Christian myths – which are the most rampant? (Page 2)

Zanjan: Edmund, those religions are properly named by Faith - Jewish, Hindu, and Buddhist.

I wouldn't include the Taoists because, like the Confuscionists, it's a local folk philosophy.

The "isms" were slapped on " AFTER their members got involved in civics, particularly after becoming state religions. The side connotation is fanaticism, which comes with a lust for power. Technically, that usage is a slur; also, it's habitually poor English. I've used it myself a few times only because I was being lazy.

Nobody will slur their own name but most intentionally do so to others. Muslims don't slur older religions. Fanatical Muslims only slur the Baha'i Faith because it's newer.

The Baha'is don't wittingly slur anybody or any group, religious or otherwise...can't speak for the newbies though; they're still dumping old habits.

You may say this is an assertion yet so is yours. That's testable.

Please find the source that calls the Bahai Faith by an ism and I'll show you ignorance or contempt. No offense intended - I have nothing against lemmings, they're cute and only do what their genetics tell them to do.

Zanjan: As for confession to priests, I cited the time period when this practice was instituted as a sacrament and as custom. Belief is not the point; the point is Christianity isn't based on wishful thinking, legends and folk tales.

Scriptures are to be understood as factual; whether one interprets them literally or figuratively is between them and God. You will find, in the texts, the call to abandon the traditions of their forefathers.

A myth is not a belief, it's a story that's NOT a fact. Myths are tools for entertainment and manipulation; mankind has been using them since the dawn of history. The story of confession to others, which the clergy foisted on believers, is NOT grounded in fact of scripture. It's merely a tool.

Who said the "Test for Confession" is when you die? Scriptures say God rewards in real-time. Take the test; then you'll know if you've got a good reward or not because you'll have it in hand. It's the only way to learn. Jesus explained this system in the text.

By the way, there are no traditions in the Baha'i Faith. Its heroes are certainly legendary yet every one of them is a genuine historical person with a recorded (often in real-time) and well-corroborated biography.

Zanjan: Every truth can be tested because it stands the test of time. God wouldn't give you a truth you couldn't prove. This is why Jesus didn't discuss science - it was too soon.

Whatever Joseph Smith said was testable, still is today. He claimed to have received a physical pack of gold tablets, along with several other objects. No one has been able to show proof this was a fact. Even HE couldn't prove it was true.

Thus, followers were resigned to mere belief, to blind faith. When faith is blind, it has no application, no force, no outcome; since it can't be defended, it bears no fruit.

Zanjan: By the way, it's not bigotry to disclose facts, nor is it bigotry to have different beliefs.

edmund_carey: I did not say that it was bigotry to disclose facts, or that it was bigotry to have different beliefs.

The "test", if you want to call it that, for confession, can only be receiving its benefits. The benefit of confession is forgiveness for sins, and because of that, salvation. No one can know whether they have that while they are alive. If you consider that the length of time that Christians have believed in the effectiveness of confession attests to its truth, then it is hardly appropriate to use the term "myth" to describe it.

I don't know about Hinduism, Buddhism, or Taoism, but, Christians, Jews, and Muslims generally consider themselves to have reasons to believe what they do. They do not see their faith as "blind". They see it as rooted in facts which can themselves be established, and which warrant faith in things which cannot. That would be your mentality as well. That God revealed himself to Baha'ullah or the Bab is quite beyond objective testing, but there may be reason to believe it. If you are impressed by those reasons, which by far most of humanity are not, then you believe it. I wouldn't call that "blind".

And it is not poor English to refer to Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism by those terms. It is universal English usage. The terms were not "slapped on" at any point. They have nothing to do with political ideology. None of those faiths have ever been "state religions" anywhere. I'm not sure why this is an issue with you, but, English usage isn't a matter of choice. Those are simply the terms.

chronology: Zan, you have again shown your extensive knowledge of all religions.

Zanjan: Edmond, the only test for salvation is to have become born again - Jesus described that too and there was no mention of confession in it.

The pursuit of salvation is not a show of remorse or contrition - it's a mystical quest into divine knowledge, quite another subject. The theme is too deep for a quick study here.

