Christianity has rooted on Judaism, Judaism points out what's a mamzer, and Christianity portraits Jesus as a mamzer. (Page 6)

Jaguar Essence: butttler

I don't choose to believe is irrelevant, I know IS irrelevant to me as a Jew. I appreciate your blessing, I am bless tremendously by G-d and want you to know you're being bless too.
To each their own...
May we learn to accept others religious paths are equally important and valuable as our own.
L'Chaim!!!

Zanjan: Buttler: “Zanjan---it appears..please correct me if i am wrong...that you accused me of entering words that were never said?...i quoted scripture word for word.”

It’s not an accusation – it’s a fact. Here’s what you wrote (quote)>>>> If the Word of God says it...then....that's that. Colossians 1:16 " For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth…...."(not typing the rest because that part was ok, except for the (e) and (f) insert).

The text doesn’t have “Jesus” in it, or brackets. Ergo, what you typed was a corruption of the text. Furthermore, it’s not Jesus or God saying that. Although Christians treat Paul’s writings as scripture, it’s NOT the Word of God. Paul was offering his own summary about God’s work, not quoting a Revelator. If he wanted to quote Jesus, he would have written 'Jesus said......"

In the same post, you also wrote this>>>> “furthermore---every human is appointed to die and then the judgment" ( Hebrews 9:27)

Here is what the text says:
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

Not only have your words corrupted the text, you hacked it off mid-sentence without indicating the sentence was incomplete, like punching Paul in the face while he was speaking! You must not have liked him much.

You’ll continue to do that again and again. I can’t stop you but I can tell the truth.

Zanjan: Essence: “This is why I said what I said about you.”

You called me a hypocrite. You accused me of being "ethically dishonest". Both are bald-faced lies about my person. THAT’s not judgment, it's slander - meaning, that's breaking the law.

Is this God's Will for you?

You seem to have great difficulty locating the boundaries of place and perception. NOBODY knows the condition their own soul is in, much less anyone else's. NOBODY knows what's good for them; that's why we seek God's guidance. HE knows.

Looks like you've got some more work to do.

Zanjan: Essence: "As well, it was G-d's will for Israel to be back on the world map, after almost 2000 years of Jews being uprooted from their home."

This is true. It's also a sign the Messiah (next Revelator) had arrived as per Biblical prophecy. HE is the One Who arranged it. Do you live in Israel?

Long story short, you can't take Israel with you to the next world, only your own soul. God decides if you were prepared enough for a high place in the heaven of His Faith. .

shadowline: Surely no one is saying that Jesus was a "mamzer" because his father was God?

Zanjan: How the wicked entrap themselves!

The ancient Jews said they didn't know who His father was. Certainly, they didn't know God.

Can you imagine someone not seeing one iota of the father's resemblance in the son??? The clergy and ONLY the clergy plotted to destroy Him but couldn't find any dirt on Him - um, could that be a clue?

shadowline: I don't know about the ancient Jews not knowing God. From a Christian, Muslim, or Baha'i point of view, they were the one people in the ancient world who did know him. And it is not hard to understand that the idea that anyone, anyone at all, was fathered by their God, was more than a little beyond their reach.

But if you are taking account of the Christian belief - if that is what you're talking about - that Jesus was fathered by God, I don't see how an accusation of illegitimacy follows. Being fathered by God doesn't exactly rank down there with being fathered by a pimp. Nothing, surely, that God does is illegitimate, to those who believe in him. Jews included.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan
This is what you said about your religion...
"in the Baha'i Faith, all believers were forbidden to interpret any scripture in the world, past and future. Additionally, no notes of anything told to a believer by any member of the Holy Family can be conveyed as authentic or official; as such, these accounts can't be used for teaching the Faith."

zanjan earlier you said to me...
Looks like you've got some more work to do and even said you'd pray for me, which you erased later.

You're just another biased hypocrite and bigot individual with ethical dishonesty, who pretends to know and understand it all. Your babbled biased judgement is based on the lack of knowledge, and subsequent understading of others spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

"How the wicked entrap themselves!
The ancient Jews said they didn't know who His father was. Certainly, they didn't know God.
Can you imagine someone not seeing one iota of the father's resemblance in the son??? The clergy and ONLY the clergy plotted to destroy Him but couldn't find any dirt on Him - um, could that be a clue?

