Christianity has rooted on Judaism, Judaism points out what's a mamzer, and Christianity portraits Jesus as a mamzer.

Jaguar Essence: The source of the mamzer prohibition is biblical. Deuteronomy 23:3
A mamzer (plural: mamzerim) is commonly translated as “bastard."
According to the Mishnah, a mamzer is the offspring of any prohibited sexual union, thus anyone born to an incestuous union OR TO A WOMAN LEGALLY MARRIED TO A MAN OTHER THAN THE FATHER.

Bastard, adjective
illegitimate in birth. "An illegitimate child is a child born out of wedlock, or an illegitimate child may also be a child born in wedlock but sired by a man who was not the mother's husband."

Devarim - Deuteronomy -
Chapter 23:3
3 A bastard shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even the tenth generation shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.

Mathew NIV
1:19-20
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about : His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
(Jesus conception is out of wedlock, and not conceived from the man who Mary was engaged with, making Jesus a mamzer)

19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 
(The NT is acknowledging the Jewish law Devarim - Deuteronomy -
Chapter 23:3)

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 
(Joseph ISN'T Jesus father, this makes him a mamzer)

Jaguar Essence: I decided to post this, because Christians get offended when a Jew sees Jesus AKA Yeshua as a mamzer, which is understandable; however, I wanted to present WHY Jews have the knowledge and understanding that Jesus/Yeshua is a mamzer.

Christianity itself has rooted in Judaism as to legitimize their claim, through Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge; demanding to be validated and reassured Jesus/Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah and G-d incarcerated.

Christianity can't just pick and choose what favors their claim on Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, but Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 23:3 IS part of the Christian Bible.

Then WHY is the problem with Jews seeing Jesus/Yeshua being a mamzer; when Joseph was Mary's legitimate husband and Jesus/Yeshua WASN'T Joseph's son?

Mathew 1:18-20 simplistically and directly points out Joseph ISN'T Jesus/Yeshua's father, the acknowledgement of the Jewish law Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 23:3 by Joseph, and Jesus/Yeshua is born when Joseph is Mary's legitimate husband.

This is WHY Jews see Jesus/Yeshua as a mamzer; if any Christian has an issue with the knowledge and understanding of educated religious Jews, Christians have to accept that we are seeing pragmatically the scriptures, just as we see our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

Christians CAN'T demand we have to believe according to Christianity so Christians won't be offended.
After all every religious is responsible and accountable for their own spiritual validation and reassurance with their Creator, according to their version of knowledge and understading of Him. Others AREN'T responsible nor are accountable to validate and reassure anyone who they don't agree with.

Zanjan: So, you're insisting you're not offending Christians. What about non-Christians? I think we're all responsible for how we use language. Should we use nasty terms?

Jesus the Christ was conceived, not sired. This is how Christianity has always portrayed it. Islam and the Baha'i Faith agree that God created Him through a thought. What I see is people throwing stones at God for His work.

"Come, let us reason": Treat this forensically as a cold case.

What if infants were switched at birth? If you can prove that Mary was the biological mother of the said Jesus, then you can surely prove who His biological father was. Jews believe Joseph wasn't Jesus's father but don't believe what His mother said.

Before the pregnancy, who had the best reputation for virtue - Joseph or Mary? Who witnessed the conception? Who has seen the Holy Spirit?

Can Almighty God do anything? Can He create man from dust, divide the sea, make a dead branch to bud and a donkey talk; did He roast a bull and keep a handful of men cool in the fiery furnace? How many people in the Jewish Bible saw an angel? Why would anyone believe they saw one? Who belived Mary when she said she saw one?

"Christianity itself has rooted in Judaism"

Technically, it's a branch, not the root. The Faith of God is represented as the divine "Tree of Life". Judaism emerged from the Hebrew religion of Abraham. Abraham's religion emerged Krishna's religion, and Noah's religion before that..all the way back to Adam's religion - that's the root. Not yet a sapling.

We all know ONE reason Jews chose to pick who they thought was telling the truth.

Zanjan: As for the questionable father - who was the best provider?

All children are placed in our hands as a trust of God. God permits adoption; in fact, it's a noble and divine responsibility to care for a family, even if it isn't biologically yours. This is why sacrifices were made to God; they were donations to the poor and to widows.

If Jesus was a biological bastard, how did He enter the Assembly of the Lord? Apparently, He was accepted at all Jewish religious celebrations and even read a scroll in the synagogue. Who was breaking the law?

After the argument about Jesus's real geneology, who did God punish - Jesus or, all of the Jews? Who did God raise up when the Jews were all punished?

