Quran (Page 3)

seri8888: Zan yes.

I used the meaning head covering or hair covering (meaning hair on the head for those trying to be funny) aka as hijab.

Looking at the definitions of veil as "an article of clothing or hanging cloth that is intended to cover some part of the head or face" is also a head covering like those wear by some western bride. Hmm, actually Chinese and Indian traditional bride also wear some sort of veil.

Going back on stoning.
Quran doesn't mention the punishment of stoning. The punishment for zina is lashing

Quran 24:2 -As for female and male fornicators, give each of them one hundred lashes..

Quran 24:3 -The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.

Quran 24:4 - And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient

Quran 24:5 - Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

seri8888: Where in the Quran, head or hair covering is commanded?

https://countercurrents.org/2022/01/veil-is-anti-quran/

Muslims call themselves the ‘people of the book’, meaning they follow this single book on religious (in my case faith) matters.

Religious people do not actually care what the scriptures say even as they hold it solemn but follow what they have been conditioned to believe.

It is important that Muslims reclaim the Quran, discarding the distorting interpretations by patriarchal men. That will be a key step in the struggle against Islamophobia.

The obsession with covering the body of the female is not exclusive to Muslims

The Quran’s view is the opposite of veil. It asks men and women to ‘wear your beautiful apparel’ in chapter 7 verse 31, and in the next verse it asks the reactionary men as to who has given them the right to forbid the beautiful things god has given men and women, which also marks a negation of asceticism.

Quran 33: 59 is usually used to show that Quran commaned women to veil themselves

Quran 33:59 - O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

It seem people who accused the Quran commanded veil for women forget this verse Quran 24:30 - Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do.

Quran 24:31 -..And say to the believing women to lower their gaze and to guard their private parts and not to show their beauty spots except that of it which is normally shown. They shall also cover their chests with their khimar

Khimar is translated as head covering/veil/ hijab. However the Arabic word “khumur” (plural of “khimaar”) simply means “a covering”. In other words, your shirt is a “khimaar” because it covers your chest. Your pants are a “khimaar” because it covers your legs.

seri8888: My personal view and experiences, I've seen women who wear hijab/veil and still be sexy coz their dresses are figure hugging and I have seen women who don't wear veil/hijab dress modestly.

To wear or not to wear hijab is a woman personal choice. It is wrong to force her to take it off as it is equally wrong to force her to wear it. Especially when to veil/hijab or not to veil harm no one

However if a person told me God commanded women to hijab/veil in the Quran I would totally disagree

The commandment for women to veil does not come from the Quran but from other sources

seri8888: I've always miss out on putting my room in every page coz the pages moved without me realising it until I've posted, by then it was already a few posts in next page.

Not a debate forum rather a discussion forum for people who want to use the Quran as one of their guidelines for their faith

No swearing and name calling.

Here's the chat room, I'll try to be in whenever I can
Chatroom: Quran

GeraldtheGnome: The veil, well only whatever is practical is what I am for. I did however hear one woman on television mention something about the Quran. Is it true, like she claimed, that the Quran does not include that the veil should be worn ?

GeraldtheGnome: She said that it wasn't in it.

seri8888: We must had posted at nearly the same time as you didn't read my posts, as it kinda answered the question before I had the chance to read your post

Before Muhammad time, there were already the practice of veiling, but it is not for modesty but as status symbol.

As well as those living in desert environment, covering head and or face is being practical for both men and women

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil

Elite women in ancient Mesopotamia and in the Greek and Persian empires wore the veil as a sign of respectability and high status.

VEIL FOR MEN
Among the Tuareg, Songhai, Hausa, and Fulani of West Africa, women do not traditionally wear the veil, while men do. Male veiling was also common among the Berber Sanhaja tribes.[21] The North African male veil, which covers the mouth and sometimes part of the nose, is called litham in Arabic and tagelmust by the Tuareg

My conclusion is that the commandment to veil is not from Quran but based on cultures and traditions either native or copied from others cultures, traditions and others religious practice (Judaism and Christianity) that are not base on the Quran.

GeraldtheGnome: The veil is not from the Quran, that is true.

seri8888: Isn't it strange that the Torah and the Bible command veiling but majority of the followers no longer practice it.

There is no such commandment in Quran but many (majority?) of Muslim women practising it, whether willingly or out of pressure from their families and society ( or community, depending on which country they live)

GeraldtheGnome: I don't follow your concept of what a veil is. Either way I'm going to read the Quran from start to finish for the same reason I read the Hebrew book and The Bible.

GeraldtheGnome: Isn't the Hadith what prompted many things that aren't in the Quran ?

seri8888: Exactly

GeraldtheGnome: Most people that think they are criticizing what's in the Quran are really criticizing what's in the Hadith.

Zanjan: The veil originated in ancient culture as a protective device. From there, it acquired cultural meaning.

In some tribal cultures, the people were not permitted to look upon royalty. They would have to kneel and bow their heads to the ground as royalty passed by; in other cultures, they could stand but would have to bow their heads and cast their eyes to the ground.

To look up was considered a challenge, as it is in the animal world. Generally, the king/queen didnt mingle with society - they were sequestered in their palace grounds, surrounded by the royal household and servants. Sovereigns were considered to be God's representatives on earth, and sometimes gods, themselves.

When they traveled, there was an advance contingent to announce their approach so people could stand back a good distance and show submission to their authority.

Later on, the women of the royal courts did go out into society, along with their handmaidens and bodyguards. They went to the markets and moved through the city. They wore the veil so the subjects couldn't see their faces even by accident - it was a message that people should stand back and not touch them.

