Christianity has rooted on Judaism, Judaism points out what's a mamzer, and Christianity portraits Jesus as a mamzer. (Page 3)

Zanjan: DNC: "because of having no "earthly" father to inherit a tribal status."

Jesus said "Call no man father except God". Think about that for a while. Think carefully.

The NT text (in reference to Mary), doesn't say "seed", it says "child". Big difference. The mind was being lifted to higher intellectual ability. Your *spiritual* father is God, not man, any priest or rabbi. You don't seek support and approval from them, you seek it from God.

Your biological sire had nothing to do with your creation; he didn't create you, he just prepped the environment, same as your mother. The parents contribute a few minutes to that and have absolutely no control over the cells or what kind of infant is born.

It's not your parents who raise you up in the kingdom of God - it's the Revelator. However you read it, Mary was pregnant with the future. It would never have come to pass without God''s assistance and divine protection.

Nobody promised David his throne would last, not past Solomon. Doesn't matter how many descendants David had, that throne was crushed. The last Jewish king was during Jesus's lifetime. Was Herod a descendant of David? No, he was an Edomite, whose ancestors converted to Judaism.

Jesus, on the other hand, was of the Davidic line, the tribe of Judah, back to Abraham - Jesus was an authentic Israelite. Fact: He knew his family tree better than anyone because it was customary to introduce one's self by their complete lineage (son of X, son of Y, son of W....etc).

I've seen you come up with the heritage deflection before but that's not what God has said - God chooses His kings. If the Jews could have done it, they'd still have a king.

Zanjan: "before Abraham was I AM ( Jesus)"

Forget the brackets - Jesus wasn't speaking of himself; He was repeating what God was saying about God; and, Jesus made that very clear to everyone at the time. It's quoted in the text. Too bad that was long before your time so you could have spoken to Him yourself and asked for clarification.

Jaguar Essence: dontneedchrist

I agree with you, the writers of the New Testament had no knowledge of the Halacha, to me this raises the high probability they weren't Jews.

As for uneducated Jews I do have a concern.
The uniqueness of Jewish spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge is the demand in which the Jews had, have, and will have of embodying the Torah in absolutely everything is done, including the simplistic daily activities.

What uneducated non-Jews don't understand is the purpose of Torah for the Jews is, that the Torah is the tool to discover G-d's interaction with us in absolutely everything; what's happening in one's existence is directly related from G-d, this is how G-d communicates with Jews.

The Torah and Oral Tradition point out the highest importance on teaching Jewish children the Torah and Oral Tradition, and it was done immediately, which shoe to put on first as an example, so from the earliest moments of their existence they're embodying the Torah to discover G-d, and to establish a connection with Him.

Here's a link
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/30367?lang=en
which points out and explains all Judaic sources of knowledge, in which the parents were responsible and accountable to teach the Torah and Oral Tradition. This is why I question the writers of the NT were Jews, uneducated religious Jews at Jesus's time is very highly improbable.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

"Firstly, you didn't answer any of my questions to you that were directly related to the topic. Instead YOU went off on a tangent."

So far you have make statements on what Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge say, don't say, and how should be interpreted according to YOUR version.

The topic is clear and the point from where Jews see Jesus as a mamzer, which is the Torah, the Halacha, and New Testament's description of Jesus's birth. I'm pointing out only ONE explanation of what's a mamzer according to OUR spiritual inheritance and it's sources of knowledge, Mary becoming pregnant while engaged with Joseph and Joseph ISN'T the father; Joseph is Mary's legitimate husband and Jesus isn't his son.

This is a pragmatic direct point where there aren't grey areas, Torah and Halacha had ALREADY stipulated what's a mamzer BEFORE Jesus's birth for a millennia. The NT describes Jesus birth as a mamzer according to Jewish spiritual sources of knowledge.

You assume to know and understand our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, when in reality you're just an uneducated non-Jew, the depth of spiritual Judaic sources of knowledge will take you SEVERAL lifetimes to grasp.

"When reading the Old Testament, we’re reading backward in time. Did you inherit hindsight? It says ZERO about today’s society, conditions, science, religions or names. Fact: The Children of Israel lived in the Bronze Age; the new civilization Moses built could only be set into an early Iron Age mental frame."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Right here this statement shows your ignorance, you see our sources of knowledge as a literal meaning. Any educated religious Jew will tell you the Torah ISN'T a book of history, nor is meant to be taken in it's totality literally; however, there's history in it.
Because you don't know and understand what we're experiencing in our spiritual inheritance, DOESN'T mean is our truth, it's YOUR truth, the reality of the fact is you're ONLY eating breadcrumbs of our feast.