Jaguar Essence: Zanjan,
So, you're insisting you're not offending Christians. What about non-Christians?

If you're a woman would you be offended if someone calls you a woman?
If Christians get offended because we observe pragmatically the evidence that Jesus is a mazer, not our fault. I gave the explanation what's a mamzer in the Torah and Mishnah, as well in modern language what's an mamzer, and that Joseph was married to Mary and wasn't Jesus father, that makes him a mamzer, deal with it.

Jaguar Essence: Zanjan, you ignorant twat, Judaism IS the Hebrew religion of Abraham's teachings. You have NO claim that Abraham's teachings came from Khisna religion who is from Noah.

Focus in the damn topic, if you don't have the capability to do so, DON'T post anything.

Zanjan: The word "woman" is not offensive or nasty until it's applied to a man.

No evidence exists for Jesus's biology; only reports of His lineage. "Illegitimate" is not an offensive word; it's strictly a legal term; meaning, something that doesn't meet legal requirements. It doesn't imply "fraud", which is a felony.

When your fishing license expires, it's no longer legitimate. When you divorce, neither is your union.

To call anyone ( much less, the Christ) a "bastard", is to accuse and malign. THAT behaviour is not religiously legitimate.

Why were Mary and Joseph permitted in the Jewish Assemblies? Did they call Mary a slut? (pardon the graphic)

All children are born innocent of wrongdoing. You might have to re-align your thinking about why a wrong-doer isn't permitted into the Assembly of the Lord. Why that person's family might be cursed for generations. Who is doing the cursing - God or humans?

I have dealt with it. I know your judgment and you know mine. If you'd like divine judgments on Jesus and His family, refer to other scriptures.

Zanjan: Is the Assembly of the Lord a physical congregation, or is it "the Concourse on High" (heaven)?

Jaguar Essence: What that has to do with mamzer?
I DIDN'T say that Jesus is born out if sin, the fact is that Jesus is a mamzer because Joseph was Mary's legitimate husband and Jesus wasn't his son, regardless of the claim Jesus is G-d Himself and/or G-d's son. The law is about the birth of a child, who's the father and who's married to the mother.

Zanjan: Also, who is permitted into the Assembly of the Lord and who isn't. Let's not chop up the celery stalks and toss the leaves.

Jaguar Essence: Zanjan,

I'm not even addressing Jesus isn't G-d Himself nor Jesus is G-d's son, I'm ONLY pointing out why Jews see Jesus as a mamzer, because he wasn't Joseph's legitimate son.

Do you have any source of knowledge where says Jesus is Joseph's son?
ONLY if Jesus was Joseph's son he wouldn't be a mamzer, according to the law.

FistOfStone: i wonder if the authors of the gospels themselves intentionally portrayed jesus as a mamzer ... it reminds me of when jesus' disciples pluck grain on the sabbath and jesus defends them, in mark 2:23-38:

One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

so there is in the gospels this idea that jesus is an exception to the "law," even an emphatic exception that can look like a blatant breaking and flouting of the commandments, of course developed more by st paul in his epistles ... it wouldn't be surprising, then, if jesus is seen by the gospel writers to be a mamzer, this would be a deal breaker for most jews but a revelatory move for the followers of the jesus sect

(and let me just emphasize how important it is for two religions that share scriptures to understand where the other is coming from - that jews cannot accept jesus as messiah is just as understandable as that christians cannot accept the entire set of commandments as binding on christians ... what makes each faith distinctive is lost if we think it's just -clear- or -reasonable- that one is "right" and the other "wrong" ... what is at issue here is not clarity or reasonableness)

Jaguar Essence: Fist, I undoubtedly believe that the Christian path is equally important and valuable as mine, and actually ALL paths leads us to G-d, even being an atheist.

There're two types of Gospels, the official biblical Gospels in which Jesus is portrait as a G-d and divine, and the Gnostic Gospels where Jesus is portrait as a man.

The biblical Jesus, which I'm more familiar with, does show a lack of understanding the Torah/Tanakh, as example the Sabbath, they've the external understading which is the literal meaning, and lack the internal knowledge which can only be learn through a Rabbi or Rav.

The meaning of the Sabbath has an immense depth which is connected to the purpose of creation to Jews, by how we have to create G-d's Kingdom in a partnership with G-d, and to love others as ourselves. The restrictions of labor in the Sabbath aren't ritualistic only, but represent inner actions, which the Gospels are unaware of.

