Re- Are Heaven and Hell really places?

Apokalupto
Apokalupto: This is in response to isaacnd200s thread post titled "Are Heaven and Hell really places?" He falsely claims that they are not.

Since isaacnd200 has deleted all of my evidence from the Greek New Testament showing the Greek text itself i'll re-post it here.

(Edited by Apokalupto)
2 years ago Report
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto:
isaacnd200 claims that

"en" is figurative
"eis" is literal (not used with Heaven and Hell because supposedly they aren't real places)

Let's look at the Greek New Testament and test this out.

First we will prove "ἐν/en" is used literally, too.

Matt 26:6
Now when Jesus was in (ἐν) Bethany, in (ἐν) the house of Simon the leper,
Matt 26:6
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γενομένου (ἐν) Βηθανίᾳ (ἐν) οἰκίᾳ Σίμωνος τοῦ λεπροῦ,

There are plenty more verses that use "en" in the literal sense.

Lets look at "εἰς/eis" he said eis is literal.


Luke 2:15
And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into (εἰς) heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Luke 2:15
Καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἀπῆλθον ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν (εἰς) τὸν οὐρανὸν οἱ ἄγγελοι, καὶ οἱ ἄνθρωποι οἱ ποιμένες εἶπον πρὸς ἀλλήλους, Διέλθωμεν δὴ ἕως Βηθλεὲμ, καὶ ἴδωμεν τὸ ῥῆμα τοῦτο τὸ γεγονὸς, ὃ ὁ Κύριος ἐγνώρισεν ἡμῖν.

eis used with hell (hades)

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in (εἰς) hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27
Ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου (εἰς) ᾅδου, οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν.

Again

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in (εἰς) hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:31
προϊδὼν ἐλάλησε περὶ τῆς ἀναστάσεως τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὅτι οὐ κατελείφθη ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτοῦ (εἰς) ᾅδου, οὔδε ἡ σὰρξ αὐτοῦ εἶδε διαφθοράν.

Lets look at the lake of fire for good measure. Again, according to isaacnd200 we shouldn't see eis (εἰς) being used here unless it's literal.

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into (εἰς) the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Rev 20:10
καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη (εἰς) τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

Lets look at Gehenna.

Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into (εἰς) hell (Gehenna); yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 12:5
ὑποδείξω δὲ ὑμῖν, τίνα φοβηθῆτε. φοβήθητε τὸν μετὰ τὸ ἀποκτεῖναι, ἐξουσίαν ἔχοντα ἐμβαλεῖν (εἰς) τὴν γέενναν. ναὶ λέγω ὑμῖν, τοῦτον φοβήθητε.


Luke used eis, lets now look at that parallel passage in Matthew and see what prepositions he uses.

Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (ἐν) hell.
Matt 10:28
καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεινόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι. φοβήθητε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι (ἐν) γεέννῃ.


Luke 12:5 and Matthew 10:28 use different prepositions for "in hell" for the SAME parallel verse. So much for isaacnd200s false theory.


It's so easy to disprove false teachers if we simply shine the light.

You´re welcome. Have a nice day.
(Edited by Apokalupto)
2 years ago Report
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ipirate2
(Post deleted by Apokalupto 2 years ago)
Apokalupto
Apokalupto: If your posts are going to ignore the topic and instead use this for a pulpit to preach another religion it will be deleted. If you want to stick around then confine your conversation and arguments to the topic, to the usage of the two Greek prepositions stated above.
(Edited by Apokalupto)
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youarewell2
youarewell2: Hi Apokalupto. Thank you for inviting me here.
1 year ago Report
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youarewell2
youarewell2: Thanks for explaining this to me. I didn't really understand why Isaac was cutting deleting my post. Had he just allowed a forum conversation it might have more clearer to me.

Okay now I understand how he is translating.

He is using Greek prepositions that can be used "literally or figuratively". He is using a certain online Bible with Strong's concordanceYou can look up the Hebrew translation for the corresponding English words. Many times they will say that the Hebrew words can used "literally or figuratively". But this does not mean that the word is actually being used "figuratively" in a particular verse. Unless it specifically says, it is a "figurative" word, there shouldn't be an assumption that it is it is not a literal meaning. It is just a matter of linguistics in my opinion.

