Quran (Page 4)

Zanjan: [ 33:67] Oh our Lord! Indeed we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones and they misled us from the way of God.

[6] 116 ] But if thou obey most men in the land, from the path of God will they mislead thee

Zanjan: Just checked back - I missed a question -> “Quran for all places and times (how is that possible?)

Actually, only the spiritual truths in it are timeless; same for all the Holy Books. The narratives can be enlightening too but the social teachings must eventually become outworn and impractical, especially by the time the Book arrives at the farthest reaches of the planet.

Zanjan: Some Muslims say the Quran is the last and final Book; there will be no more Books. Other Muslims say “It’s the last Book until the “Great Announcement”. One is left to figure out what that Announcement is.

First, we need to look at whether or not Muhammad is the final Prophet ever. That notion doesn’t stand up. God has promised He will always send His messengers:

[7:33] Every people hath its set term. And when their time is come, they shall not retard it an hour; and they shall not advance it.

[13:38] To each term its Book. What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the Source of Revelation.

[23:43] Neither too soon, nor too late, shall a people reach its appointed time.

“A people” – people of the BOOK, as Muhammad calls those of different religions of God.

The above selections describe a “dispensation”, a set time for believers and all humanity to learn the lessons of the Revelation delivered. Every Revelation has a dispensation; at the end, God sends another Prophet with a new Revelation. This occurs roughly every 500-1000 years or so and is understood to mean the Spirit returns.

Until that dispensation is over, says Muhammad, "Don't say you know the Quran".

If the old religions had become insufficient for the people, why do they still stick around, never seeming to die?

The Quran answers:

[5:48] If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences.

GeraldtheGnome: Each to their own. This site is starting to remind me of a movie named Looper. No matter what I do on here it’s still a case of I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t, as it is for everyone else for that matter. When I agree with someone then I’m considered to be wrong by someone and when I disagree with someone then I’m considered to be wrong by someone.

Anyway the reason I haven’t told anyone what part of the book I prefer until I have read all of it.. I always like to read the earliest possible version that I can get access to as well. What does the Quran have in it about compulsive liars ?

seri8888: Wow so many topics
That's how forum goes, could be days and zero post then there are days like this.

One topic at a time, going back to hijab, gnome typed :
"I don't follow your concept of what a veil is. Either way I'm going to read the Quran from start to finish for the same reason I read the Hebrew book and The Bible."

My definition of veil here is hijab, the head and hair covering of women in Islam or what majority of Muslims believe to be as God commandments to Muslim women.

Here are some pics of hijab
https://au.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Awr9J.0VpUNiffQAZifpQyE5?p=hijab&fr=crmas&fr2=piv-web

seri8888: I acknowledged Zan and in part also gnome, had pointed that originally veil (not Muslims' veil aka hijab) was already a tradition before Muhammad time, for status symbol and for practicality living in desert environment.

However covering cleavages (chest) is what my understanding of the Quran commandment in this and not hijab (head/hair covering) as both men and women during Muhammad time were already wearing them.

And it is part of dressing modestly (covering cleavages not head) for women who follow the Quran commandment.(Please try not to be funny and said oh just covers her cleavages but open everything else aka almost naked)

However in the Quran, good deeds and right actions are more important that dressing modestly

Quran 7: 26 - O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

seri8888: ***The question and the topic Hijab aka women head covering is commanded in or not in the Quran is finished, atm for me.

We can go back if there is no topic about the Quran to be discussed. ****

seri8888: Reading the posts I picked up several new topics. Not saying we're discussing them right now, this is something we can go back to when this forum goes quiet.