I doubt the intention of authors of the Gospels was to portrait Jesus as a mamzer, but it's obvious the lack of knowledge. Because the Gospel claims Jesus to be G-d Himself incarcerated and/or the son of G-d doesn't change what the law says, and because his mother was legitimately married to Joseph and Jesus isn't his son, that makes him a mamzer regardless of his divine claim.

I do agree with you, that Jesus is seen by Christianity to be the exception of the rule in the law and above Nature, because Jesus is G-d he's not bind by anything. Which is totally opposite to Jewish spiritual inheritance, one has to be pragmatic; as an example, miracles aren't supernatural events, but events under the laws of Nature against all odds.

The main reason I did this topic was because a dear friend of mine was put on the spot as a Jesus hater, when the reality she isn't, so I decided to show the pragmatism of Jews, why we see Jesus as a mamzer. So hopefully we can agree to disagree and recognize to each our own, without feeling offended by one another.

As well it's important to understand, that even though the Abrahamic religions may share the same names of the characters, or scriptures, all of them have very distinctive and different purposes of creation. One doesn't need to agree with one another if it contradicts, but each religious is responsible and accountable for their own spiritual validation and reassurance.

So even though I see Jesus as a mamzer, the fact is that Christianity is perfect as it is for Christians inconsequential to my perception, because G-d has a relationship with non-Jews as equally important and valuable as mine as a Jew. To me, even a Hindu is correct in his spiritual path, so I'm NOT proclaiming Judaism is the absolute true religion, it's MY truth, but it's not the truth for all. Which is fine, I know that a non-Jew isn't against me because they don't perceive as I do. So, a non-Jew path is as perfect as mine as a Jew.
I'm just sharing why Jews see Jesus as a mazer...

FistOfStone: oh for sure ee i know you respect my beliefs and i know that you know i respect yours ... and i think it's silly for christians to assume that the authors of the new testament documents interpreted judaism correctly ... that's not essential to our faith, what's essential is the relation between the gospel and the jewish tradition as the new testament sees it ... i think it's obvious that christianity's way of interpreting what we call the old testament cannot be a rationally defensible interpretation of those scriptures - to say that abraham and isaac on the mountain was a prefiguration of christ, noah and the flood was a prefiguration of christ, jonah and the whale, everything was (supposedly) a prefiguration of christ, on and the ark of the covenant was a prefiguration of the virgin mary ... lol ... we cannot claim to be able to -argue- for an interpretation like that, this is what -we- see in those scriptures, not something that we can tell the jews, who wrote the damn things themselves, that they ought to see too ... no, it does not surprise me at all that jews reject the christian interpretation of their scriptures, i can easily see how from a jewish perspective the whole thing would be absurd ... i can only beg that we be allowed to see what we see in them if only we can learn to respect their origins

FistOfStone: i'm talking too much, sorry, please continue with the main topic

Zanjan: Essence wrote something off topic : "how we have to create G-d's Kingdom in a partnership with G-d,"

I'll meet that off topic statement with: God created all the kingdoms, not us. Nobody made heaven except God. If there is only ONE God, then He has no peers or partners.

God decides the rules and tells His Revelators what they are. Social laws do change but the spiritual laws don't.

Neither Abraham, Moses, Jesus or Muhammad were priests or rabbis - they didn't need to be taught by anyone. The clergy do. Historically, God's Revelators come from any background EXCEPT the clergy. This is by the wisdom of God. I can think of one good reason why.

Apokalupto: Since you mentioned it Essence, id like to respond to your other claims being made.

Essence: "There're two types of Gospels, the official biblical Gospels in which Jesus is portrait as a G-d and divine, and the Gnostic Gospels where Jesus is portrait as a man."

Gospel literally means "Good news." The good news is that Jesus set people free from their sins and and took their sin onto Himself in order to save us by His own sacrifice on the cross. If Jesus is not God that is not good news at all since we do NOT believe in human sacrifice, human sacrifice cannot atone for sin, the Son of God only can take away sins by being sacrifice. So those "gnostic gospels" arent good news at all, in fact they are very bad news and they have never once been considered scripture or inspired or authentic by orthodox Christians and have never been included in the Bible.

Essence: "The biblical Jesus, which I'm more familiar with, does show a lack of understanding the Torah/Tanakh, as example the Sabbath, they've the external understading which is the literal meaning, and lack the internal knowledge which can only be learn through a Rabbi or Rav."

You are actually showing this lack of understanding in Christianity, it is the other way around. Jesus never meant to explain Judiasms pov on the sabbath in the passage you refer to. Jesus did not try to give an indepth explanation either, that was not the purpose of His discourse in that passage. Jesus point only was that He is Lord of the Sabbath, Sabbath is for man and that He is King of the Jews, and that He is as priest somewhat like David acted. Jesus recalled the story of David and in doing this Jesus was hinting at his own kingship (He already said He was Lord of the sabbath) but now hinted at being king, and also acting similarly to David in some priestly way when David was not even a Levite.

