change.

Lordy, how often I've heard newbies trying to justify taking only a tipple on special occasions or flavouring food with liquor. That's normal. In their mind's eye, no harm would be done; but, really, that's the same reasoning a junkie uses. The truth is, if you've abstained for long enough, the desire totally disappears; one doesn't even think about it.

I'm certain that's how new believers in Islam struggled too since the Quran is acknowledging that situation.

Zanjan: [7:33] Say, “My Lord has only forbidden open and secret indecencies, sinfulness, unjust aggression, associating ˹others˺ with Allah ˹in worship˺—a practice He has never authorized—and attributing to Allah what you do not know.”

GeraldtheGnome: So do you mean that the Quran included a kind of prohibition message within the Quran itself in order to stop any problems with the excessive use of alcohol much like what was attempted in the words of the constitution in the 1920’s of your country ?

Zanjan: I'm Canadian; our country never had Prohibition, despite the fairly strong Temperance Movement. You're thinking of the USA.

Prohibition was mandated by the state and executed by force. Whereas, the laws of Islam aren't enforced - believers are encouraged to willingly and lovingly obey. There are no police and no jails. It's a system of education, not a ruling party.

God carries believers in their weak moments as they make efforts to improve; the religious community is present to offer strength and reassure as much as possible. Many believers who drank behind closed doors weren't doing it to be deceitful - they were dealing privately with their own failings and didn't want to smear the reputation of the faith community.

I've seen people resign from a religion because of this one law. Some said they didn't feel worthy, due to their drinking failures; others chose drink over faith. We're all tested in some way.

Muslims aren't supposed to be judgy; they're supposed to be edifying the souls. Guilt is terribly crippling - we don't want to add insult to injury.

That's not to be confused with opposition - religious institutions have always had the power to eject the stirrers of strife and division from their congregations. Members can also be excommunicated for that.

GeraldtheGnome: Sorry, I forgot, it's just so many of the others are. Out of curiosity when did the first Quran appear in Canada and was it in English or Arabic ?

Zanjan: Google says the first Muslim came to Canada in 1851. They would have brought a Quran with them because every Muslim has one. It would have been in Arabic.

The Quran was first translated to English in the 17th century (a poor translation); wasn't possible for the average person to obtain it. In the 18th century, George Sale did a better translation, then in the 19th century John Rodwell improved on that. Still, all translations had shortcomings. Again, it was difficult to obtain a copy. Muslims didn't use it.

Similar to how medicine advanced, the greatest progress was made through a team effort, not one doctor. Likewise, the best translation was produced by a group scholarly effort.

Where I live, I couldn't get a translation until the late '80s.

seri8888: Are Hadiths books consider as holy books in Islam?
Yes, Hadiths books are consider as holy books in Islam.

How are Hadiths (books) different from the Quran?

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
QURAN AND HADITHS.

1) Quran is the words of God for those who believe

Hadiths are mainly the sayings and actions of the prophet Muhammad.

(Note* here the term hadith is use for both the saying and the actions of Muhammad ONLY, while other use the term Sunnah for his actions. Then there are others who use the term Sunnah to mean any data collected about Muhammad.)

2) Quran was written down and collected during Muhammad time but compiled into a book at 644–656 CE about 12 - 14 years after Muhammad death, by the caliph Uthman

Hadiths were collected and compiled into books around 8th and 9th centuries, between 200 to 400 years plus or minus after the death of Muhammad.

To complicate things futher, Sunni Scholar may also include words, advice, practices of Muhammad's companions.

In Shia, what are also consider as Hadiths include the words and actions of Muhammad's daughter Fatimah, his other family members known as the Ahl al-Bayt and the Twelve Imams, however this will not be included or refer to in the meaning of the word hadith/s in the discussion here

seri8888: Following Hadiths is NOT a must for me, for example the Quran commanded to dress modestly, so I make sure my dressing is not extravagant nor sexy.

The Hadiths however give more instructions, cover everything except face and hands or in some other hadith even the face.

So I might choose to wear Hijab but to me it is not compulsory but hey, I don't follow Islam, but trying to follow Quran.

seri8888: Doing online searched I find a list of English translations of the Quran
- Abdullah Yusuf Ali
- Pickthall
- Muhammad Asad
- Muhsin Khan
- Saheeh International (Ultra conservative translation)

seri8888: I use combination of translations. Zan and gnome which translation or translations are you reading?

Zanjan: Seri, I've compared individual translations and found them all wanting.

I only use translations that are produced by team scholarship, under the auspices of an agency which has earned a reputation for excellence.

Like the Encyclopedia Britannica, you don't ask who the team members are - you trust the impeccable work of the final entry; it's well- researched and scrutinized by numerous scholars who provide the edits; then it's unanimously approved.

For an online source, I recommend Quran.com

For a Paper book, it depends on what I’m after. Two works (with multiple editors) are study pieces with commentaries:
The Quran: A New Annotated Translation by AJ Droge
The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary by Seyed Hussein Nasr (you can download this free from the internet)

I do have a casual starter Quran – it’s a cheap paperback translation by N.J. Dawood – I marked it up and drew highlights in it for a quick recite. It has no commentary or footnotes.

The word "Quran" means "recital" (from the word Qaraa, meaning "to read" ) In it, Muhammad says "We have made the Quran easy to remember" [54:17]

Zanjan: Regarding the Hadith, I think we need to be careful about using the word “Holy”.

The word "Holy" means pure and sanctified - the Hadiths, by their very nature, definitely are not. They’re comments by random followers, generations away- third party stories, not first hand eye- witness accounts. They contain personal human opinions, not divine directives.

To Wit: The New Testament Bible - that's a Holy Book. You can't say the Old Testament is - you say the Torah is the Holy Book while all the rest of the OT writings are held sacred to the Jews and, of course, most Gentiles. The Quran is the Holy Book.

Here, I'll point out that Imams were Muhammad's successors. Muhammad's son-in-law, Ali, was the first Imam and, according to the Shi'ah belief, the first rightful Caliph; he had his own writings, a compilation of poems, lectures, and quotations. The most well known of these is the Naj al Balagha. I don't know if any other Imams had their own writings; if they did, one wouldn't look to the Hadiths for them.

Therefore, I suggest the right word is “sacred”, meaning “protected and respected", even venerated. You can hold anything as sacred but be careful who/what you worship.
Muslims hold the hadiths as sacred – that is,as their historical narrative but none of it can be verified.

seri8888: Zan, Quran.com is a good online Quran (original Arabic) with its English translation.

The difference between holy and scared..well looking at sharia laws and how many/majority of people practising Islam, I can see that Hadiths "commandment" are being used more e.g Hijab, wife "beating", death penalty for apostate and stoning (with death penalty for apostasy and stoning only being practiced in Islamic countries) , hence why the Hadiths books are also Islam "holy" books beside the one and only Quran.

Zanjan: Once we get into the post-Muhammad narratives, that history is fraught with disagreement, and the disagreement continues to break the faith into thousands of sects. In some cases though, it's almost impossible to avoid mentioning.

For example, when the Umayyads usurped the Caliphate (661-750 AD) they perpetrated many unspeakable crimes that severely damaged the reputation of Islam. They were worldly and tyrannical, ruling the empire for their own gain - much misunderstanding of Islam arose out of this situation before the dynasty fell. That's where the implementation of Sharia law occurred.

By the way, that was the beast spoken of by St. John the divine in the Biblical Book of Revelations.

We can't approach large angles of disagreement and find common ground. So, we have to address the Word of God without bias, availing ourselves of the scientific method of research, including for the cultural context.