Faith – A Conflict- free Zone (Page 2)

Zanjan
Zanjan: There's another topic for discussing political issues. Here, we'll stick to historical facts and current events. Granted, I did write an opinionated description of ISIS; maybe I shouldn't have but it was handy to address the meaning of legitimacy.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I think the question of "rights" should hinge on justice. Justice is a divine attribute so needs to be studied carefully. Today, people are touting a new right nearly every month; so many, one wonders who's the busy inventor.

Curiously, you don't see any mention of "rights" in scripture, although we believe we've got God-given rights - the right to live, work, marry, have children, basic needs (food, water, shelter, clothing) to be buried respectfully, and to worship. There are guidance's about these in scripture but it's never framed as a "right".

Back in the time of Moses, worldly people clamored over those. They believed they had the right to avenge a wrong done to themselves or a family member. God informed them saying "Vengeance is Mine".

Their idea of justice was to extract an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth etc. Jesus tried to get a new idea across - that the punishment should fit the crime but not identically. They needed to learn empathy. Thus, He taught not to throw stones at sinners as long as we're a sinner too.
How would they feel about justice when it's aimed at them? Would they still love it then?
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: It's still a fact and it is what is so in Russia, it is political and it is religious too, it's also all I wanted to mention about the subject.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, from the above, we understand that God has rights - some of those don't necessarily extend to humans. That's where religion comes in - to explain this relationship.

What we have is certain responsibilities to God and our fellow man.

Once we respect that God's rights transcend our own, the sign one has grasped this is when one is willing to set aside their own, human rights for the good of all. Surprisingly, that isn't a painful thing.
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jzuma1
jzuma1: Yes
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: To Zanjan. Where and when was your religion started ? What form of writing did the author use ?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Persia (Iran), 1844: the Bab was the Herald of Baha'ullah, Who publicly announced the Baha'i Faith in 1863. They were contemporaries. For the first time in human history, there were twin Revelators.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "form" of writing - Baha'u'llah was an excellent calligrapher; being a Prince, His lettering was in a style used only by the royal family. He illuminated many of His tablets with tremendous skill.

He penned His Revelations in majestic and poetic language in Farsi and Arabic. That is, with the grammar using "Thee", Thou" and so forth - the utterance of scripture, which reflects the Ancient Beauty.

You know, not many people know what those words mean so, they've erased them from most Bible translations, thinking it's merely antiquated verse. Not so. It's the most honourable way to address someone. I think it's sad publishers have reduced the divine loftiness of the Creative Word by replacing it with common conversational speech.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Speaking of language, here’s a true story:

Back in the 80’s (before the Internet was a thing), my city was celebrating its first documentary film festival. I helped set up a kiosk in the hallway, tightly packed with other kiosks. Directly across from my spot was the Muslim booth so I walked across and struck up a chat, telling the fellow how happy I was to see them there.

My eyes turned to a large, open Quran sitting on the desk. I asked where I could find one, I’d been looking for years as I’d wanted to read it. "Well", said the turbaned fellow, "you can get one at a mosque but you have learn Arabic to read it".

Dismayed, I asked why. He replied that Muslims didn’t believe it should be translated as that would change the text, which they wanted to preserve. After all, they'd been successful for 1.5 millenniums.

Naturally, that was worth a discussion. I explained that it would take me half a lifetime to learn Arabic, a complex, difficult language, plus learn a new script. In the end, I’d get a rather loose read from the book – not what Muhammad would like. This wasn’t practical.

I suggested that surely, they could gather some fine Muslim scholars to translate to English, agreeing on the translation to effect authorative consistency; it would likely sell well in local books stores, as does the Bible. I pointed out they were keeping the Word of God from people - would God like that? Well, he was a nice fellow and admitted this was a modern problem.

Two years later, the Quran was translated to English and I got one of the first copies. God moves in mysterious ways.......well, maybe not quite so mysterious.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Faith is having the vision to perceive what humanity needs today and working hard to meet those needs. We can't all be doing the same things but we can all have the same aim. I have complete faith we can do that co-cooperatively in the Cause of God.

