Divinity Of Jesus Christ? Who Said? Who didn't? (Page 4)

amoregrowers: I work, run a business and have six children so Im not always watching.

But yes go ahead

Apokalupto: oh, let not the threadmaster be angry, and I will speak: peradventure I should ask that you'd be more clear, would you? are you going to accept such evidence as I have described?

Apokalupto: "I work, run a business and have six children so Im not always watching." I apologize I'm not trying to pressure you beyond what is reasonable, I thought that you were just avoiding my question thank you for the explanation.

Apokalupto: Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

the New testament quotes this. the old testament uses delivered the New testament uses saved but the words mean the same thing.

Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

especially verse 13 is applied to calling on the name of the Lord Jesus.

reread the New testament verses with this in mind, the word "for" is middle English meaning "because." "For" is a conjunction, that means all of these verses are connected.

Apokalupto: the verse in the book of Joel (and everywhere else in the old testament) that uses LORD in all capital letters is hashem the stand in for the tetragrammaton in the KJV.

DontNeedChrist:

THERE ARE NO CAPITAL LETTERS IN HEBREW SO YOUR ARGUMENT IS PATENTLY RIDICULOUS! LOL!!!

DontNeedChrist:

This made my day. This is evidence that the Tetragrammaton means jesus? Because of capital letters used in an English translation? This is the epitome of desperation and ignorance. Thanks for the laughs today AA. Precious! LOL!

Apokalupto: @amore

I await your response.

Apokalupto: and I should say LORD is better than hashem because that's his name his name is not the name it is not hashem so if you're going to use a stand-in or if you're going to use another name in place of the unspeakable name, the LORD is a fantastic choice. as you've already pointed out Elohim is another choice but that's probably more leaning towards a Hebrew usage whereas English speakers primarily use LORD.

Apokalupto: Jesus is hashem, he is the LORD.

E s s e n c e: Christianity is not the only religion that has created humans into gods, the Christian version of G-d goes against the laws given to the Jews by G-d. Because Christian says that Jesus, a man, is G-d pr Hashem incarcerated in a man's body it isn't what the Torah says.

Apokalupto:

man is made in likeness and the image of God
Abraham was met by the LORD (יהוה) in the plains of mamre
Jacob says he wrestled with God
Moses saw a human figure on the mountain
Ezekiel had a vision of God on his throne, he was as a man.
the LORD will come like a mighty man of war
the LORD shall suddenly come to his Temple
from the time that it was there am I: and now the Lord God and his Spirit hath sent me
the voice of him that cries in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. o jerusalem, that brings good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength, lift it up, be not afraid, say unto the cities of judah, behold your God! He shall feed His flock like a Shepherd.
the glory of the LORD shall be revealed to all flesh
in that day the House of David as God, as the angel of the LORD before them


Jaguar what you mean is you have a different interpretation
this is just a few little tidbits.

Apokalupto: so even before Jesus was incarnated and put on human form, as an actual human flesh, the LORD (יהוה) had the appearance of a man.

Apokalupto: Isaiah 53 asks the question to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? the arm of the LORD is God, in the scripture said in that day the House of David has God, as the angel of the LORD before them. Isaiah says the arm of the LORD will be revealed to all flesh, and his glory will be made manifest. his glory rested in the ark of the covenant where the cherubims are.

E s s e n c e: Like I said, Christianity is not the only religion that has created G-d into their image, humanizing what is unknowable, which is Abraham's G-d. And this creation by men goes against G-d's teachings given to us Jews. Because a Christian claims that what is being said in Judaic writings conform and validate their beliefs the WHOLE Judaic writings scream outloud against it.

Apokalupto: I don't think that you believe in the tanakh Jaguar, because the scriptures demonstrate and show that the LORD (יהוה) at the very least has the appearance of an actual man, and the scriptures furthermore say that his glory will be manifest and all eyes shall see it.

Isaiah 40:5

“And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

his glory rests between the cherubims.

Psalm 80:1 Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

the glory of the Lord is the shepherd the glory of the Lord was with Moses he was The Shepherd of Israel the glory of the Lord was with Joshua he was The Shepherd of Israel the arm of the Lord was with them both that is the glory of the Lord but it was not seen. but it was prophesied that it would be

Apokalupto: you just have your personal own interpretation. the LORD appears as a man, Ezekiel Saw the glory of the LORD sitting on his throne he appeared as a man, putting scriptures together the glory of the LORD is to be revealed to flesh and all eyes shall see it. so at the very least even if God doesn't put on actual human flesh it was still prophesied that he would appear before our eyes manifesting himself in human "appearance"

E s s e n c e: I care less what you think I believe, the Christian interpretation of Judaic writings don't support the Christian claim of G-d becoming a human. Period.