Your knowledge and understading of the breadcrumbs you're experiencing in our spiritual inheritance, doesn't determine the depth of our spiritual inheritance. The point is, I'm just pointing out you are uneducated to make any unbiased judgement.

Jaguar Essence: butttler

"Essence--- Jesus is NOT a "mamzer" (bastard)...Jesus was miraculously and divinely conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary...its very unfortunate that your eyes and heart cannot see this...but...we only know what we know...if we dont know we dont know...May God abundantly bless and abound His Love ,grace and mercy on you."

I understand that the New Testament narrative about G-d is, that G-d doesn't need to follow any rules and He's above Nature's laws, and Jesus is justified in absolutely everything, even though it contradicts the Torah and Oral Tradition.

In Jewish spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge G-d is absolute and complete, the craftsmanship represents the Craftsman, absolutely everything that happens is within the laws of Nature. Elohim means ONE Force governing many forces, Gematria Elohim and Nature are correlated, with this being said educated religious Jews approach their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge PRAGMATICALLY.

The Torah AND Halacha ALREADY determined what's a mamzer before Jesus's birth. Christianity choose to root itself in Judaism to validate their claim on Jesus; however, by doing so, the Torah and Halacha has determined Jesus is a mamzer because of the Christianity's narrative on Jesus's birth.

I'm pointing out WHY Jews see Jesus as a mamzer, this is a pragmatic and direct reasoning. Judaic spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge precede Christianity's sources of knowledge, it isn't our fault Christianity impose it's rooting on our spiritual inheritance. So, unfortunately our spiritual inheritance has determined Jesus is a mamzer

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos

"Butler, ive already discussed this with essence in another thread and it didn't go anywhere. Her definition did not fit the Torah either, they go to extra biblical books NOT the word of God. But your post and mine I believe really shine the truth on such a dark idea not found in the Torah or Gospel."

The main reason for this topic is to show WHY Jews perceive Jesus as a mamzer, the pragmatic explanation of this conclusion. I'm NOT interested in changing Christianity's perception, to each their own. The fact remains the same, our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge and Christianity's sources of knowledge confirm to Jews our understading. It's nothing we can do, except to recognize your truth is meant to be yours and ours for us...

Zanjan: Essence: "So far you have make statements on what Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge say, don't say, and how should be interpreted according to YOUR version."

I state historical facts. Occasionally, I share my own personal perspective but I don't interpret scripture - that's what Jews and Christians do. In my religion, interpretation is forbidden by law.

God's Word is perfect; its purpose is to communicate to a world where understanding has been lost. Ergo, God doesn't speak in babble - He wants us to understand so, it isn't GOD or His Revelator Who's making that difficult.

This is where both Jews and Christians screwed up - they argued with each other about what the scriptures meant and some of them decided THEY were the authority. Institutions are authorities, not individuals. The only exception is a Revelator of God.

By the way, the halacha got so carried away with junk, it collapsed in the 18th century. None of the talmuds mention Jesus the Christ or Jesus of Nazareth. They did the judging. Defining what a word means isn't the same thing as judging who somebody is.

When you say Jews see Jesus as a mamzer, you're speaking only for yourself. Maybe a couple others agree but nobody is impressed because they have no authority.
There's so many sects of Judaism and they all disagree with each other on the laws, the Talmud, and halacha. Like Christians, they never understood the concept of unity. That's definitely NOT "depth" to me.

"Joseph is Mary's legitimate husband and Jesus isn't his son"

As I said before, Joseph and Mary were married long before Jesus was born. This union meant all children in their permanent care were legally their sons and daughters without any further beaurocracy. That was the culture, repeatedly. Moses was adopted......apparently, it was the reason He made it through childhood. Jesus and Moses had a lot in common.

" you're ONLY eating breadcrumbs of our feast. "

I'm not eating what you're eating. No offense but I don't care much for moldy cheese.

Zanjan: By the way, Jesus never called Mary His mother either. He called her "Woman".

When Jesus, on the cross, saw His mother and favourite disciple standing by, Jesus said to His mother "Woman, behold thy son". Then He said to the disciple, "Behold thy mother". Thus, the disciple took Mary into his own home as family. It was just as simple as that.