What do you think is the greatest need or needs right now?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: What I was getting at is that God is an Early English name from The Middle Ages, with the original man who started off your religion he did not use (by then) the then current form of English, he used the name for him that he referred to him as instead, just as The Muslims, Christians and others before him all of the various names for the same that the Jews believe in is not even nearly the same (in most cases) as the original name that the Jews named the same god. Sure each one worships that god in a different way but your name isn't Ciowash or anything like it. If the god originally worshipped was under a different name completely than any name that you use then it's using the wrong name for the worshipped god. Now why I used Ciowash was for a reason, hypothetically let's just pretend that your name is Zanjan rather than it being a nickname. If you go to anywhere in the world then isn't your name still Zanjan or a derivative of it rather than a name that is nothing like it ? I don't agree with what you believe in a religious sense, but I am not on about that. I am on to wonder why everyone who isn't a Jew who is into Judaism worships a god that most Jews worship yet use a completely different name than they do. Again Ciowash is nothing like Zanjan (if your real name was Zanjan) and God is nothing like the name that the Jews of Judaism use for the same god that you worship.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "God" is the English word for "deity" - it's not a name. When it's capitalized, that indicates the deity is a living Being, rather than a force. When it's not capitalized, it represents whatever one worships.

God has more than 350 different Names - none of them change who He is, even when those Names are translated to English. Each Name represents only *one* of His many attributes.

Zanjan isn't an English name - it's Persian and its meaning doesn't necessarily reflect who I am, although it could. That wasn't the reason I chose it.

I take it you don't have an answer to the question at hand. That makes it impossible for one to work towards rehabilitating the fortunes of mankind. Surely we all think that needs to be done. The problem is apathy but the key to unlock that is knowing where to start.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: That’s not true, god in the lower case is a reference to any deity, god when it’s God in the uppercase is a name, not a title or a nickname, many get the misconception that God in the uppercase is only a reference to a title or a nickname, it’s actually due to the fact that the originator of each language and form of writing when a Jewish based religion was introduced to their part of the world decided to come up with a new name that was and still is nothing like the Hebrew name all because of a deliberate disassociation with the original religion as much as possible. Sure your religion and other religions have many titles for the god or gods (with the polytheists) that the believers believe in and that is totally fine. The problem in the world right now is not so much apathy than hatred.

In the past it was more so that if you were in a minority you were picked on by the worst minor section of the majority who has some authoritative control over the minority and the majority, most people in the past weren’t against a religious minority or any other majority yet they, just like now, weren’t in a good enough position to make a difference or at least a significant difference. You yourself are unable to stop Blackshoes from unfairly deleting your own messages because those that can stop him don’t want to. That one is an example of mixture of hatred by him who stupidly thinks you have a horrible religion and that he has a religion that is superior than your religion which is the only true religion.

In reality it’s on even par with yours. Since this site is controlled by the politically correct far left wing they rarely delete anything and/or ban anyone because they’re too obsessed with being worried that they are anti-religion or anti something else so instead of concentrating on the bad behaviour of the individual and putting the religion or the politics or whatever aside they only go against someone when they are personally against someone most of the time. One of the people on here could have sorted out problems I have had in forums by others including what Bob has done to you and I but instead he doesn’t want to because I don’t agree with him fully with every queer community issue he is for even though I never have brought up any of it with him.

