Christianity has rooted on Judaism, Judaism points out what's a mamzer, and Christianity portraits Jesus as a mamzer. (Page 2)

Zanjan: "Your historical facts on Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge is incomplete"

Historical fact: No Jew or Christian believes their own prophecies have come to pass. This means they still don't understand them. That is NOT indicative of knowledge.

All of the Patriarchs taught there is one true God; perhaps you can list Abraham's laws?

Historical fact: Nobody alive in the past or present knows the date Adam lived. No Revelator ever mentioned it. No scripture mentions calendar dates anywhere. There can be no knowledge where information is absent.

However, there is some scientific knowledge of when and where the first civilization occurred. Truths can be proven and it was obviously sometime during the middle to late Stone Age. Do we need Stone Age knowledge?

If we say Adam was the first Revelator - that He brought the first civilization - then we'll have to locate that factual date using the scientific evidence of culture and dating methods. Anything else is pure lunacy and superstition.

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos
You are totally clueless about Jewish spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, your literal meaning are breadcrumbs of what educated religious Jews are savoring in our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

You DON'T determine how we experience, know, understand, and perceive our own spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge. NOR impose your limited understading and truth on us, what you see is meant for you as Cristian; which is totally inconsequential to us as educated religious Jews.

I'm NOT interested in changing your perception of our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, you have yours; which is independent and inconsequential to mine.

The best I can say is, TO EACH THEIR OWN...

Apokalupto: Essence: "You are totally clueless about Jewish spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, your literal meaning are breadcrumbs of what educated religious Jews are savoring in our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge. "

Jesus/NT/Gospels/Christianity as found in the Bible doesn't compare and compete with Judiasm. Eat what ever cookies you want. But when we are speaking of God and His plan and the Bible, a source of knowledge is nothing if it is not from His word or is in harmony with it. Not trying to take anything away from you, merely letting you know that your views that you have decided to express openly are in stark contradiction to the Torah. Jesus is meant to fulfill the Torah not Judaism, I repeat, not Judaism.

But we are fundamentalists, we go straight to the sources only, the Bible.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

"Historical fact: No Jew or Christian believes their own prophecies have come to pass. This means they still don't understand them. That is NOT indicative of knowledge."
Total BULLSHIT, you are seeing my spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge under the scope of your biased understading, your need to believe you know everything about everyone's spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge shows your idiocy.

It will take you SEVERAL lifetimes to grasp the depth of Jewish spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge. The fact that you pretend to know and give a biased judgement base in ignorance of my spiritual inheritance shows you don't even know your own spiritual inheritance.

All of the Patriarchs taught there is one true God; perhaps you can list Abraham's laws?
The knowledge itself teachers where everything is at, and is NOT literal, so you want to know and understand what Jews have in our spiritual inheritance, GO and learn like a Jew.

Abraham received the Oral Tradition and he was the FIRST man who UNDERSTOOD the mechanics and dynamics of the System that's governing us, this is why he became the FIRST Jew and Hebrew. This is why G-d created an everlasting Covenant, his teachings gathered people from different races and ethnicities who united as one, they were the first Jews, with Jacob this group of people became the Isrealites. And the Jews of this present time are the descendants of the the first Hebrews, Jews, and Isrealites.

"However, there is some scientific evidence of when and where the first civilization occurred. Truths can be proven. If we say Adam was the first Revelator - that He brought the first civilization - then we'll have to locate that date using the scientific evidence and dating methods. Anything less is pure lunacy and superstition."

Like I said, you've reading comprehension issues, I ALREADY explained when our Jewish spiritual knowledge begin, as well that was accumulative.
Adam HaRishon was the FIRST human who discovered that ONE Force was governing the whole universe. He was named HaRishon because he was the FIRST man to communicate with G-d; however, Adam HaRishon WASN'T the first human. The Torah ISN'T a book of history nor is meant to be taken totally literally; however, there's history in the Torah. So you see, there's NO conflict what so ever between historical facts of humanity being older than Adam HaRishon's birth.

As for when Adam HaRishon was born, Jews who are the keepers of this knowledge that have trickle down from Adam HaRishon as I explained earlier, have the Hebrew calendar which started with Adam HaRishon's birth; because the birth of one's existence as a Jew is when we begin to have a communication with G-d, we're able to understand the why's and what for's of what's happening in our life existence and we see that in every single event G-d is behind it.

The fact is I DON'T GIVE A DAMN if you believe me or not. If you have anything else to say about the topic, which is at the beginning of the conversation you're welcome to address it, after this anything non-related to the topic will be erased. You have the damn tendency to change the topic of EVERY SINGLE religious forum. Create yours, and wait for the flies to arrived.

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos

You've not come to the acceptance that your version in our spiritual inheritance ISN'T for Jews, and that Jews are the keepers of our own spiritual inheritance that's in our spiritual sources of knowledge.
So regardless of your interpretation as fundamentalist it's totally inconsequential to us, your version is mean for you, you DON'T have the ground to tell Jews how to interpret and understand our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

TO EACH THEIR OWN...

