Can Oral traditions of man supercede Gods Holy Scriptures? (Page 4) Zanjan: LLouis: "We are still under Jewish law in its entirety......" Only if you're Jewish. Spiritual laws differ from social laws - the latter always changes, as they should. Meanwhile, the spiritual laws, as delivered by Abraham and Moses, weren't fully revealed. Neither were the spiritual laws delivered by Jesus.....one can barely see a difference in degree of responsibility because most of it is repetition. They're all elementary, the barest minimum. As such, everyone on earth today should be able to abide by them. By the way, there are other monotheistic faiths. (Edited by Zanjan)  Llouis97: Okay but see, we don't have to do the laws because Jesus fulfilled them at the cross. That's what I was getting at. Jesus made the whole law become Him, but He put Himself under the Jewish law, and offered Himself as the fulfillment for the Jewish law. Paul says that the law is holy, but that it's also sin and death. Jesus made it so we could make faith in Him the Jewish law after His death. The difference between spiritual laws and other laws as your saying is written about where the Gospel of John mentions that "The law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." Paul also writes that, we are not under the law of sin and death, but under the law of love and life. But the law was never done away with, only the way in which it was obeyed. We're still under that law, but the law was fulfilled through Jesus. Zanjan: "we don't have to do the laws because Jesus fulfilled them" So, you're saying you just scrapped the 10 Commandments? I don't think God would be pleased. They're spiritual laws - that means permanent. Even atheists are bound by them. When Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment.....", He was adding a spiritual law to those existing at the time. He was the fulfillment of the law because He was the ONLY ONE who was keeping them all!! To wit: When He appeared, genuine faith in God had died out everywhere. He came to regenerate it. Your interpretation seems a bit left field of mainstream modern Christianity. (Edited by Zanjan) Llouis97: We don't follow the 10 commandments because they're laws, we follow them because they come out from love. God is love, and His Holy Spirit dwells inside everyone born of the Spirit. Following something because it's a law doesn't proceed from the heart, it comes by obeying Jesus, and following the prompting of the Spirit. Paul explains that the fruit of the Spirit is Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control. From the Spirit comes obedience to the law of love, from obedience to the law of death comes nothing. God's righteousness was displayed in the Jewish law, but He made all of the Jewish law Jesus. Following the Spirit comes naturally to a believer, and requires no law to obey it. It all has to do with love. That's why Jesus said that all the law and the prophets had to do with love of God, and love of neighbor. Zanjan: "the fruit of the Spirit is Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control." I could add, like 100 more character traits to that. Even so, these virtues are acquired in degrees. One bad trait can set them back to 2% or wipe them all out in a nano second. So, however "kind" you are, you can always be more kind - there's no brick wall. Obedience is submission to God - we obey because WE love God; it's part and parcel of putting God first in our lives, above all else. We may not have needed certain laws because we were already practicing them but there will always be a couple that are challenging. Since when did people follow any law for nothing? Some obey out of fear of God or because they want certain rewards; neither ranks as high as love. There are different kinds of love. Christians were just struggling to learn brotherly love; one of the easiest kinds. (Edited by Zanjan) Llouis97: 100 more character traits? You don't think that covers all of them? I'm pretty sure every good character trait falls under the fruits of the Spirit. And no, these aren't traits, they're fruits. They come from the Holy Spirit working in us, they aren't traits that people do themselves. You're right about obedience, but obedience is defined as "Obeying God's law", and obeying His law has to do with the law of faith, God's law has always been the same, and Jesus took the law that God gave to Moses, and fulfilled it. It is still the law of Moses, and the law of God, but we obey it through accepting Jesus. The reason love ranks higher than anything is because God is love, and all love comes from God. Love is always hard. I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make, but I was mainly answering butttler about oral tradition and Scripture. We do obey God because we love Him, but obedience has to do with Jewish law fulfilled at the cross.  Apokalupto: butttler: dear folks--- "i want to get into the meat of this discussion and show fundamentally it is an impossibility for any wisdom originating in man to supercede the word of God" XP reminding the posters- "No one said there was anything inherently wrong with oral transmission, people orally transmit words and ideas every day. You’re adding to his words things he did not say as though he did, and that’s exactly where the problem arises, as the OP points out, when the oral traditions supersede the Holy Scriptures. Now scriptures are the written word and the word says explicitly in the law: Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." butttler: "DNC....