Suffice to say, it can't occur without assistance from the Lord of the Age - it's the transition to a new world and state of being; only a few find the path and become changed. Once is enough because there is only one test.

Edmond: "No one can know whether they have that [forgiveness/salvation] while they are alive:

If that were the case, religion would be futile and God would be impotent. Results depend upon means. God forgives your failure but no cigar until you succeed.

Here are the means: God guides by sending the right lessons; for each lesson, there's a trial - that is, the right test for each individual. No one can devise them. If we pass one, we're very happy and go on to a new lesson.

If we fail, God sends that same test again and again; since we usually have a few go-arounds, we become very familiar with that test. Once passed, the test never returns. That's how one knows.

With each test passed, one's spiritual grade increases. This becomes known to the indiviual as he goes from strength to strength. That's why the strongest lovers of God beg Him for tests, and also for forgiveness - they go hand in hand.

Zanjan: Edmond: "If you consider that the length of time that Christians have believed in the effectiveness of confession attests to its truth, then it is hardly appropriate to use the term "myth" to describe it."

Where did you come up with that time requirement? From the Mosaic or Christian calendar? Many humans have been wrong all their lives; some, for just one hour. One's perspective doesn't create a truth, neither does mass psychogenic illness.

How can one testify to "effectiveness" without evidence of such? Not very scientific.

If salvation exists, there would be evidence of its presence. If you don't see it, then direct your gaze elsewhere until your eyes spot it. The Apostles testified it occurred in themselves and they saw it occur in others. What, exactly, did they see?? What did they do about it? They said 'this can happen to you too'. I'm fairly sure their teaching efforts would have been very unconvincing if it no one saw those results.

I don't have to know what someone's sins are to recognize failure or success. I've never seen anyone charging away excitedly from a confession booth, trumpeting "I'm free, I see, I see!!! God be praised!!

Zanjan: "That would be your mentality as well."

I don't put faith in things I can't see... I trust God to know what I can't and let Him take care of that. My faith is in divine principles and laws that have been proven to work.

A religion can't be blind, only individuals can be. Jesus discussed that too.

"That God revealed himself to Baha'ullah or the Bab is quite beyond objective testing, but there may be reason to believe it. "

I assure you, there are, indeed, objective tests - God told us what they are, they're written in scripture. If you know them, you'll apply them. These are just surface proofs. If one isn't prepared, they'll make excuses - for them, nothing will ever be enough.

"None of those faiths have ever been "state religions" anywhere."

Oh dear, I think you should consult an encyclopedia. The authors were paid to settle disputations. I'm not.

Zanjan: Chron, your remarks are very kind. Edmund hasn't been around Wire that long; I'm sure he'll discover new things on his own, if only by accident.

Fractured fairy tale: you wouldn't have a clue what your talking about , Your presuming Catholisism is Christianty
That's as rediculas as Saying Aliens Visit earth

Zanjan: Apparently, you're new to Wire as well.

You seem to think I've never stepped into a church. I haven't mentioned the name of any Christian denomination in this topic so far.....please provide a quote.

This may come as a surprise to you - there are six branches of Christianity and tens of thousands of denominations spread through them. They are divided into two theologies - Eastern and Western. Given more time, there will probably be an official northern and southern too.

NDW, truth is stranger than fiction.

Fractured fairy tale: Yeah you did you mentioned the Catholic Church in your first Post Zanjan
Devided into two Eastern and western yeah but it was still Catholicism tho wasn't it
Does Wire work different than the Rest of the World Is it a Cult

Zanjan: Ooops, I stand corrected. It was from a copy of my post in another topic where the OP deleted my posts without just cause.

It wasn't my intention to focus on any denomenation but to open the topic with the MOST common myths. The thread proceeded way beyond Catholic tradition; they arent the only denomnation with priests.

Catholicism didnt exist prior to the division of theologies, which occured 1000 years after Christ. All denomenations choose one or the other. There are different Catholic churches - the Roman Catholics have western theology; most other catholics have eastern theology. However, it's not so cut and dried today as it was in medeval times. Protestants use a wide variety of liturgical practices.