Also, the parable of the Rich Man and Poor Man, Jesus never mentions that hell or heaven was only a "figurative" place. Although, it was a parable that didn't "literally" happen. The Bible can be really easy to understand but it does have complexities.
1 year ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: There are grammatical errors on this forum. Do I or do I not notice any false claims and false accusations on here ? If I do then is any of it caused by one person or by more than one person ? What is the name or what are the names of any one who is guilty of any of that ?

To Apokalupto. Did Isaac actually claim that there is no Heaven and Hell around at all ? If he did then did he make a false claim ? if he didn't then you made a false accusation that he made that claim and that he made a false claim. Even if he did tell you that Heaven and Hell are not around and you think that he is wrong about all of that then you either for that they are possibly around right now or that they certainly are around right now. If he didn't tell you that and you have claimed that he has and that you have decided that either they are both possibly around right now or that they both are certainly around then you must show how you know they are possibly around right now or how Heaven and Hell are certainly around right now. So just the way no one has proved that any god named God is around and that of a god of the name Jesus (which wasn't even the name of anyone in The Iron Age), no one so far has shown that Heaven (in a supernatural way) or Hell is around anywhere right now. Maybe the only the types of Hell are just Ipswich and Logan. So both of you should should that whatever you belief to be true is either possible or certain or you can just stop telling people on this forum what you are both wrong about if you are wrong about one thing or more than one thing.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
1 year ago Report
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: Oh I definitely disproved his false claims about the Greek NT prepositions stated above. That was easy, because all I had to do was read...oh and paste.

The rest of your post is off topic. If you couldn't tell the topic is about the Greek prepositions within the text and you really should confine your digits to that because this thread is not a playground for you to weave off topic atheistic gossamer.
(Edited by Apokalupto)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: Well none of that made sense, nor was any of it grammatically correct. What exactly have you disproved and how ? You really like to make false claims and false accusations after all. Nothing shows that there is a Heaven and nothing shows that there is a Hell. Unless you actually have something that somehow proves otherwise then any claim that there certainly is a Heaven and Hell around right now is a false one. Of course if you though are referring to something about ipirate2 instead then I must give you the benefit of the doubt because I never saw what he put on here, so you may or may not be right about him if that is to whom you are referring to.

I'm not sure because I don't know who your last message was directed to. What did you mean by gossamer ?
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: That's okay, you don't have to understand, I understand. If your post doesn't have to do with the Greek prepositions above, it's off topic.
1 year ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: You are a bloody Mexican ! Even what we are currently using is off topic according to you because it's not Greek. You decided to learn some Greek words and now you think that you can go to Athens and sound like one of the locals when you talk to them ? I hate to tell you this but even if they didn't look at you they'd notice that you are a foreigner just by hearing you. No one including yourself is solely going on about Greek prepositions, so get off your self entitled and self important high horse and wake up to yourself hypocrite for you yourself asked everyone if Heaven and Hell are around right now. You never mentioned in the title, oh by the way make sure you only use Greek prepositions. You don't even understand the basic concept of your own forum. The bloody cheek of you to tell myself and others that they are wrong when you yourself aren't even right about what you dictate that they should do.

You never mentioned the words 'must only use Greek prepositions' in the title. Maybe since you think that you are the world's greatest expert at Greek you should go to a Greek only site, sure they'll all laugh at your atrocious attempt at using Greek but that's another story.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: Heaven, an English word. Παράδεισος or Parádeisos, that's the closest thing to it in Greek you damn fool. Here's Hell, which by the way is not a Greek word. Κόλαση or Kólasi, that's the closest thing to it in Greek. Sure, I am very picky, but you control freak, you are someone who is anal retentive. Get your finger out of your arse. For the record stop falsely accusing myself and anyone else for being off topic about the simple question of if there is a Heaven or a Hell, which by the way does not need any Greek prepositions used in order to answer the question. Don't ask a question if you don't like an answer that only you want where it needs to be in Greek according to you. No one one but you thinks that way. Go to a Spanish site and ask them to solely use Greek, I'm sure you'd be popular there.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: What a bunch of useless drivel you dumped. The OP is in English and Greek and the prepositions in question are surrounded in parentheses, the text is laid out in front of the reader's face with all the work already done for them. It doesn't get more simple than that.
1 year ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: I did nothing of the sort. Use a Thesaurus instead of using parentheses, the other thing is that using the word prepositions every two seconds doesn't show you up to be smart, it just shows you up as being pretentious. As much as you didn't use a space before the question mark you should still look at what the title of your own forum is. So you can stop crapping on about Greek whilst pretending to be a Greek expert. Use words, not OP. The question alone in the title of this forum where you are now behaving like a five year old chucking a tantrum does not require anything to be in Greek Mexican Boy. All it requires is an answer to it, not anything in Greek no matter what forum you have related this forum to. So stop being a twit and just accept the answer. I don't give a stuff if you're having a meltdown about what Isaac told you or not, just because he used Greek at times doesn't mean that it's compulsory (regardless of your insistence otherwise) to use Greek. The only one going on about drivel is you.