Your spiritual emptiness shows you don't even follow your own religion, which is manifesting by your incapacity to acknowledge your finite knowledge and understading of others spiritual knowledge.
According to your own description of Baha'i you're FORBIDDEN by your religion, to INTERPRET any scriptures of the world from the past and future.

Your excuse that you aren't interpreting scriptures but the actions of people is totally BULLSHIT. You're using your biased and bigot understading to interpret the scriptures of others to criticize their actions according to YOUR knowledge and understading. Which is demonstrated in your judgement on the actions of ancient Jews, by how they'd have recognized G-d's son according to you; when you don't even know nor understand how ancient Jews, nor modern Jews relate to G-d.

Your unfulfilled spirituality from your religion CAN'T be hidden, that's when your biased hypocrisy and bigot ethical dishonesty creeps out, by judging ancient Jews with malicious accusations that if Jews had a relationship with G-d they'd recognize Jesus as G-d's son.

You're not a Baha'i, but just another individual who's using the Baha'i's spiritual knowledge of unification as a tool against others to build yourself a throne.

You're building yourself a public podium to feed your egotistic hunger, the result is obvious, your religion isn't fulfilling your spiritual needs so the fulfillment becomes egotistical.
This is the outcome in which you haven't been working for your spiritual fulfillment, but on the contraire, you're working for the glorification of your egotistical fulfillment. Materialized by your need to be right, the disobedience of the core teachings of your religion, and your biased hypocrisy and bigot ethical dishonesty on your judgement on others spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

zanjan WHY don't you start to PRACTICE YOUR religion?
"In the BAHA'I faith, ALL believers WERE FORBIDDEN to INTERPRET ANY SCRIPTURE IN THE WORLD, PAST AND FUTURE."
I say to you, you'd take your own advice, focus on praying for yourself; because it literally shows you've some work to do on you.

Last warning, focus on the topic, which is; the reason WHY Jews interpret Jesus is a mamzer.

Jaguar Essence: shadowline
"Surely no one is saying that Jesus was a "mamzer" because his father was God?"

This topic is for non-Jews to UNDERSTAND WHY Jews see Jesus as a mamzer.
I'm pointing out the pragmatic reasons of why ancient educated religious and modern Jews saw/see Jesus/Yeshua as a mamzer.

The understading between educated religious Jews and non-Jews is the pragmatic approach that Jews have in their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge. In Judaism we've clear that G-d is without a form and that absolutely everything is possible within the laws of Nature.

As an example the drastic differenciation between Jews and non-Jews is the understading of what's a miracle. For Jews a miracle is an event within the laws of Nature against all odds, while the majority of non-Jews relate to a miracle as a supernatural event outside of the laws of Nature.

The majority of non-Jews expect that Jews should believe for the sake of believing that Jesus was convinced by G-d and/or G-d Himself. While our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge tells us the opposite, that G-d is neither a male or female, it's a Force without a form, and everything that is is within the laws of Nature, which reflects the Craftsman.

Remember, for educated religious Jews the craftsmanship reflects the Craftsman, and the laws of Nature are predetermined and absolute. Jews don't speak of G-d Himself because He's unknown, but of G-d's attributes which are in all His names in our sources of spiritual knowledge. Those attributes have been taken from Nature itself.

If non-Jews expect educated religious Jews to believe Jesus was convinced by G-d Himself, then they'd put their mind in the minds of educated religious Jews to see why is not possible.

Our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge; which are thousands of years older than Christianity's NT or Baha'i whatever sources they possess, have teach Jews the craftsmanship; which is Nature itself, reflects the Craftsman. As well the laws of Nature are absolute, predetermined, and all matter is reacting to them.

Non-Jews are demanding we've to believe what isn't part of our spiritual inheritance and what our sources of knowledge teach us, that G-d Himself makes His rules and breaks them as He wishes to do and re do to "fix" His "mistakes." This is the portrait of G-d as a human who has no idea of His actions and outcomes, this portrait goes against our teachings and what's written in our sources of knowledge, it's a total different understanding and perspective of educated religious Jews.