1.Hadiths are not holy books? Sadly many Muslims put it in higher authority than the Quran and yes to them these bookS are very holy. (Btw my definition of Hadiths includes sunnahs as well, all the recorded heresay, the saying as well as actions of the prophet Muhammad, which he may or may not said or did. In another words historical records)

2. Is there any abrogation of Quran verses?

3. Did the Quran "says" it is the last revelation from God (in spiritual, moral, guidance, matter of faith)?
Yes I believe the Quran is for all places(people no matter where they're from) and times, yes only spiritual truth and guidance. It is a book of signs not a science book

seri8888: To gnome, ok, when you find your favourite Quran verse or verses please share it here and tell us why

Zanjan: Your posts jumped the cue, so I just want to add: Some of those are very pretty. Israeli Jewish women also wear a similar head covering in various styles.

ttps://www.pinterest.ca/pin/62909726021046417/

In some Muslim denominations, there is no head covering for women. Therefore, head coverings are strictly a cultural choice.

seri8888: Zan, yes some Jews and Christians still practicing head covering.

There is no Muslim denomination that said hijab is not compulsory for women. But some don't force them to wear hijab.

If you ask a Muslim women who is not wearing hijab, if God commanded women to wear hijab? She would probably said yes but I'm not ready to wear it yet.

If you ask her where in the Quran is the command/s, she either doesn't know or she will quote Hadiths and maybe Quran 33:59 and 24:31, where the word بِخُمُرِهِنَّ = bikhumurihinna is translated as hijab i.e. head covering instead of just a cover (khumur plural of khimaar)

Of course this is my experiences so, asking 6 to 8 people might not be enough and maybe the person you ask might told you no, the Quran doesn't Command head covering for women

seri8888: I missed one out, from Zan on page 3

4. Is there Sharia law in the Quran? Another topic we can discuss later, join in the topic que.

"There's no such thing as "Sharia Law" in the Quran. This term applies to state bylaws. They can't be imposed on anyone who doesn't live under a given Islamic federal jurisdiction"

GeraldtheGnome: Everything on this site is still the same way as it always was. I thought you were implying that men’s head gear was a veil also, if you weren’t then I am sorry for what I assumed was so. If we were born in Saudi Arabia we would think about Allah in the way that citizens there do.

When a culture or a religion rules someone’s life then I go against that religion or culture. There have been two television shows about religion here, the first one was about Christianity and the second one was about Islam. I hope that I can find a preview or an actual episode of the Muslim show.to show you. The next two paragraphs are about a biased fool who has double standards and sometimes lurks in the background before he singles me out for his unprovoked Troll effort.

This paragraph is to compulsive liar and hypocrite who mistakenly thinks that I’m wrong about everything because I don’t use political correctness in every way. Are you happy now ? I used a paragraph that was very large that you picked on me about and you never criticized someone else on that same forum who made a bigger paragraph than I did. Stop lying that I am a bully and that I am childish. You are the one who is and stop lying about everything else too. It was very sick to show me a video clip of a game where a Gnome is stabbed to death. The insults, swearing, slander and character assassination was unfair. You are under the stupid belief that anyone should be able to do that without being punished for it.

Sometimes one paragraph is good enough even if it is a big one, apparently though it’s only considered to be wrong if I do it.

GeraldtheGnome: When I have read all of the Quran I will tell you what are the best verses in it. I still prefer to read the earliest available version of each religious book.

Zanjan: Seri, I forgot about the European Catholic Nuns's habit, and medieval Christian women's head dress, called a wimple - exactly like a hijab until a coronette (wired form) was later fashionably added. They'd considered it inappropriate for a married woman to show her hair.

I find historical costumes interesting and noticed that the older a religion was, the more enveloping/elaborate the women's head coverings were.

Ancient illustrations of Muslim women showed them wearing either a head dress or a sheet of cloth, which could be shoulder length or full body length like a blanket. Sometimes they secured them under the chin, sometimes not.

Muhammad never used the word "hijab" in the Quran - the word was "hamar", meaning covering. This is what I meant about Muslim women not wearing a hijab - she could wear a lacy head piece or soft scarf left loose in front - nothing that would be described as a hijab.