Vladimir Putin is one of the old fashioned us and them people who picks on the minority then acts all good and religious by using Bible passages to justify his appalling behaviour militarily, you are nothing like that, you at least try to get along with everyone. I see people by the way each person is like, not by the gender, race, skin colour, political stance, sexuality or religion of the person. Today in many parts of the world the far left who are male, white, straight and on-religious have vilified themselves thinking that they are guilty of the sins of others who are dead or alive who have done the wrong things where special preferences should be given to religious and political minorities as well as to females and to the queer community. Instead everyone should be treated fairly. The us and them has to stop. Your religion is interesting to me. Everyone should appreciate what they have in common instead of only what personally matters to them is all that matters. The far left and the far right unfortunately control other people of authority to a degree as well as some of the general public. If a male does something that a female dislikes then he’ll be labelled a a sexist whether he is or not or worse as a rapist even if it isn’t true that is why less men work as teachers and why less men ask a female out due to any false claim of sexual harassment because he flirted or ask someone out. Even yourself maybe, maybe others of your religion and of other religions are falsely labelled as homophobic due to the myth that if someone is religious then they hate those that aren’t straight. Myself and others should be able to criticize anyone religious or non religious so long as it’s done fairly,, non religious people and religious people with you included should be able to criticize me so long as it’s done fairly. Blackshoes is a right wing religious not, your religion is not worse than his. Critisizing his religion fairly results in getting punished by him.

At the moment I don’t see that humans are fortunate in any way, making others feel superior whilst making themselves and others of a majority and/or that are male feel inferior as the far left do is no better than the far right making themselves feel superior whilst making others seem inferior. It’s no longer about the religious versus the non religious. I hope that everyone within on your own religion don’t have a far left or far right way of thinking. You have my support against Blackshoes. There’s no need or reason why we should agree with each other on everything. Those that try to agree with everyone on everything end up agreeing with no one at all. I’m sorry for my long message.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I'll ask you one time only - please don't bring up personal issues with other posters anywhere on Wireclub. Likewise, this is not the place to refer to Wire's policy.
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: It’s what’s happened to you and to others so it’s not exactly personal, I see them as people on here, not as posters, they are the types we both have personally have had experiences with as have others. That’s the last I wish to bring up about it. Where did the name of your religion come from anyway ?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Sharing one's opinion is fine as long as it's not done in a confrontational manner; that's bound to escalate into conflict. Furthermore, backbiting makes things worse for everybody - it poisons the air we breathe.

The people of faith aren't rebellious or combative because God has given them other means to communicate and make progress.

Instead, we choose a learning stance, asking questions. That means we should consult together, looking for spiritual solutions to fix social issues. That's a working principle as long as we don't let emotions interfere. All religions teach personal discipline - it's extremely effective.

"Jealousy consumeth the body and anger doth burn the liver: avoid these two as you would a lion."
~ Baha'u'llah

Baha'i translates to English as "followers of the Glory".
(Edited by Zanjan)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: There are as many rebellious and combative people on both sides, if you don't believe me then let me quote what Vladimir Putin said the other day or better still show you the video of it. Learning is fine and wanting glory is fine too, I still though am baffled as to why you choose the English name for the god who originated from the Jews. Jealousy maybe rampant in some as the quote tells us, so too anger, just keeping everything in balance in fine. What we have both did is for the right reasons as cryptic as I am being here. The bet quote that I can think of for everyone in your religion, for you, for myself, for other religious people and for the non-religious people is not a quote by anyone religious, instead just the said words "Be excellent to one another" sums everything up really. Evil happens when good people do nothing as well, there are two sides to each coin after all so everyone has to take the good and the bad without the bad overwhelming us and making us evil or allowing it by doing nothing. As I mentioned everything the good always comes with the bad and another thing is that sometimes we need to use multiple methods to at least try to resolve whatever can be resolved and possibly resolved.

The last time I was at the Buddhist Temple there was a meeting with Hindus, Catholics, Buddhists and at least apart from that one from your own religion. It was a good day while I was within the Temple, I found it relaxing and enjoyable.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I love multi-faith gatherings. There, I see some mighty fine people - the best religion has to offer. There, I feel right at home. Yes, the world could use a lot more of those.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You’d think there wouldn’t be any shortage of opinions for what the world needs but look – days have passed but nobody has any ideas??

We’re facing multiple, major global issues right now – the flood is upon us and the waters are rising but people are distracted by fighting. They don’t realize how deeply interdependent we are – that whatever happens on one side of the planet, happens on the other side.