Apokalupto: @Essence

I double checked the OP and you are right, it says you made this thread to explain why Jews see it that way. Either way it is okay. As a Christian, Christ taught to endure those things if someone hates Christ or persecutes Jesus, bashes Him, or our faith. It is your right do have an opinion on Jesus/NT/Christianity and I am actually glad to see that everyone's views are able to be expressed without their comments being deleted! You frame it as a perception, but to Christ and to Christians it is persecution and hate and we are taught to be okay with that. I hope you make more thread topics in the future as I enjoyed the dialogue and showing the light and truth of the Gospel when there is error put forth.

I am more happy to know that Jesus Christ is the rock in the OT and the Gospel and nothing can remove it, only those things that stand outside of His word dare try, aka, nonbiblical books and content not found in the Bible. God never authorized a new law outside of the of the law of Christ which is to love as He has loved, and we know we are to follow after the example of God anyway.

However I see you are validating a different law outside of Moses and your excuse for it being the truth is that there are writings and opinions about it that again don't come from the Bible, aren't found in the Torah.

There were always direct consequences for not following through exactly what God commanded in Torah, this proves in and of itself that we can rely on His direct meaning or at least rely on the actual content that is written in it.

Jews may have any perception they desire in the whole wide world. Have your perceptions, good or bad, but if it contradicts Gods word, whats the point? Are we just validating our own opinions, are we just cushioning how we feel and what we want? You know I don't deny that there was probably an oral tradition at the time of Moses, however the things that ive ever heard from Jews, especially in THIS thread, would never have come from God because it contradicts His word outright. Moses said that the word was nigh unto them , reachable, in their hearts and it is on their tongue to do it. <-- no super hidden super occult super mystical secret puzzles that contradict Gods word. Nothing here explains how they needed to puzzle over secrets and hidden oral explanations their whole life to understand it and be able to do it and be in their hearts. It was so nigh unto them.

Essence you should make another thread about the oral traditions. Perhaps explain why there are massive gaps when going from the word of God to the oral explanation, why they are so far apart and so different in many cases. Or you could just make another Jesus bashing thread, either way is fine by me. I don't believe in sacred cows.

sacred cow
noun
noun: sacred cow; plural noun: sacred cows

an idea, custom, or institution held to be above criticism (with reference to the Hindus' respect for the cow as a holy animal).
"the sacred cow of monetarism"

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

"I state historical facts."
What historical facts have you shared?
All I've seen are your spiritual understading opinions, which are irrelevant to Jews spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

"God's Word is perfect;...
You want to preach go and make a chat room or create your own religious forum.
This is forum has an specific threat.

"This is where both Jews and Christians screwed up - they argued with each other about what the scriptures meant and some of them decided THEY were the authority."
You forgot to include yourself here, all you do is argue. Blah, blah, blah, blah giving your opinion on matters in which you're ignorant about. If you had any honesty and ethics, you'd judge others spiritual inheritance as you do yours, when you are studying your text.

There's the literal meaning, but there's a meaning behind the literal that carries more depth of knowledge and understading; which you have to study like a bahai without any attachments of previous understadings with an open mind.

Yet, you come here to tell others what's and isn't in their spiritual knowledge, understading, and inheritance as if you knew it. Knowing the external literal understading DOESN'T signify you know, it means you have only a portion of the whole, not the whole.
And this goes for ALL uneducated non-Jews and Jews judging Judaic spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

This is the issue with non-Jews like yourself, let me give a pragmatic example to show what I mean.

Imagine a Chinese who doesn't speak English nor understands it tells English native speakers, they are speaking English incorrectly.
^^^^^^^^^
This is how the majority of non-Jews judge Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, just like the Chinese. There're 225 levels of knowledge, understading, and depth in our spiritual inheritance, you're a literal learner in level 0.1 pretending to judge 225 layers; that's how non-Jews like yourself screw up arguing and pretending to know what is unknown.

You like it or not Jews' spiritual knowledge and understading of OUR spiritual inheritance IS Judaic. Just like the Chinese non-English speaker you're telling educated religious Jews how to interpret and understand their own spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge based on your biased and ethical dishonesty.

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos

The main reason I this thread was to explain why a Jew like poetry sees Jesus as a mamzer, not to offend, but the facts of the pragmatism of how Jews experience their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

This issue of the mamzer is one of many reasons why educated religious Jews can't accept Jesus. What non-Jews don't understand is, that educated religious Jews have been groomed to discover their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge with a pragmatic approach.

