NO AFTERLIFE

TheismIsUntenable: Suppose all religions were devoid of any promise of some eternal existence, would anybody still believe them?

In other words, how many people have somehow managed to dupe themselves into believing in this nonsense simply for the promised reward?

Zanjan: If my religion wasn't rewarding me right now, it would be useless. If there's no reward, there's nothing to spend. What is the coin of heaven? How can a useless religion become useful in the afterlife?

No religious scripture guarantees the afterlife will be a pleasant experience. It's all up in the air. Oh, I know some will say otherwise but the scriptures repeat again and again that we're accountable for everything we do - if we haven't done well, according to God, we wont be rewarded.

I don't make up God's mind for Him. My future in the afterlife is quite the gamble so it makes sense to be grateful for blessings received in the here and now.

TheismIsUntenable: Hello Zanjan.

What are some examples of these "rewards" you mentioned?

Zanjan: Sure. Note: I’m mentioning bestowals I didn’t deserve but desired, often secretly:

Help in a serious pinch/crisis – ie., providing solutions, ideas, food, unexpected money, the right words, assistance from others and strangers, locating lost things, unusual information, weather/environmental support, rescue from danger or immanent failure etc.

Gifts – ie., spiritual virtues, tests, direction, vision, purpose (a job), remedies, happiness, healing, consolation, justice, prosperity, serenity, joy, compensation for losses, forgiveness, mercy, knowledge, understanding, protection from self etc.

Sometimes I get what I ask for, sometimes not; but, later on, I usually find out why. Above all, I’ve remembered that gift-giving isn’t a one-way street.

TheismIsUntenable: Have you considered that these gifts might be mere coincidences? If so, what separates them from this?

Zanjan: If you mean "co-incidences" to be random events that sync by chance, no, absolutely not.

In the "Help" section, everything on that list came to me at exactly the right time to fill the right need, with zero input from me - I definitely had no means to pull them off. Many would call them miraculous or freak accidents. They're surgically precise so impossible to shrug off as head tripping. Even an atheist would be dumbfounded at the intelligence behind them.

That's what makes them so memorably beautiful - there's a story to go with each of them that defies explanation by anyone. In the recounting, you'd see for yourself how they're separated from casual events.

The spiritual "Gifts", in the second section, are well-known by the practicing faithful - nothing unique to me. They're incoming on a regular bases; except for the "tests" and "justice", there's no timing involved. Sometimes, I've had to wait a long time for those, even years; at other times, they've swiftly arrived. Some stories there as well.

Zanjan: One last thing about tests and justice - sometimes one does have to connect the dots. When successful, one has concrete proof that God knows in advance what we each need. In hindsight, we can see exactly how He set it up well in advance of our knowing it.

TheismIsUntenable: "there's a story to go with each of them that defies explanation by anyone."

If a friend told me an interesting story along these lines I would just say huh that's interesting. I wouldn't be sitting there trying to break it down and refute it by introducing a rational explanation. I would just find the entertainment value in it and move on.

Suppose that I am able to offer an alternative explanation that doesn't rely on the supernatural. Would there even be a point in doing so? In other words, would the presence of an alternative explanation cause you to question your stance?

If not, I don't see the point in delving into your anecdotes (outside of entertainment value of course)

"The spiritual "Gifts", in the second section, are well-known by the practicing faithful - nothing unique to me."

Well I think there are many faithful who are not receiving gifts who would disagree, unless you're merely talking about the warm feelings and comfort you get from your faith?

Zanjan: My stories don't require an explanation. I just tell them and let others receive them as they wish.

At Wire, I've introduced some of them as examples of a point I was trying to make. Some people are rather thick in the head and still don't get the moral. You know that if you have to explain the punchline, you'll be refraining from sharing with them in future.

Zanjan: "would the presence of an alternative explanation cause you to question your stance? "

Possibly, if their explanation seems to have merit, I'd look into that. An example would be dowsing for water. It looks rather witchy because some can't do it yet it always works for me.

I have no explanation but someone came along and explained how water has electrical and kinetic energy..........I knew that part was true but I couldn't find proof for the the next connections he made. For the interim, I found that to be a plausible answer as surely as I'm a conduit for a lightening strike. Nothing supernatural.

Anyone can feel warm and cozy visualizing themselves somewhere on a tropical beech or watching puppies play - that's hardly enduring. Some derive comfort from the texts; that only works if one actually believes it. Like the placebo effect, do we really care how it works as long as we get the desired results?