Apokalupto: Essence, there really is no need for insults and name calling. While we are all big boys and girls, it doesn't help. I'm glad that you have not done that to me, but still.

Your response doesn't address what I was saying, it seemed to go over your head. I don't want to repeat myself, but as short as I can, I don't care about your spiritual inheritance as its not an issue for me.

Essence: "TO EACH THEIR OWN" sure I guess, but there are judgments and consequences for what we believe in and what we do and act on. The Torah teaches this.

MJ59: lol

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos
"sure I guess, but there are judgments and consequences for what we believe in and what we do and act on."

Agreed, I'm totally accountable and responsible for MY knowledge, understading, experiences, ignorance, actions, reactions, and interactions. This is why I've become responsible and accountable for my spiritual inheritance and I can say wholeheartedly to each their own. As I said before, YOUR experience, knowledge, understading, perception, and spiritual path is correct for YOU and is a truth for YOU; you DON'T get to determine how I should experience, know, understand, perceive my spiritual path and truth.

I've ZERO issue with you as a Christian, however, I've an issue with you telling me how I've to understand my spiritual inheritance. The fact is, the OT (Torah/Tanakh) is a Judaic sources of spiritual knowledge, it existed before Christianity. Imagine how you'd feel how Muslims claim the Gospels and Jesus is a Muslim, and how they interpret and understand is the correct way.

The point is, we can agree to disagree, how I understand my spiritual inheritance is as a Jew is inconsequential to yours as a Christian, and your spiritual inheritance as a Christian is totally inconsequential to mine as a Jew. You see, I've not used the NT beyond Mathew 1:18-20 for the topic. I haven't even deny you the right to your truth that Jesus/Yeshua is your G-d.

I've expressed the lack of knowledge of the NT in Judaic sources of knowledge because the scenario was presented to me. I even said that I doubt the writers of the NT had the intention of portraying Jesus as a mamzer; because the whole thing is that G-d and Jesus are above the laws of Nature and can do as they wish. Which is totally opposite to Jews understading in our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, we approach it pragmatically. You don't have what we have for you to see the bigger picture, while you deny our sources of knowledge beyond the Torah and Tanakh.

I'm a nobody to deny you your sources of knowledge as a Christian, which is the NT, I've said before that Christianity has the right to exist because is G-d's will, just as any other religion that exists.

Jaguar Essence: irate rodent
Do you have anything to add about the topic?
If you don't, move on to the next forum.

DontNeedChrist:

Getting back on topic, jesus fits the definition of a mamzer. The husband did not conceive the child according to the NT narrative. That makes jesus a mamzer. It's not meant to be an affront to christians. Mamzer and the definition thereof existed centuries before jesus' birth. He wasn't first nor the last. The authors of the gospels that included the virgin-birth scenario simply did not think it through and consider halacha (Jewish law).

The true Messiah will not be a mamzer. Mamzers cannot marry a Jew. Although jesus died before getting married, according to halacha, he should have married when he was in his late teens to early twenties. Obviously none of this was considered and shows a lack of knowledge of Jewish law of which jesus and his parents were subject to even under Roman rule. Whomever wrote the gospels was either not Jewish or were uneducated Jews.

Zanjan: Essence: “Total BULLSHIT, you are seeing my spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge under the scope of your biased understanding,”

Firstly, you didn't answer any of my questions to you that were directly related to the topic. Instead YOU went off on a tangent.

Here's another question. What did you inherit? The Mamzer lie?

When reading the Old Testament, we’re reading backward in time. Did you inherit hindsight? It says ZERO about today’s society, conditions, science, religions or names. Fact: The Children of Israel lived in the Bronze Age; the new civilization Moses built could only be set into an early Iron Age mental frame.

From where I sit today, they thought and behaved like the brightest among 8 year old children. Usually of upright conduct but sometimes poorly behaved, especially during the time of Jesus. Ciaphas was no sweet soul. . Except for a few Jewish mystics, none were particularly knowledgeable, even about the spiritual realities.

"GO and learn like a Jew."

Moses described nothing about heaven (other than souls existing there) and they had to be TOLD to sacrifice and constantly reminded through special occasions; so, how could they have had an understanding of any of that? These are your sources. Am I right?

Those who possess spiritual wisdom would already be living by correct protocols without the law, even without religious membership. Thus, *these* have no need of the law. So, wherever a religious law exists, that’s proof that people have not understood - *those* need the law.

If God expected the Jews to keep their spiritual wisdom, there wouldn’t be another Messiah after Moses. All Jews today are indirectly enlightened to various degrees by the knowledge of newer Revelators. The Jewish nation can‘t take credit for 3 thousand years of an ever-advancing civilization (only for 500 years of that).