As a comparison, and I'm NOT saying that G-d is electricity, but as a point of pragmatic understading, electricity is a force that's neither male or female and without a form.
Let me put this in terms that you can understand the extent of what some non-Jews are demanding from educated religious Jews to believe.

Imagine electricity impregnating a young woman, this woman was able to conceived and gave birth to a human, this is EXACTLY what some non-Jews are demanding from educated religious Jews to believe under faith beneath reasoning.
To believe that G-d who's a Force that's neither male or female without a form, is going against His own laws of Nature He created, which are predetermined and absolute, He impregnated a young woman and Jesus was convinced, plus that Jesus is G-d Himself in the flesh.
Non-Jews are demanding from educated religious Jews to submit to an irrationality, impossibility, and an absurdity.

So going back to the topic of WHY Jews see Jesus as a mamzer, as already explained above. It's obvious for educated religious Jews that Jesus wasn't conceived by G-d Himself, and Christianity points out clearly that Mary's husband isn't Jesus's father, for this reason educated religious Jews see Jesus as a mamzer.

The demands of some non-Jews of educated religious Jews, to believe under faith beneath reasoning what is against our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge is unacceptable, illogical, and absurd.

The best I can say is, the minds of educated religious Jews aren't going to change.
The fact is, the so called OT, is a source of spiritual knowledge created by Jews, and that educated religious Jews are knowledgeable of their own spiritual inheritance. I personally believe undoubtedly that Christianity, like any other religions, have the right to exist because is G-d's will, ONE G-d understood differently by many, so what's truth for Christians or any other religious from different religions is a truth and good for them.

To each their own...

Fractured fairy tale: Sorry where I come from this is nothing but Blasphemy . Sad thing is so many go along with it and make excuses

Jaguar Essence: fractured fairy tale

You're responsible and accountable for the sensitivity of your religion as a religious. I don't have to apologise as a Jew for seeing what I'm seeing.
This topic is to explain why educated religious Jews see Jesus as a mamzer, not to convince you other wise, but to explain why.

The sad thing is you don't having the capacity to accept that others don't have to submit to your version and understading.

Fractured fairy tale: Not asking you to apologise Essence
You do what you want .
Your arguing against god not me
Yes I know I own what I say . And as I said I se it nothing more than Blasphemy
Any hoo

Jaguar Essence: fractured fairy tale

Nothing more than a blasphemy?
You haven't seen me bitch about the blasphemous mutation that Christians like yourself have done to our Jewish spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge do you?

So keep your biased bigotry about your blasphemy against Jews. I am talking to you this harsh; because I been witnessed of your antisematic propaganda, and how you rejoice unapologetically about it. So do me a favor, move the fuck on to another forum religious topic.

Fractured fairy tale: whatever your not talking on behalf of jewish people your talking on behalf of Zionists. And the kabalisist stuff you always go on with .
Accusers of the Bretheran its all your got

Jaguar Essence: Move on cockroach.

Fractured fairy tale: Glad that great Education worked
lol bye

Jaguar Essence: It shows you've a problem with reading comprehension, and can't handle rejection well, move the hell on.

Apokalupto: Essence, could you for me define what "anti-semitism" is, since I think it's best to ask a Jew about that. Google and websites have slightly different definitions and I don't want to choose something that feels off to you. Thanks.

Apokalupto: And please, not an article, or an example, but a dictionary definition.

Zanjan: Shadowline wrote: "From a Christian, Muslim, or Baha'i point of view, they were the one people in the ancient world who did know him".

That's not correct. Firstly, because there had been religions of God before Moses and they'd been quite successful. Consider the timeline. At the appearance of Jesus, there was no one left who was a true believer in God, except for John the Baptist and Jesus. Religion existed but faith in God had died out everywhere. That was a wicked generation.

From all those points of view, particularly the Baha'i view, the Jewish faith had reached such a state it was bereft of the Holy Spirit. Christ came to re-create the world, not to eliminate a religion. The Holy Spirit was with Him and it touched only the receptive hearts; they were the first to be quickened by its power - only THEY knew God. The rest perished.