GeraldtheGnome: My point is that it should only be used for practical purposes.

Zanjan: Who deems what is practical?

In religion, we see a law to wear a head covering only while worshiping God; this was for both men and women. Yet in another religion, the head covering was to be removed when worshiping. If you're visiting sacred places, especially in Israel, you'd better know which is which.

So, this isn't about modesty but respect for authority; your compliance represents your humility before greatness. When you stand in the presence of God, how do you present yourself? I reckon these changes in how to show respect were what people needed at the time.

In Muhammad's time, women in many cultures went bare-breasted and that's still true today in remote tribal communities. The covering of parts was certainly a measure of modesty as well as of civilized conduct. Nakedness tends to make others feel uncomfortable.

It's one thing to say "moderation in all things" but people still have to be told where to draw the line. The hijab, today, is an advertisement of one's religion, as surely as wearing a symbol in a ring or necklace. Some people use it to get a special pass but, for others, its an expression of their devotion...........meaning, they practice their religion, as opposed to those who merely belive things. These women aren't forced - they see the wearing of the hijab as an honour and reminder to be mindful.

It's difficult to believe that anyone would be offended by a head scarf - some of them are very colourful and beautiful. Even the Queen of England often wears one. Personally, I give no special treatment to anyone because of their apparel.

Now that I'm older, I really don't mind the idea of wearing tent-like robes, just not while I'm working with machinery or fire.

Zanjan: Ironically, we've been forced to wear masks for 2 years and we really don't like it. They're not easy to breathe through. If I lived in a country with lots of lecherously impulsive men, you can bet I'd be bloody happy to wear the burka. It's a great way to say "go away you creep".

So, again, we shouldn't think of unusual apparel as oppressive but as a protective measure when living in a debased, corrupted society.

Zanjan: Nevertheless, none of the Prophets of God encouraged their followers to attract undue attention to themselves - we don't want to turn our lives into a circus act. Read carefully and you'll see they tried to blend in only enough not to make a mockery of themselves.

GeraldtheGnome: If it’s needed to be worn it’s practical. Whether it’s Southeast Asia or Australia, it’s hot and humid, especially here in the State of Queensland so it’s actually a problem to wear one. Another thing, they shouldn’t be worn for religious and/or cultural reasons. In sand blown desert environments they are practical. Guess where they originated. Not in a cold climate or a hot and humid climate.

Zanjan: What with massive waves of human migrations over the last 100 years, you'd think we'd understand culture shock.

I was shopping in a city mall once and spotted a woman wearing a black burka - total coverage, even with the black net over her eyes. I reckon she'd only been in the country for a couple of days.
She looked very menacing. Maybe not as much if she'd been wearing white. Her husband was walking way up ahead, talking on his cell phone. He was wearing ordinary western clothing.

Like a fish out of water, no doubt the woman felt unwelcome. Of course, she wasn't the first woman here from her country - they just hadn't had a chance to tell her it wasn't necessary to dress like that here.

That's not a cultural or religious requirement. If it were, Muhammad would have ordered special attire and described it, like Moses did. The Mormons are Christians; both men and women, wear white shirts under their clothes for religious reasons. That's not in the Bible.

We have Hutterites here, who dress in 19th century clothing; the women cover their uncut, rolled up hair with scarves at all times. No one blinks an eye. Sikh men wear turbans to cover their uncut hair, and a ceremonial knife and comb. Nobody cares.

So, you can see how people can create their own ideals.

I don't think we should expect anyone to adapt according to our preferences. There are women who've been in our country for 20 years and still wear traditional folk dress.

Apologies - convo got away from the Quran.

GeraldtheGnome: What isn't in any religious book that is carried out by those that are for any religion or culture that isn't practical in many cases can't be and shouldn't be excused by anyone in any way. Don't think that people don't care about the attire of Sikh men, there are many reasons why, even a Brisbane, Queensland, Australia example, but this isn't really a forum about Sikhs, Christians, The Bible, veils and so on, this is a forum about The Quran instead. The form of grammar on this site is really unlike what I see almost everywhere else though. These still are text messages so we don't talk on here but I get what you mean.

One creep decided to burn The Quran and The Bible at the same time to see what burnt quicker.

Zanjan: Let's move on. Seri, I'm not sure if you're only looking at western misinterpretations or still including misinterpretations by Muslims, themselves.

Nevertheless, if it's truth we're after, we can't shy away from it and should handle it with good reasoning.

I want to reiterate that many of the misunderstandings from both the above arise out of passages from the Hadith, with westerners thinking it's from the Quran. The Hadith isn't a Holy Book - it's a collection of remarks, unverified stories and sayings by followers written long after Muhammad was gone over a period of several hundred years.

Only the Quran is Islam; Muhammad repeated that often. People should check to make sure what their reading is actually a Surah.

There's no such thing as "Sharia Law" in the Quran. This term applies to state bylaws. They can't be imposed on anyone who doesn't live under a given Islamic federal jurisdiction.

GeraldtheGnome: None of us here believe or even believed that The Hadith is a holy book, instead it’s a here’s what I want you to do and what I want you not to do Book, I’m not a fan of that, quite the opposite, The Quran however is a story book of what is believed to have happened.

GeraldtheGnome: More to the point The Hadith is a book based on the belief of what is believed should and shouldn’t be done by people from now on.

Zanjan: It's mostly a collection of gossip, some of it very unkind and crude. However, people are bound to write about their religion and no one can stop them - it's when one takes that as gold, they've fallen off the straight path.