Since you love bloody Greek so much, then here's the thing, the prophecy in Hebrew was not about the Hebrew equivalent of the now English word Joshua. The thing is that someone stupidly chose Yehoshua (the Hebrew name) about a prophecy that never was a prophecy about that one but couldn't work out the by that time Yeshua (the shortened Hebrew name) so an idiot that used Greek thought that Iesous was close enough. It's not even a damn derivative of the name, from that we got the precious name Jesus eventually. Every religious god is imaginary, Christ does not exist and you shouldn't be so very upset with Isaac because every name you went on about is about made up people. Even the authors of each original story is unknown. It's interesting, the one that crawled to you on here is the one who you did not have a go at even though her stuff didn't amount to much, just like yours, yet when someone disagreed with you there was a very childish response about it being complete drivel and then you come out with all sorts of false accusations and false claims. It's so typical of religious fanatics. Let me know when you finally arrive in the land of reality delusional one. Keep telling yourself that Christianity is a monotheistic religion while you're still fooling yourself too.
(Edited by GeraldtheGnome)
1 year ago Report
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto:
"You are a bloody Mexican !"
"you are someone who is anal retentive"
"Get your finger out of your arse."
"stop being a twit"
"The thing is that someone stupidly chose Yehoshua (the Hebrew name) about a prophecy that never was a prophecy about that one but couldn't work out the by that time Yeshua (the shortened Hebrew name) so an idiot that used Greek thought that Iesous was close enough."
"It's so typical of religious fanatics."
"Let me know when you finally arrive in the land of reality delusional one."

Interesting.

For some reason you keep losing it. I never asked if Heaven and Hell were real places either, that was a quote. Did you see the quotations? They look like this " " I just used them above to quote you, check it out.

The person quoted in the OP (isaacnd200) then uses the Greek text, namely the two prepositions "en" and "eis" as-the-basis-for-his-"proof." In order for one to agree or disagree (or in this case DISPROVE) the aforementioned they would respectfully use that logic and same basis for their own proof against his, otherwise you're just talking over each other. Isaac used the Bible as the authority to make his point, therefor it follows to do the same if we're to be on the same page. You on the other hand have not been on the same page at all, presumably on purpose.

When people scroll through Wireclub forum topics they will click on the topic that interests them only to be disappointed that the discussion therein has veered off to another topic because people like you refuse to respect the topic. You try to turn every topic into your own. The only reason why I haven't deleted your disrespectful and insulting, not to mention your attempts to wiggle and weave into another discussion filled with arrogance against God is because you have revealed what is in your heart.

(Matthew 12:34 [KJV])
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
(Edited by Apokalupto)
1 year ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: Work on that grammar, stop making false accusations and stop making false claims, I didn’t lose it hypocrite, you did. Yes the title was in regards to the question in the title so the first thing to do was for anyone to answer that question and then address everything that troubles you so much about what Isaac told you. Yes things that I personally wouldn’t think twice about but for some reason it got to you so much that you dwelled on it.

Either you don’t repeat the words of others with any message of yours or just don’t make any messages in any forum at all, it’s as simple as that. No, the ignorant and arrogant one is you. Weave, at least use the word properly in the future. You didn’t even get the Early Modern English verse right. Newsflash, the authors of each gospel are anonymous. No one is talking when they type anything, that should have already been obvious to you and that also means that there is literally no discussions going on at any time on this site, well except in videos. The day someone finds Russell’s Teapot is the day someone will find Heaven and Hell. Regardless of what you and Isaac disagree about the fact of the matter is that the truth is never dependent on what either of you think is true. That is all for now.
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: Saying that I "disagree" could imply that my "opinion" differs from his, but it's much more than that. The fact of the matter is the Greek prepositions "en" and "eis" are not restricted to the usages that he falsely claimed that they were, I proved that quite easily. I know this as an undisputed fact because I can read Greek and Isaacnd200 can't, he's a fraud.
1 year ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: Whether it’s much more than that or not doesn’t mean anything to me. It’s like a storm in a Tea cup. It’s not worth either of you fighting about. Use a Thesaurus to avoid using the word usages again, use exclamation marks properly and no one is saying anything here. We are typing words on here. It should be about whether there is a Heaven and Hell around anywhere, not who did or didn’t use Greek prepositions in a forum correctly. If you are right about him then that will be proven by what is true no matter if you both think that you are right. Does it really matter ? Can you also look in a Thesaurus and use an alternative to the word prepositions while you are at it ?