Of particular urgency is the need to understand the term “the oneness of mankind” – it’s not just a racial or gender issue anymore. It’s about our way of life and our world view.

We need to forget suspicions and not be misled by paranoia and conspiracy theories – those have no vision. We need to abandon excuses and self-interests because these can’t build a sustainable community, much less a stable world.

How do we fix this? What can we have faith in? Let me begin with a sobering thought to contemplate:

“Every created thing in the whole universe is but a door leading into His knowledge, a sign of His sovereignty, a revelation of His names, a symbol of His majesty, a token of His power, a means of admittance into His straight Path.”

(Baha’u’llah)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Elsewhere in the forum, somebody defined what a “person” is. We thought we knew. It wasn’t so long ago that slaves and women were objects, not persons. Once we realized that all humans were persons, we asked other questions. Are animals persons? Is the Holy Spirit a person. Is God a person?

The personage question suggests we’re still needing to know who we are; once we know, we can have faith in our relationships with each other, with God, and with the planet.

If anyone can answer wisely, its our North American Indigenous people – they’re the chief stewards of environmental protection. They say our planet has taught us.

Let me take you to one of the most interesting talks you’ll ever hear: Robin Wall Kimmer, celebrated author of “Braiding Sweetgrass”. She’s a botanist. Here, she presents the Teachings of Plants: Finding common ground between traditional and scientific knowledge. She gives us some insights into how to create an equitable economy and building a sustainable way of life.

Skip forward to 6:25 on the tape. Enjoy.


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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: All of that is what you believe to be true. I’ll agree to disagree. However apart form minor grammar errors it’s people instead of persons, that’s just a modern mistake that a lot of people make. What is of a major concern is the likes of Recep Erdogan in Turkey and the religious dictator in Iran, I’ve forgotten how to spell the title that he has. There’s also Vladimir Putin’s religious quote in a feeble attempt to justify what he brought about in The Ukraine.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: The Taliban as well as them too.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You're looking at heads of state - complaining or trying to fix them has never worked. They can be informed about what cultivates prosperity but that's the best we can do at that level. Heads of state are rarely the leaders, likewise for heads of religions.

The real leaders come from all walks of life; they're creative individuals who don't hold high positions but are called to meet a need; most often, they're not paid to do it. If you're not a born leader, you can still be an influencer, a positive one.

Change begins at home, teaching ourselves and our children; from there, a new mentality will permeate the community, then spread to the city, then the nation, then the world.

While the old institutions are crumbling and destruction seems to highlight every week, we're not laying waste to the world with no way out. We're becoming enlightened. Whether some realize it or not, we're building a new kind of civilization right now, directed by the Will of God.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: I'm stating just what is so and you can't put all of that down to a 'will of God' statement. That's only ever used by those that don't know what to make of it. The point is that they use religion in a way that is convenient evil agenda, most other people who are religious don't do that. God is still a medieval name anyway, the one that started your religion never used it in his own language and writing and that of all other religions based on Judaism never used the name before The Middle Ages, even now it's only a name in English, Dutch, Frisian and Afrikaans.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: All prophets of God have used the word "God" in their own language - it's not a name, it's a rank. Additionally, they've mentioned the Names of God - those are His attributes.

There are always going to be individuals who try to use religion as well as any other agency for their personal gain; that's unavoidable. They'll be dealt with. Meanwhile, it's quite the reach to suggest the whole religion is false or corrupt because of that.

When religions get old, they naturally lose steam; consequently, their power to affect change in the world disappears. This is stated in all scriptures - that's not news. However, they can endure if they work co-operatively with other religious communities to do good in the world. They are, one and all, agencies of service to mankind.

We can and will most certainly discuss the Will of God in a subject devoted to "Faith". If you have none, there's little to nothing you can offer here. If you have some, then state it.
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: No they don't. They use a name that refers to their name for the god that they believe in.
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