Apokalupto: this is why Isaiah 53 is not Israel. people in the past have somewhat lived or gone through the trials of Isaiah 53, but specifically Isaiah 53 is questioning, it's asking who is the arm of the LORD (יהוה) going to be revealed to? so we're talking about the glory of God being revealed, and then it describes a man who's rejected and hated.

E s s e n c e: Sure, if you repeat it enough times your claim would be validated by the rest of the world. It isn't, but I recognize that your version has absolutely nothing to do with mine, and is good for you.

amoregrowers: Jesus is not Hashem/LORD
Can Jesus be God/ Elohim/theos YES
Can Jesus be Son of G-d YES

One of the Tenants of Judaism is that G-d is non corporal

Let me explain


 (John) 10:30-36 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (Theos)? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Here is what Jesus quoted

82:1 -8<<A Psalm of Asaph.>> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judges among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4  Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5  They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6   I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High. 7  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8  Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.




Shemot (Exodus) 7:1 And HaShem said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a God (Elohim) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


In the greek OT and Nt Elohim is translated as theos which in english is God

In english God is ambiguous meaning several things

So lest see who is Elohim in scripture

Hashem is Elohim
Moses is Elohim
Messiah is Elohim
Judges/Rabbi/ are Elohim
Israel is to be Elohim

Whenever any of these are serving justice they are called Elohim/Gods

Elohim/justice
Hashem/mercy


So now lets lern some basic Torah/kabbalah

Genisis says in the beginning God /Elohim / justice


Then the second creation account uses G-d / Hashem/ Mercy


Then we have let us make man in our image

Who is US/OUR/ plutal? Why 2 creation accounts

ITS Hashem/Elohim
Mercy/Justice
Fire/ice
Light/dark
Male/female
Left/right
Get the point

G-d spoke and with both sides of himself mercy/justice G-d created the earth and man in this manner.

I will continue later with son of G-d

Apokalupto: you say this is not in the tanak but I have proven to you that these concepts do exist in the tanakh.

Psalms 33:6

“By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.”

so who created the creation who created the heavens, was it the LORD (יהוה)or was it his word? well in Genesis it says God did it, but here it says that the LORD did it "by" his word, "by" the breath of his mouth.

God's word is not separate from himself, its not a piece of him that is not God it didn't come from outside of him someone did not give him the thoughts or the words, he did not have to create the words. God created the Torah but God did not have to create the words that existed before the Torah. Jesus is the word, in the scripture says that God created creation "by" Jesus.

don't believe me?

Psalm 74:11
11 Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom. (John 1:18 the son of God is in the bosom of the Father) the hand or the arm of the Lord is the glory of the Lord between the cherubims which shall be revealed to all flesh. he is the shepherd as Psalm 80 says.

so who made the heavens, the LORD, by his word, or his arm?
Isaiah 48:13
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

the word is God the arm is God, I am telling you that these are not separate from God, scripture demonstrates that.

Apokalupto: Christians do not just believe some wild ideas, these things come from the tanak. just because you have a different interpretation or because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it's not derived from the tanak.

Apokalupto: so the question is who is the creator?
is it God?
is it his word?
is it the breath of his mouth?
is it his hand?
is it the spirit that hovered over the waters in Genesis 1?

it's very obvious that these are not separate from God. only God is the creator there is no separate force from him that created it for him that is not God. there is one God. we believe in God the Father God the word and God the Holy Spirit they are one God, and scripture demonstrates that each one has the power of God and all took part in creation because they are all one God.

E s s e n c e: Amore, here is the thing, Jewish interpretation is CLEAR that Moses didn't do any miracles that it was G-d doing it all.
While the NT and the Christian narrative is that Jesus is the source, and he isn't the source.

Can Jesus be God/ Elohim/theos YES <--- NO
Can Jesus be Son of G-d YES<-- YES like anyone of us

The Torah teaches and Kabbalah that there is no one else besides G-d, there is no force that goes against Him, then everything that we see is G-d's expression of Himself. But the rock isn't G-d.

Your thought that Jesus can be G-d and Elohim is like I am saying that the rock I am holding in my hand is G-d.
The Christian interpretation in lame terms is that the rock is G-d, while it should be the rock shows G-d's attributes but it isn't G-d.

Are you are suggesting that Jesus was the vessel for G-d to be revealed or that Jesus is G-d?