Some will say its simply mind over matter - yes, it is. The key here is sustaining that. If it's coming from yourself, it requires focus, mindfulness and deliberation. If it's coming from God, the comfort is enduring - one doesn't ask for something they're already getting.

I agree, many believers aren't getting those gifts; then how can one identify them as being among the faithful? If you don't practice, if you don't do, you don't get.

TheismIsUntenable: "At Wire, I've introduced some of them as examples of a point I was trying to make."

I'm not sure if you mean that these stories were evidential or allegorical.

"Possibly, if their explanation seems to have merit, I'd look into that. An example would be dowsing for water. It looks rather witchy because some can't do it yet it always works for me."

OK, seems reasonable. I would say if you genuinely think dowsing is real and that you can do it for you to have a friend or family member setup a little experiment. I assume you're talking about using dowsing rods to locate water.

So get 10 opaque buckets and have the family member fill a few of them with water while you're stowed away in a room somewhere. You come out and have to locate which ones have water and which do not. You should be far greater than chance in your results. If not, well perhaps this isn't a genuine ability.

"Like the placebo effect, do we really care how it works as long as we get the desired results?"

Surely it is important to note a distinction between a placebo effect and a real one? If I tell a child they will be strong from eating broccoli every day it might be a good ruse to get them to eat broccoli and they may "feel" as though it is working but we should be distinguishing the difference between real effects and imagined ones.

"If it's coming from yourself, it requires focus, mindfulness and deliberation. If it's coming from God, the comfort is enduring - one doesn't ask for something they're already getting."

I understand this but would point out the ideomotor effect. There are things that you do subconsciously that you're not really aware of but you're still doing them.

"I agree, many believers aren't getting those gifts; then how can one identify them as being among the faithful? If you don't practice, if you don't do, you don't get."

My thought here was that there is an abundance of destitute and indigent people on this planet, many of which are children, who are desperately pleading to their god of choice to help them. They genuinely believe in this entity but are not receiving assistance in the manner you would say that you are.

Zanjan: Re: dowsing for water. Your experiment could work if "smell" is how one finds the water. I don't think that's it since I know what my nose can do. Perhaps a physicist might be interested in playing with that. Personally, I only care about results and I get 100% accuracy.........some people don't have that high percentage of success.

You can't set up the right experiment if you don't know how it works. It works for oil as well. It goes nuts at the back of my property because the earth is laced with coal shale. It's amusing to see water resistant dirt. Spray it with the garden hose, and the water just slides off it.

This method was discovered in the 1500s and was though to be magic:
One has to walk across the ground slowly with a long, forked willow branch pointed straight out from the body and continue walking until the prongs pull down toward the ground. That's where you stop - the water or oil is below the feet.

I've been doing this since I was young and many people have watched me. I've tried it with two metal rods set into in a metal canister; with those, the rods are parallel, pointing straight out, then swing wildly away from each other when standing over water. In this experiment, there is no human contact with the implement. It doesn't make any difference what I use, it still works.

"we should be distinguishing the difference between real effects and imagined ones."

Hmmmmm.......what is the difference when the effects are identical?

When the mind can override body chemistry, I'd say the mind is more powerful than synthetic chemicals. In the case of spiritual power, there's the question of who's mind is the operating influence. It might well be a collective.

The ideamotor effect applies to one's physical movements. I don't see how "comfort" is a physical movement, especially a subconscious one.

Comfort could be a physical sensation, like one gets when wrapping a heated blanket around their cold body. Even if you don't need the blanket, there's a spill over calming effect - that's why they do it to patients in the hospital.

One could get that just by watching a fire burn in the fireplace. It's not subconscious.

Zanjan: “there is an abundance of destitute and indigent people on this planet, many of which are children, who are desperately pleading to their god of choice to help them.”

It's important to remember God isn't our servant - we are His.
One shouldn't assume starving people are all praying for exactly the same thing - the faithful understand that God already knows what they need.

We may not be able to control our situation but we can control how we roll with it. The hungry can be very resourceful and help others who are worse off than they are. When you're poor, you make do with what you have and you can still be happy. Do or die, God always provides something.

TheismIsUntenable: "Your experiment could work if "smell" is how one finds the water. I don't think that's it since I know what my nose can do. Perhaps a physicist might be interested in playing with that. Personally, I only care about results and I get 100% accuracy.........some people don't have that high percentage of success."

I don't see why smell would be a factor here. These buckets would all have lids and be sealed. You would go over each one with the dowsing rods (or willow branch) and attempt to use the rods as your tool to determine if there is water in there or not (or oil) whatever you think gives you a better shot.