Abraham's teachings, which were the accumulative knowledge and understading experiences that started with Adam HaRishon trickling down through all the righteous characters, and adding the pieces necessary for our Patriarch Abraham. The Oral Tradition started with Adam HaRishon. Abraham was the FIRST Jew, and Hebrew, his teachings gathered people from different races and ethnicities who united as one, they were the first Jews and Hebrews. With Jacob's adding the piece of attained knowledge for the Jews and Hebrews to become the first Isrealites.

The issue I have with non-Jews is the lack of knowledge and understading in our spiritual inheritance which is in our sources of knowledge. Telling us what it is and isn't when their understading is minimal, the fact that they presume the Torah and Tanakh are the ONLY sources of knowledge that count is presumptuous. It's like saying the English language is root on it's own linguistics, that doesn't belong to any linguistic branches, denying that English is based on the West Germanic language of the Indo-European language family that is closely related to Frisian, German, and Dutch (in Belgium called Flemish).

This is what creates the great divide, which Jewish Sages foreseen, implementing that there's NO need to proselytize, they attain the knowledge, understad, and experience of the dynamics and mechanics of perception.

With this being said, it's important to come to the acceptance and reconciliation that educated religious Jews have the correct understading of their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, and what non-Jews determine to be is their truth, which is inconsequential and irrelevant to our truth. To each their own...

DontNeedChrist:

"I am actually glad to see that everyone's views are able to be expressed without their comments being deleted! " - Xrusaoros Pegasos

(SAYS THE MASTER OF DELETION AND CENSORSHIP)

Go to any of his threads to see endless deleted comments. Give us all a break.

Apokalupto: Essence: "The main reason I this thread was to explain why a Jew like poetry sees Jesus as a mamzer, not to offend, but the facts of the pragmatism of how Jews experience their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge."

Ahh, you are speaking for Poetry. Well she should defend herself and her stance with her own words and opinions and perceptions. Not that it seems to matter since she appears to have no interest in dialogue outside of the Bash Jesus Discussion room. I don't wish to speak through you to her either. So that's that. Maybe one day she will take down her anti-semitic rose colored glasses.

You said "The issue I have with non-Jews is the lack of knowledge and understading in our spiritual inheritance which is in our sources of knowledge." If you want us to understand your personal spiritual inheritance more then expound, please. And if you have any questions or things you'd like to know about the Gospel or what we believe and such you can ask too.

Ive offered interest in a topic of the oral tradition if you so desire to make one and have a dialogue. I don't think that you want to though, i'm not sure you fully want to talk about THIS topic either, since you don't reply to posts as a whole, especially mine and you continually fall back on secret hidden knowledge that is only attained through the oral tradition which you can't know unless you go to a rav etc. Basically you cant know unless you are a Jew. Well whats the point of even bringing this topic up and any other Jewish topics if we cant really know unless were a Jew?

Well, that's just not what Moses said. What you've been doing is setting up an unattainable authority in order to not have to really get into the word of God. I have what Moses said, the word of God is nigh unto me, it is in my heart and in my mind and on my tongue, it is within my grasp, it is not beyond the sea or in the heavens, I can discuss and talk about it. Can you say the same? And if you think you can, why can't you talk about it, why is it hidden?

Zanjan: Essence: "which you have to study like a bahai without any attachments of previous understadings with an open mind."

Fact: The day I became a Baha'i, I had no attachments to anything, not even my life. There was no religion, traditions or culture in my family (other than the Swedish Smorgasbord) and I had none either. I dropped the Smorgasbord. While I was never an atheist, I was completely ignorant of ALL religions. Can you say the same for yourself?

Yet I chose a religion almost nobody had heard of at the time. No one taught me, I just read its scriptures - one book Baha'u'llah wrote (the first paragraph had me at hello). I didn't know anything about its laws. Can you say the same for yourself? Yes, we're all different in our spiritual journey; I began with virtually nothing - a blank slate.

After that, I became educated in ALL religions and their scriptures because studying ALL of them is required by our Revelator. Have you done the same? If not, how can you demonstrate you have an open mind?

What I see is your adoption (as you described) of some perspectives that never came from any Jewish heritage. Some of them are modern.

"What historical facts have you shared?"

Everyone has read them. Check for yourself. You'll see the word "FACT:" prefacing each one. If I've missed any, the readers will still know its a fact.

" If you had any honesty and ethics, you'd judge others spiritual inheritance as you do yours, "

You didn't ask me to do that. I could write a lot more in response to items in your posts but YOU said no off-topic content. Am I'm seeing a double standard here? Or an idle threat? Both your posts and mine are totally off topic.