And a word to FistOfStone. Ive never spoken to you before and I don't know who you are. let me just preface that. But Jesus explicitly said that Jonah was a foreshadow of His own death. What Judaism does with it is not the point, it's what do the scriptures say. Jesus also made parallel connections with the rapture and Noah, and there are many more. To say its not about Jesus or the NT forshadow/parallel is to deny Jesus words and the New Testament.

Jaguar Essence: fistofstone
My Rav's Rav gave him an example of how perception works with the dynamics and mechanics of knowledge and understading. We're observing an airplane at a distance, we have no idea what are the exact measurements, each person is given binoculars with different grades of magnification. Every one is describing what exactly are seeing according to the grades of their binoculars magnification, and everyone is seeing a truth; which is in line with the tools they've.

For this reason, in Abraham's teachings, which have been guarded by Jews, we know exclusivity of salvation doesn't exist.
As well our sources of spiritual knowledge teach us that non-Jews have an equally important and valuable relationship with G-d just as Jews do. Meaning, there's ONLY One G-d understood differently, and what others understand to be is perfect for them. This is why in Judaism we don't proselytize, we know every single individual has a task to perform with the roll that's given, and we'll continue to reincarnate until our task is completed; this is why ALL paths, including being an atheist, take us to G-d eventually...

Zanjan: The GOOD news is that Jesus wasn't born out of wedlock. Mary and Joseph, according to the original betrothal plan, were married well before Jesus was born. Only Jewish clergy could have married them. Being the legal parents, Jesus wasnt a bastard.

Pegasos wrote: "we do NOT believe in human sacrifice,"

Which is what makes people unworthy for martyrdom.

History records a number of Jewish martyrs. There were also many early Christian martyrs. The Jewish clergy plotted to murder Jesus, not make Him into a martyr. That backfired.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan
You have a totally different understading than educated religious Jews have, your understanding is independent and inconsequential to us, is meant for you. However, you don't get to tell us how Jews have to interpret and understand our own spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, to each their own.

Abraham's teachings which have been guarded by Jews have teach us that G-d is the absolute Creator and Source of absolutely everything. As well Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources say that G-d created us in His imagine. We come here to experience life to discover ourselves, to work together in a partnership with G-d in order to correct the egoist nature G-d bestowed upon us.

Zanjan: You don't get to change historical records.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan
The Torah/Tanakh is written by Jews and speaks about the Jews' obligations.

IF Jesus was a Jew he's under the Halacha, which is meant to be for Jews ONLY, so, according to G-d Himself who gave the laws to Moses says Jesus is a mamzer.

IF Jesus wasn't a Jew, he is not under G-d's laws given to the Jews and he isn't a mamzer.

YOU don't get to tell us how to translate nor interpretation our own spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge, bring YOUR OWN WRITINGS of spiritual sources of knowledge, but don't pretend to know and understand our spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.

A wise Buddhist said once, if you want to know Buddha you MUST become Buddha.
The same concept goes with EVERY single religion and philosophical understadings, become IT to know what Jews are seeing in THEIR OWN spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge. The same goes for me to understand yours.

Zanjan: Historical fact: The Torah was delivered by Moses, a Revelator, and handed down in song by the Children of Israel. Aside from the stone tablets, the Torah wasn't copied into print until much later. The same is true for Jesus Christ.

Moses recounted the stories of what happened to belligerent, disobedient, and traitorous followers prior to and during His own lifetime. The same is true for Jesus Christ.

Anything outside the Torah is NOT Revelation; it's historical narrative written by ordinary men, which includes some prophecies. The same is true for Christianity (outside the 4 Gospels).

Prophecies are not Revelations, they're visions of the future. For that reason, they can't be properly understood until after they've come to fruition.

A Revelator is the only Authority Who can accurately explain and clarify misunderstandings and previous misguided notions. These Revelators are the divine Mediators for mankind. They, alone, are infallible.

Historical fact: Jesus the Christ is a recognized Revelator, an infallible Authority.

YOU have decided who is wise. So have I. WE can never become infallible - God sends one of Those approx every 500 - 1,000 years. He wouldn't do that without just cause. This is proof we're not as wise as we think.