Reminds me of a film I saw recently about the ancient Hadzabe people in Africa who’ve chosen to continue their Stone Age lifestyle. I thought it was amusing because they were all wearing modern western clothing (mostly unlaundered) and had steel tips on their spears and arrows. None of them were making textiles or drinking/eating vessels but they had steel carving knives and plastic bowls.

Don’t get me wrong, I think survival knowledge is important to preserve in case we ever have to go back to subsistence living. Since I don't choose this for myself, its not my responsibility to preserve it.

BTW, you speak to me as if I were a Christian. I'm not. You should know this.

Zanjan: DNC: "the husband did not conceive the child according to the NT narrative."

Men don't conceive - they fertilize. God conceives; He creates the soul at the time the sperm, meets egg.

Joseph wasn't visited by the Angel of Prophecy - Mary was. Angels don't visit impure people. Nobody knows the date of the vision or conception. We only know that she and Joseph were betrothed when it occured. We know that when Joseph heard Mary's vision, he was hesitant to marry her - who wouldn't be? Would you want to be the parent of a spiritual king, the Messiah?

God sent an Angel to Joseph - how many people believed Joseph's vision? Something must have encouraged Joseph to go ahead with plans to marry her. Perhaps it was the promise of divine protection. He listened and obeyed.

That's why Jesus made it through childhood. He explained why they went to Egypt and why they returned. You won't find any of this in Jewish scriptures. Neither will you find the mamzer lie in it.

DontNeedChrist:

Semantics. Word games. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Joseph's seed was not involved in the conception of jesus. Therefore someone else's seed other than Joseph fertilized Mary. Xtians claim it was the holy spirit. Regardless, it was not Joseph and she was betrothed to Joseph meaning they were already married according to halacha. Therefore the child is a mamzer. It doesn't get more clear cut than that.

G-d promised David that David's "SEED" (zera in Hebrew) would inherit the throne via is biological son Solomon. A continuous transition through the paternal bloodline.

The NT narrative omits Joseph biologically so jesus is not only a mamzer but is disqualified from messiahship because of having no "earthly" father to inherit a tribal status.

It's a mess and does not hold up to the litmus test of halacha that Jews lived under even during Roman rule.

butttler: Essence--- Jesus is NOT a "mamzer" (bastard)...Jesus was miraculously and divinely conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary...its very unfortunate that your eyes and heart cannot see this...but...we only know what we know...if we dont know we dont know...May God abundantly bless and abound His Love ,grace and mercy on you

DontNeedChrist:

Was Mary betrothed to the holy spirit? If yes, then you are correct. If not, he is a mamzer. Period. That is the definition. You allow your feelings and emotions interfere with the true definition of mamzer.

butttler: DNC...again it is unfortunate that you cannot see fundamental specifics with this issue...Holy Spirit did not have physical relations with Mary leading to her pregnancy the word mamzer indicates sexual relations leading to pregnancy outside marriage bed..this was an immaculate conception far beyond the realm of the physical

DontNeedChrist:

Her husband Joseph was not part of the conception of jesus. That makes the child a mamzer. It's unfortunate you cannot look at facts but allow your feelings and emotions dictate what is "truth" and what is reality. Yet again you allude to me being blind. It's a tired tactic.

Apokalupto: Butler that makes me think of some scriptures.

John 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 
John 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 
John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 

Jesus walked the earth before Mary, and before Abraham. Butler, we know and believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. : )

They do not.

butttler: dnc...dear friend i am not allowing feelings or emotions to dictate what i say....I am only sharing what Gods word says...XP makes the greater point here...."before Abraham was I AM ( Jesus)
was here...i wish you could see this dnc...how not only miraculous and divine..but the infinite Love involved..

Philippians 2....6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

dnc---God did this for you and me...essentially we did the crime and Jesus paid the fine
so you and I could have Eternal Life

DontNeedChrist:

Stop preaching to me and stick to the topic.

butttler: dnc...i am sticking to the topic...this thread was composed with erroneous viewpoint that Jesus is a mamzer...so we showed how that is impossible....i wish you could see what is available to you friend

DontNeedChrist:

"dnc---God did this for you and me...essentially we did the crime and Jesus paid the fine
so you and I could have Eternal Life"

That's a sermon. Has nothing to do with the topic. If it were my thread I would delete your post SOLELY because it's off topic and preaching and for no other reason.

butttler: dnc..i will agree i took a little freedom there...but the reality is so powerful and true

DontNeedChrist:

To you, yes.

Apokalupto: Butler, ive already discussed this with essence in another thread and it didn't go anywhere. Her definition did not fit the Torah either, they go to extra biblical books NOT the word of God. But your post and mine I believe really shine the truth on such a dark idea not found in the Torah or Gospel.

There is 0 question when WE use the Torah for the definition, and we know and believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Jesus walked the earth before Mary, and before Abraham.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And Butler, your words: "Holy Spirit did not have physical relations with Mary leading to her pregnancy...this was an immaculate conception far beyond the realm of the physical"

Case closed. It comes down to people who don't believe in who and what Jesus Christ said He was. It can go around in circle for an eternity.