Zanjan: Pagsos wrote: "And if you think you can, why can't you talk about it, why is it hidden?"

Because we MUST all stay on topic.

Otherwise, the reason it's hidden is because people like me could easily shoot most of that Jewish "knowledge" chock full of holes. Who wants the exposure?

Can't do that with the Word of God, which IS exposure.

Apokalupto: Little cocky there...

Zanjan: If you call perfect honesty that.

Personally, I'm fully game for having a go at some "hidden knowledge".

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

As usual you missed the point given.
The point is there's a literal and internal knowledge in your spiritual knowledge and understading. You don't treat the same way others spiritual knowledge and understading as you do yours. You are taking the literal meaning and denying a depth due to biased hypocrisy and ignorance.

Well, create your own religious thread and babble how you know everything of everyone's spiritual knowledge and understading. Go and preach it, but stay in the topic. You don't like it move in to the next religious forum.

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos

I do apologise for not completing my point earlier in my response to your comment.
I do appreciate you are participating in the topic, and I'm glad we can communicate to agree to disagree.

I'm not speaking for poetry, I'm voicing my perception too. I expressed what's the conflict I've about non-Jews telling Jews how to interpret our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge; as well I mentioned at the beginning to Fist that Christianity has the right to exist. I'm very vocal about the right of others religious path are equally important and valuable as mine. I've said before that non-Jews have equally important and valuable relationship with G-d as Jews do; that G-d is NOT the possession of any specific group.

Your issue is, that your version and understading is the absolute truth, and if we aren't following your version we're not obeying G-d. You're making a judgement based on a partial knowledge and understading which distorts the view of how we Jews are experiencing the connection with G-d.

My spiritual inheritance has teach me that what you're experiencing is real, it's a truth, and that's G-d's will for you to discover Him as a Christian. Because I don't see what you see, nor I find the sweet taste in it, doesn't mean is totally complete and fulfilling for you. As well I've learned that G-d Himself is the Ruler of Man's hearts, and that absolutely everything He does is good.

So going back to the real point of this topic, it's about Jews explaining WHY we see Jesus as a mamzer. The knowledge given to us is our inheritance, it's complete, we don't need the NT (Gospels), nor need Mohammed's message; that's meant for Christians, Muslims, and others. We've a different task than non-Jews, this is why I say constantly, to each their own...

Apokalupto: I think i get Essence. I think I got it before, I thought id just try a little bit and see if it would go further. Anyway, I just want to say that of course I believe that there are deeper layers of understanding and interpretation. The Bible certainly not all literal, there is a lifetime of learning that can come from the scriptures.

Zanjan: Essence: "you are taking the literal meaning and denying a depth due to biased hypocrisy and ignorance."

First, you've re-stated many times WHY Jews don't accept Jesus. You've chosen one reason -> mamzer. This is NOT the reason Jews don't accept Jesus - it's an excuse, not even a good one, as I've been pointing out so far.

I KNOW why they don't accept Jesus but haven't mentioned that because wisdom dictates you wouldn't learn anything *new* from hearing it.

The spiritual realities never change. This is why I don't care why anyone believes or doesn't believe anything. I care about justice, a spiritual virtue - it's unjust to malign anyone. Heavenly eyes prefer to look only at the good traits individuals possess.

I hear you when you say you're conflicted. Feels uncomfortable, doesn't it?

"how we Jews are experiencing the connection with G-d."

Uncomfortably at times. I pray you learn how to resolve that soon.

As a side note, I've found that modern Jews, overall, are more accepting of those belonging to other religions than most of society is.

DontNeedChrist:

Stating the reality of what a mamzer is is NOT an excuse and NOT the reason Jews reject him as divine or the Messiah. It's just an extraneous fact that adds to the mountain of evidence against what christianity claims he was in light of halacha. There are many other more important reasons Jews reject him. This is a sidebar at best.

butttler: dnc...dear friend we already proved its impossible for Jesus to be a mamzer...unfortunately you are not connecting with this reality

Apokalupto: LOL!!! Im sorry that was so funny. Butler, I got a real laugh at of that one.

DontNeedChrist:

All fun and games eh guys?

butttler, you proved nothing but what you believe. That is not proof. We have provided the evidence, the definition and the scriptural references to prove it. Mamzers existed long before jesus. It's not our fault he fits the defintion.