Jaguar Essence: xrusaoros pegasos

As for the Gnostic Gospels you like it or not they portrait a different understanding of Jesus/Yeshua which contradicts the biblical Gospels, and more inclined with a Jewish perspective. To me, the fact that the Gnostic Gospels weren't destroyed as it was ordered by the Catholic Church in the Council of Nicaea, shows they were TWO different versions of Jesus/Yeshua the Jew, and as an educated religious Jew, I know that absolutely everything is G-d's will.

So, to me, it was G-d's will that the future generations have a choice to choose which version makes sense for them. As for me as a Jew, this discrepancies of Jesus's portrait is inconsequential to me, I'm not a Christian, Jesus isn't part of my spiritual inheritance nor path. I'm not responsible nor accountable for Jesus's torture, suffering, and death. I'm accountable and responsible for my own actions, reactions and interactions not Jesus/Yeshua.

"Jesus point only was that He is Lord of the Sabbath, Sabbath is for man and that He is King of the Jews, and that He is as priest somewhat like David acted."

Jesus can point out whichever and whatever he wants, the fact that by pointing out himself as the lord of the Sabbath, it shows Jesus had ZERO knowledge and understading of the internal knowledge and understading of the Torah.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

It seems you have an issue with reading comprehension. Your historical facts on Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge is incomplete. Your lack of knowledge presumes that Abraham's teachings, which are Jews' spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge started with Moses, actually it started almost 6000 years with Adam HaRishon.

Adam HaRishon's knowledge and understading was trickle down to each Hebrew biblical character; which has been an accumulative knowledge and understading. Jewish Oral Tradition started with Adam HaRishon, so before Moses received the Torah from G-d, Moses had ALREADY knowledge of our Oral Tradition. People like yourself who DON'T have knowledge of the depth of Judaic sources of knowledge are clueless when our beginning started.

As for myself, I've discovered that Judaism is my spiritual home where I have absolutely everything in one place. I've decided for myself what's best for me, I'm NOT denying that non-Jews spiritual leaders are wise, you presume that educated religious Jews believe in exclusivity of salvation. G-d ISN'T no one's property, my whole point is, you DON'T know Jewish's spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge to determine how we experience our own knowledge and understading of our spiritual inheritance.

Apokalupto: @Essence

Essence "Meaning, there's ONLY One G-d understood differently," that's not what the Torah says. Torah says that the nations worship false Gods and for that they are judged and cursed and diseased and ignorant.

Essence: -"and what others understand to be is perfect for them." That's not what the Torah says. Refer to explanation above for Gods view of that.


Essence: "This is why in Judaism we don't proselytize," The Jews like anyone else can do as they wish, but thats not what the Bible says.


The wisdom of Solomon
Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

David teaching
Psalms 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

The preaching of Jonah
Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Here is exclusive salvation in its physical form.^


Essence: "we'll continue to reincarnate until our task is completed; this is why ALL paths, including being an atheist, take us to G-d eventually" This is outright Pagan. This is nowhere to be found in the Torah.

Essence: "For this reason, in Abraham's teachings, which have been guarded by Jews" Your explanations in this chat do not reflect what is taught in the Torah or Bible. Essence, what ever you are guarding is something else entirely.

Essence: "As for the Gnostic Gospels you like it or not they portrait a different understanding of Jesus/Yeshua which contradicts the biblical Gospels,-" Correct, they contradict the Gospels.

"-and more inclined with a Jewish perspective." Your Jewish perspective? Or all Jews? Since your views seems to contradict the Torah all the time, it doesn't seem to matter if the forgeries agree with your perspective or not, and seeing that you are reject Torah teachings and believe and promote multiples reincarnate like Buddha and other weird stuff nowhere found in the Torah, then maybe Pagan Buddha will hear you out, but the Torah is Holy, that means it is separate.

Essence: "to, to me, it was G-d's will that the future generations have a choice to choose which version makes sense for them." That's not a view found in either the Torah or the Gospel, quite the contrary in fact.

Forget translations, idk WHAT "Torah" you're reading from, but it's not the law of Moses.

Essence: "shows Jesus had ZERO knowledge and understading of the internal knowledge and understading of the Torah." Jesus created the Sabbath, and as far as the Torah, He IS the word of God. What you teach is something else. Christians are fundamentalists, we go straight to the sources, Gospel and Torah, YOU do not, you believe in new age pagan spirituality. God judges these kinds of things but you don't believe that because you don't believe in the Torah.


Essence: "The Torah/Tanakh is written by Jews and speaks about the Jews' obligations." Generally speaking, I agree. Most of it is about Israel.

But what about Cain and Able, Enos, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, Methuselah, Job, Nineveh, Ishmael, etc. You are perhaps setting forth your own exclusivity.