For example, some protestant churches have a kind of confession they call testimonials; during the service, the individual airs their dirty laundry in front of the whole congregation - they don't even know how demeaning that is. Others call up the Minister and go over all their problems with Him/her; it's supposed to be confidential but they sometimes let things slip out during service. No wonder Ministers get burned out!

No one realizes this wasn't how the early church operated.

Zanjan: Wireclub has the poor man's version of religious dialogue....quite informal. Lots of rednecks and peasants here...it's like street talk. When I miss academic aproaches, I go to other sites for that. Academics can get nasty too but cleverly, as they dig into more obscure aspects of scriptures and deeper cultural influences.

The same groups exist in off-line life. Generally, they stay at arm's length but I've always felt comfortable moving in any circle. Something is only a "cult" when you don't understand it.

chronology: 'Peasants' ? Can't think of Rednecks on wire Zan. And there are no Peasants at all. Peasants are a definite social group like Gypsies.
The nearest North America has to Peasants are Amish and Mormon folks. Peasants have more or less died out as a social group. The last few Peasant communities are probably in Russia, France, Italy, and Spain.

Zanjan: Chron, "peasants" are not an ethnic group, they're common folk. The antiquated form applied to villagers and farmers.

In modern society, peasants are those who haven't completed a university education or, if they have, they're not using it. They're anybody outside the circles of aristocracy. For example, movie stars and tribal chieftains are not peasants regardless of their level of education.

Thankfully, modern civilization is gradually moving away from the class system - not fast enough so, there's still work to be done in our use of language. It's not correct to use the term "working class" anymore. It's not a tax bracket. We use the term "workforce".

Anyone who earns income by any means is working, no matter how rich or poor they are. Anyone who's engaged in an occupation is working, even when they're unpaid. Rank should be based on having achieved some kind of *individual* distinction.

We have Gypsies in North America but they're not nomadic and we call them Romas. They live in regular homes and can have any religion each individual chooses. You'd be surprised how many are famous movie actors. The other kind of Gypsy is the Irish Travellers - those are nomadic. I've only seen them at pubs (when I was young); they were born in Ireland.

"Redneck" has several meanings - I apply it to an undisciplined attitude, wherever it may be.

chronology: Interesting Zan. But a Peasant is seen here as a person engaged in farm work, has a number of generations living in the same place and is superstitious they also have distinctive dress. Amish people would be seen as typical peasants.
It is a little weird that North America has more Peasants than Western Europe.

According to Marxists England had the first Working Class. Unskilled people who work in large Industrial Enterprises. American Working Class people had such a high standard of living they needed a new term. 'American Blue Collar' is what they are often called.

Zanjan: I know the kind you're talking about. My husband's parents were born in the Ukraine - they were German but not peasants. They had snapshots of peasant life there. Rather timeless.

That's a world away from us here. Although we have numerous colonies of time-locked communes, they cheat with the modern conveniences - nothing but the best new, top of the line trucks, farming equipment, and kitchen appliances. The Amish, a very small group, are stricter; yet even for them, there's really no way to escape modernity completely.

Perhaps it's human weakness - they've all shucked the bucksaw in favour of power tools, refrigerators, and natural gas heating. They're not above asking for deliveries by truck, will go to the doctor's office in town then eat KFC. Maybe it's just plain reason.

Seems to me if you work at anything long enough, you'll become very skilled. Well, we've strayed terribly off topic. The floor is open for myth-hunting.

Fractured fairy tale: Still Head hunters In the Forests of PNG, Altho I don't think hey Head hunt any more but there Pretty close

Fractured fairy tale: But I suppose No one with Pig Arrogance of People like Chronology , Went to set them Free
While Eyeing off all the Blackwood , for the Living Standards of Americans

Solvento: Can't you kill those for me? Why weigh in that I MUST genocide for you? No, but answer because I'm counting it down.

Fractured fairy tale: all good The Chinese Will prolly save Us all the effort .

Solvento: You're a retarded fool...ok...no one will do the thing for you that you will not do which is your BIRTH RIGHT.

Solvento: Therefore.....circumsicion and genocide. duh!