Like you, I've asked many about their religion and found many are ignorant - doesn't matter which religion either. If Muslims didn't disagree between themselves, they wouldn't have had so many denominations as they do today.

Zanjan: GTG, everybody chooses something to rule their life. There's no escape.

One could choose work, or God, or family, or gaming, or contention or materialism etc. Whatever it is, it's bad when one messes up their priorities so they can't live a life of moderation in all things.

GeraldtheGnome: What is the worry is being controlled by the belief about a god, politics and so on. We should be in control about our beliefs instead of letting our own beliefs rule over us.

But anyway this is about a story, not how people react to that story and to any other story.

GeraldtheGnome: This is me contradicting myself, I did however tell you that I would show you a video.



Do not watch it right up to the end, over half of it has nothing on it except a photo.

Zanjan: What were these two doing together in the first place? Neither of them had learned how to communicate - that bodes ill for all of their relationships. They let their emotions rule. So much for self-discipline.

Engaging in religious dialogue is the next level - that is, an elevated conversation; so, neither should have attempted a discussion until they had learned the rules of engagement.
A combative attitude is destructive. They could have preserved what they had; now, they're no closer than strangers on the street.

Zanjan: When two people argue about anything, both are wrong. This is written in my religion's scripture, along with the guidance that if this situation arises, stop talking and walk away as friends. We don't tell somebody else to do that, we do it ourselves.

There is further scriptural guidance: It's ok to clarify, reason, and add new information but must be done with mindfulness and love. One shouldn't press their view.

We see a lot of repetition in the Quran yet that's because all these missives were each delivered on different occasions, addressing different subjects over a period of some twenty years.

GeraldtheGnome: Oddly enough as different as they were it's still very much like what you see in any political or religious forum on here, when the extreme of both sides clash they are too much alike in many ways even though they in a way have opposite views. I know that this is more of a political expression but it still applies to religion too, the horseshoe theory. In politics it's the far left versus the far right, neither side ever claims too be wrong, in religion it's the dogmatic atheists (which is a reference to those that are certain that all gods are made up) and the dogmatic theists (which is of course a reference to the certainly of at least one god). Of course if you want to be technical you can really break it up into dogmatic polytheists and dogmatic monotheists.In the case of the video, that I remember listening to it at the time, both sides thought that their versions of religion were right, to make it more complicated one had a rather left winged slant to her and the other had a very right winged approach.

In fact the one on in the Niqab or whatever the name is went to a beach and decided to preach about the Quran to non-muslims which was as welcomed as a wet fart in a crowded elevator. I myself would have told her to rack off.

Zanjan: In religion, we call it the "Boomerang Effect"..........that is, ever since we discovered that Australia exists.

GeraldtheGnome: Next you're going to tell me that 'The Ghan' is named after Afghans.

GeraldtheGnome: I never knew there was such a term. Though I’m interested in religious material for me it’s for research purposes, I told you what I believe elsewhere. I’m always baffled as to why some people are certain that a god is or isn’t made up. I understand that anything is possible so long as it hasn’t been disproven, when it comes to if at least one god isn’t made up then there is no certainty of that and there is no certainty the other way either.

Zanjan: Well, all scriptures refer to what the "false gods" are, calling them idols. Another word that means the same is "Ideals".

They are whatever *we* each think has the greatest power – we attach ourselves to that. We put it on a pedestal where it can do no wrong. Often, it’s inanimate objects like statues, material goods and money, but it could be sexy rock stars or some other person, particularly of rank, or rituals, spells or traditions, etc.

The Quran confirmed the Biblical verse, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” This is self-evident. Nevertheless, we forget we don’t know what’s best for ourselves. We’ve proven that time and again and nobody likes it when someone has smashed their idols. (It’s impossible to smash the true God)

Believers say the Creator knows what’s best and communicates that to us as needed. So, we must ask ourselves “ who/what have I permitted to be my creator?”