--- this is word for word from the talmud you esteem as high or higher than Gods Holy Scriptures....bava metzia 59b... Gemara relates: Years after, Rabbi Natan encountered Elijah the prophet and said to him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do at that time, when Rabbi Yehoshua issued his declaration? Elijah said to him: The Holy One, Blessed be He, smiled and said: My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me. that small phrase right there makes the "whole Talmud"... NOT FROM GOD...for very simple reason if at any point sinful man can triumph over God....then God is no longer all-powerful...and no longer The One True God...please DNC i hope you can see this and come before God maybe in private setting and repent and ask God to restore you....bible says He wants to save He does not want to condemn " Xrusaoros Pegasos: Every time he didn't have an answer to us "Christians" he'd consult the oral traditions and they always contradicted the Bible, I can't remember a time when they didn't, and of course there was no explanation for that either. DNC and his friends are the ones who have ALWAYS relied on the oral traditions to explain their side, so my question is, if the oral traditions don't contradict the written scripture, why every time you pull it out it contradicts it? Xrusaoros Pegasos: When the rabbis and sages are the ones who determine Jewish Law and not God and who are authorized to interpret Gods written word in the Bible even over the objections of the divine author Himself, and saying it matters little what God had in mind and that it is that this is the LORD Gods will is total blasphemy and total rejection of Moses and the word of God. xrusaoros pegasos's Picture Xrusaoros Pegasos: Correct me if i'm wrong but remember when DesperatelyNeedsChrist said that the reason why God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden was because they didn't repent "God wanted repentance" he said. This makes God a liar, because God had already foretold their doom if they decide to eat the fruit, "For in the day you eat you shall surely die" and this is why God kicked them out from the garden away from the tree of life "lest they should take of the tree of life and live forever" Not only does it make God a liar, it famously adds to Gods words and changes them. See what happens when other things supersede Gods actual word? Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Edited by Apokalupto) Zanjan: LLouis: "100 more character traits? You don't think that covers all of them?" Good gracious, no! God has more than 350 revealed Names (since the time of Adam) - each is a divine attribute which can be manifested in man - none to absolute perfection but to some degree. Only the Revelators possess these to perfection. You'll find many of these virtues listed in the Bible but not nearly as many as there are now. We were created in the image of God; ergo, we're spiritually noble creatures, yet all that we can reflect of these attributes depends on our own volition. In other words, that's our potential. Whether one has the capacity or not is another matter. To say they are "fruits" of the Spirit is just a visual way to convey that we can't acquire the divine virtues without the Holy Spirit. Just as the bud is tightly wrapped within itself, it can't enlarge or unfold into full being without God's assistance. It must receive nutrition and be nurtured. Even so, not every flower will produce fruit. LLouis, it's not helpful to repeat the same assertion - add some proof and viable presentation to explain and back it up. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: Oral Tradition: "Cleanliness is next to Godliness". This is true but not at the expense of *courage*, a virtue which fearlessly stares germs down. We practice sensible cautionary measures but don't become germaphobic. It's all about balance, folks - take the path of moderation, the road less travelled. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: That reminds me, there's no bathroom tissue left in the grocery or drugstores. No hand sanitizer or face masks either. Yet God provides for His children. With my scissors, a pile of old clothes, and a bag filled with plastic grocery bags, I recalled the teaching of the oral tradition: "Waste not, want not". I knew if kept those things around long enough, eventually, I'd find a use for them. Apokalupto: Fortunately hoarding shopping bags doesn't contradict the Bible, but what ever does could use a good whipping. : D Zanjan: The Quran says one must wash their hands after using the toilet. (makes me wonder what the Christians were doing). The Quran says, if no water is available, then use sand to clean your hands. That this is in scripture tells us the ancients weren't clever enough to resolve this problem themselves. They continued their old tradition of shaking hands with the right hand. I wonder how they chopped veggies with only one hand. Back to the point, there's a whole list of protocols Muslims observe regarding what's permissible for doing one's business. These were developed by men, based on that simple direction in the Quran. I don't want to get into all 20 of them; suffice to say these are desperate attempts to adapt to the changing times. https://nypost.com/2015/04/08/muslims-can-now-use-toilet-paper-turkeys-top-religious-authority/ MUST those instructions be observed? Well, who's going to know? (Edited by Zanjan)  Fractured fairy tale: XP and Butler Nailed it . Peeple Seek gods advice on. These matters and read what the word Says . Don't listen to people like John Hagie (Edited by Fractured fairy tale)  ByGraceAlone: Everyone has traditions, but any kind of tradition or practice needs to be judged by the Word and, if it fails that test, gotten rid of. Apokalupto: Dnc, i posted those videos of john hagee for you to show you that he was a crook, you never understood what i was doing. I dont trust John Hagee for two seconds. John hagee was selling his new book on TV, he said that his new research proves that Jesus never came to be the Jewish Messiah, along with a bag other blasphemous Christ rejecting things he said about him. He had to edit his book though because Christians didn't let him get away with it. John Hagee was a crook for Israel. (Edited by Apokalupto) | Religion Chat Room 30 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
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