This is a well-known divine dynamic, described in every scripture in history.

Don't confuse the father with the sire. They're not necessarily the same person.

Zanjan: Essence, you addressed me: "earlier you said to me...Looks like you've got some more work to do and even said you'd pray for me, which you erased later.”

I didn’t erase that. “Looks like you've got some more work to do” is still there. The praying part was in a different post on a different page and it’s still there too – I wrote:
“Uncomfortably at times. I pray you learn how to resolve that soon.”

Not sure what your point is but I did say a prayer of assistance for you. I don’t make idle threats or false promises. Please let me know if God decided to help you.

Essence: “Your excuse that you aren't interpreting scriptures but the actions of people is totally BULLSHIT. You're using your biased and bigot understading to interpret the scriptures of others”

I see you didn’t provide quotes to back up the alleged law-breaking spree.

You addressed me: “You're not a Baha'i,…….”

I can assure you I’ve been a member of the Baha’i community in good standing for 39 years, having served on several of its institutions, both appointed and elected. If I had broken any laws, there would be evidence of that - I would have been barred from administrative privileges or, had my identification card cancelled.

If you wish to submit a complaint, visit: https://www.bahai.org/

Scroll to the bottom of page and click on “contact”, then choose “Canada” for contact details. Just tell them where I live (location is on my profile – it’s in Alberta) and they’ll instantly know my real name and contact info. Note: you will be asked to provide documentation of the infringement as proof.

Zanjan: Our individual relationship with God is a matter of faith and trust. However, that is grounded on continuous evidence, otherwise, one couldn't appreciate it. A printed book doesn't inform us of the strength or efficacy of our own relationship. Confirmations of the Spirit provide some of that evidence.

Not one of us has any evidence whatsoever of anything that happened in people's lives during the time of Moses OR Jesus, much less all that in between. Unless they speak, we can't know their mind. We have proof these named scriptures are indeed ancient but zero evidence of precise dates.

If I ask: "How long did it take for Mary to conceive - was it 1 hour or 50 years?" "What about the birth of Christ - did that take 1 hour or 80 years?" The scripture doesn't state that nor does any Jewish record left to posterity. Zero evidence. We have record of a Jewish priest telling Jesus "You are not yet 50 years". Was the priest using the singular or collective "you"?

We take on good faith whatever someone has said about themselves, not so much what they say about others..aka, the mamzer. Without evidence, we have nothing. In that case, we have to move to a different issue.

How do I know Essence is a Jew and not a poser? I don't.

There's no reason to question anyone's word until their word looks shaky. I don't cultivate suspicion but if someone behaves suspiciously, that sets off alarm bells. I'd be an idiot not to doubt; where there is doubt, I'd want to give them the opportunity of defense so lost faith could be restored. Then it's up to me to decide if their defense is enough.

How does anyone know Jesus was a Messenger of God? If another Messenger of God said so, my acceptance would be an act of faith, not one issuing from knowledge. So, by what means would I use to determine that merely on my own, without being told?

Would it not be the same evidence that is consistent with ALL Messengers of God? I can list those and we can all agree on every one of them. It may not be *enough* evidence for some people to qualify as proof, but a substantial collection is worth noting.

shadowline: As far as that goes, Christians believe that Jesus was much more than a messenger of God, and their reasons for believing that would not be relevant to any other prophet or religious figure in history.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

Your need to be right, your unwillingness to accept you don't know it all, and not willing to accept you're not doing what your religion is preaching, is the force behind EVERY hijacking YOU do in ALL the damn religious topics.

Do me a favour zanjan IF you don't have anything else to say about the damn topic, move on to the next or another religious forum topic.

Zanjan: Shadow, I was using a general term when I said "Messenger of God" - it embraces all the Prophets and Revelators. A Revelator is a Manifestation of God - He is the Mirror, reflecting all God's attributes to humanity.

There weren't many of those over the course of written history but there will be many, many more. God never stops sending Them. If He did, mankind would die and become extinct very quickly.