I got it, all three of us are picky, but I still think your gripe with him is much ado without nothing whether he is wrong or right. I’ve seen people in the past also think that they were right when both of them ended up being wrong and at other times both people were right when they thought that the other was wrong. Does it really matter ?
1 year ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: Well I went to his forum and told him that you told me that he cannot read Greek and I then basically gave him the chance for him to prove that he is right and that you are wrong. I’ll put it this way I’m still waiting for that by him and he deleted a message of mine after I criticized him for him basically going on about something like that his job is done if he annoys people. I told him that I’m interested in what is right, that I don’t go out of my way to annoy people. He deleted that and I then berated him for doing so just recently.

I admit this with you, deleting his own stuff, not just that of mine and others, does not help his side of anything. So long as myself and others see what is true by either of you is all that matters. I kind of hinted for him to check out this forum, I feel that he is deliberately avoiding this site. If you both just go onto each other’s forums to at least try to sort out the differences then the problem might be resolved. I sincerely wish for the best outcome from both of you and for both of you.
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youarewell2
youarewell2: Absolutely, Heaven and Hell are real places.
21 days ago Report
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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: One thinks that they are, that's all.
21 days ago Report
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youarewell2
youarewell2: GeraldtheGnome said this =====One thinks that they are, that's all.

My answer------> We are past thinking they are real. Millions of people have had near death experiences and have reported that there is existence after you die. Also we have scientist and Medical Doctors writing books telling us that these places exist. We have ancient History telling us these places exist. If you just want to ignore all these people and what they have to say. then whatever happens to you will be on you. You could literally research other people's experiences and conclude that these place most likely exist rather than not exist at all. As for me I have my own personal experience and I know by experience they exist. And it is really quite alarming to die or be near death and understand they exists. It is better to be ready before you die to make the choice to enter these places.
20 days ago Report
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youarewell2
youarewell2: Auditory tests
Some experiments have used auditory tests to time consciousness for up to five minutes after the brain shuts down. In one study, 40% of people reported some awareness, 10% had a near-death experience, and 3% were fully conscious and able to describe events with accuracy.

Cardiac arrest
A 2023 study found that nearly 40% of people who went into cardiac arrest and were revived by CPR had memories of dying. The study also found signs of normal brain activity that are consistent with consciousness.

SCIENTIFIC STUDY REVEALS MORE ABOUT LIFE AFTER DEATH=====> YouTube
(Edited by youarewell2)
13 days ago Report
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youarewell2
youarewell2: I really think people should be prepared for their life after death. Too many people think there will be no existence after they die. That doesn't make sense at all. Even Science tells us that energy never dies.
13 days ago Report
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Heaven and hell are real but not physical locations.

Until recently, people used the words 'spirit' and 'soul' interchangeably because they didn't know the difference. That's no longer the case. The ancient Greeks could have done the same with certain words - we don't know how they saw things nor do we have the original translations.

We moderns use the word "place" to mean different things; the meaning is inferred from the context. Greeks may have done the same. Since the Book is about spiritual matters, we can accept that heaven and hell are states of mind and heart.

Intense pain is hell but temporary. The same for joy. All things pass; many of them return.

The Hereafter is another world of being; it's the eternal realm. It's as different from this world as this world is from the babe's in its mother's womb. You can call them places because that's how we naturally orient ourselves. In reality, there's no time or space in the Hereafter. There, we orient by degrees of nearness to God.

Ancient texts don't say much about the Hereafter; they only allude to its existence. We know more about it now.
11 days ago Report
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youarewell2
youarewell2: Yes.. The Bible Talks about Hell very clearly.

And Hell is not a Secret. Many people have visited hell already and came back to tell us what they saw. I myself already have my experiences.

God teaches us well about hell and warns us. Jesus is the only one that can stop you from deteriorating , rotting and decaying after your body dies. That is why he gave His life for you .. doing all possible so that you do not end up in such a fate.

In the Bible... Soul means=====Breath of Life, Spirit, Ghost, Phantom. The soul is you in the body. The body is only an outer shell.
11 days ago Report
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