"Hmmmmm.......what is the difference when the effects are identical?"

Well obviously if the effects are identical there is no difference. That's why pharmaceutical trials are pitted against placebo because you want to prove that your drug is really effective.

"The ideamotor effect applies to one's physical movements. I don't see how "comfort" is a physical movement, especially a subconscious one."

If you can actually be unaware of muscle movement, you can certainly be unaware of things that happen in your own brain.

"One could get that just by watching a fire burn in the fireplace. It's not subconscious."

There are many brain hacks like this. Rubbing your wrist is another one for calming yourself.

"When you're poor, you make do with what you have and you can still be happy."

Or you just starve to death.

Zanjan: God helps those who help themselves.

When there's famine in the land due to say, lack of rain, people walk out of it to find food in another territory. Usually, they're successful. Today, we have numerous relief agencies to help the incoming hungry to its camps.

Let's say people are starving because of siege; if they're prevented from moving, who is to blame?

In these two scenarios, which would likely be the godless folks and which would be those sent by God?

Zanjan: So, you don't mind straying off topic?

On topic, I'm not fond of the word "afterlife" as it suggests deadness - that is, what's left after one has once had life. What is life, after all? What of the breathing, talking people who have no life?

I use "Hereafter" : Since both planes of existence are connected, technically, we don't go anywhere; instead, we become fully aware of the other plane. Additionally, we have no idea WHO will be living what kind of life after they pass on. We've only been told what the approximate range is and what those in the top range will be doing.

TheismIsUntenable: I'm not Blackshoes. Generally I'm just responding to whatever comments exist regardless if they are "on topic" or not.

There are individuals like babies/small children who aren't really capable of "helping themselves" that are just as fervent in their faith as you are yet receive no gifts. That was my only point.

"What of the breathing, talking people who have no life?"

yeah about them...

"I use "Hereafter" : Since both planes of existence are connected, technically, we don't go anywhere; instead, we become fully aware of the other plane."

I'm not following. So my understanding of the whole concept here is that your body dies and some mechanism exists for "you" to persist. Call it a soul or spirit or consciousness doesn't matter really - it's all the same thing (to me). It doesn't persist in this Universe though, it persists elsewhere. Whether that's another dimension or another Universe or even something that hasn't been conceptualized, who knows...

But you don't seem to think this, or at least that's not my impression from your comment here. Want to elaborate a bit?

Zanjan: How do you know babies have faith? They don't know how to talk.

I do know small children can have faith because I was once a child and I did. There was no reason for me not to have faith so, I prayed as I was taught by my foster parents.

However, I didn't yet know the right things to pray for. For instance, when I prayed for food, it came or, I got the idea how to get it and it worked. Otoh, when I prayed for a bicycle, I didn't receive one until 6 years later. No, it didn't fall out of the sky - dad got a deal on it second hand because it didn't have any brakes. Had to fix those. Beggars can't be choosers.

TheismIsUntenable: I think you get my point though. Make it toddlers or kids if you like. There are fervent believers receiving NO help. Nothing. They just starve to death.

Zanjan: You posted in a bit of a rush...

The mechanism to continue existing after the body dies is the *soul* - you've got that right so far. It helps to know what a soul is. Then you can understand where it is.

See, when you were conceived in the womb, this was the time your soul was created and associated with your body as your identity. It's not mere consciousness or spirit - animals have both but they don't have a soul.

The soul is the intangible, otherworldly substance which is the faculty of the intellect. This has amazing powers so consciousness and spirit persist in it. The soul can move and stay still at the same time; it can grow or shrink - depends on what you feed it.

The universe envelopes both planes of existence but we, here on earth, are focused on the physical plane. There are veils between us and that other dimension for good reason.

Zanjan: Like I said before, where people are starving to death, we're in no place to say what else they're getting. Same as for the full-bellied people who die from their injuries after an earthquake.

Sudden death doesn't leave time to think, but a slow dying permits one to get their affairs in order and to resolve a lot of issues, providing a chance to get right with their Maker before their last breath.

TheismIsUntenable: I didn't understand any of that.

Zanjan: Well, some things require pondering. It takes time for certain things to sink in even when one does understand what's being said.

TheismIsUntenable: Anybody can posit alternate dimensions and spirits and what not. What interests me is evidence. If I wanted fiction, I'd just watch a movie.

So for example this phrase does not seem coherent:

"intangible, otherwordly substance"

If something is intangible then it isn't a substance, because substances are tangible.

Zanjan: What are radio waves then?

TheismIsUntenable: Radio waves are part of the EM spectrum. They are not a "substance".