The Truth about the Talmud (Page 5)

Apokalupto: people make public "truth" comments on religion all the time on wire, including yourself, so based on that you shouldn't have anything to complain about right? if you have anything to complain about then you should start with yourself, be the example you want to see in the world.

DontNeedChrist:

Nobody is complaining except you. I simply asked what her expertise is on the Talmud since she's claiming to know the "truth." I will not repeat myself again. Scroll up and reread to see my responses to your incessant claims. The question was not directed to you. Let that sink in.

Apokalupto: the topic of the thread is not a self proclamation of expertise on the talmud and nor does it actually state that she is the bearer of Truth on the talmud, and I doubt you'll get such a comment from her unless it already exists in this thread.

so please, do us all a favor and stop trying to accuse her (and anyone else) of acting like they are trying to be the truth bearer. I don't agree with the zan on almost every topic we've ever discussed, but I don't have to to be able to see a power tactic, trying to keep people from commenting on the talmud, or just being automatically disqualified based on nothing other than a hypocritical credential necessity which you yourself do not abide by.

so what are your credentials what are your expertise on the gospel and the New Testament? since you often make your own comments supposedly bearing truth about it. i'll say again, start with yourself, look in the mirror and make the change that you want to see in the world.

DontNeedChrist:

She can speak for herself. She doesn't need you as her spokeshole. Now slither back to your dank and empty chat room and don't forget to blow the cobwebs off.

Apokalupto: we're still going to talk about the talmud, I don't see this thread just disappearing. you have added mostly nothing but flames and contention. continually constellating bitter thoughts and emotions produces a warped output view of reality. some wholesome advice.

DontNeedChrist:

Talk about whatever you want. My question wasn't answered. That speaks volumes.

Apokalupto: and has already been pointed out your question about credentials is nonsensical and unnecessary. speak for yourself before expecting things from other people. as much as you would like the "volumes" to speak of others, to the same degree, they speaks of yourself.

Apokalupto: I guess I don't understand any of it since you've followed me here and made comments toward me. lol 😂

Apokalupto: and your request for credentials on the talmud is silly because you don't hold yourself to your own standards. I think that's pretty worthy to reply to so people don't get out of line and push other people around.

Apokalupto: I have not requested any credentials.

I have not followed you into another thread and have entire conversations with you and then somehow expect you to believe that you're following me because I commented.- that never happened even if you try to twist it.

you're acting like a copycat because I told you not to follow me around the forums like a puppy and now you're going around the threads that I'm already commenting in and telling me not to follow you like a puppy. lol. dude get real.

you haven't provided anything but contention, insults, wasting people's time while acting hypocritically. you are trolling, stop. the rest of your accusations are not true.


why do you care what she deletes, you've literally provided next to nothing, lol.

Apokalupto: when I made a comment to Zan here why did I immediately see your comment addressed to me? and proceeded to ask me questions.

there's another thread that you did the same thing in, the moment I commented I saw your comment right below mine addressed to yours truly. these are only the two most recent events.

it really isn't that big of a deal, it really really isn't, except for the fact that you are acting hypocritically and filling this thread with your bitter remarks and insults and warped view of events.

if you want to stay, then stay, but please add something substantial to the thread topic for once instead of this trolling nonsense. dude needs to put in a little more effort into forum ethics, no one's perfect but you could do a lot better.

lastly, stop casting insults and then running.

Apokalupto: I may have been speaking for Zan but more importantly I'm standing up against hypocrisy.

I can tolerate a little bit of rude, but you are way out of line. you have been casting insult after insult now when you could have been participating in the topic and actually giving answers to people who are asking, but instead you chose to punk.

to punk and to ask credentials, credentials which you refuse to abide by but expect from others. not acceptable.

Zanjan: I'll advise for the last time - please take your dust-ups to a private room.

Zanjan: XP, people can certainly Google information; unfortunately, that doesn't prevent the word on the street from trumping it. Some people find it easier to pick a brain than do research - the problem is they pick any old brain.
If only it were possible to inject discernment into their veins!

Apokalupto: if people are not accountable in a public forum how much less are they going to be accountable in a private chat? waste of time is a waste of time. lol

I am sorry for the mess, I'm used to seeng this very chronology of events play out in my own threads. I've become accustomed to deleting trolls comments since they have no value, or just being very strict. if you want to delete all of it because it's off topic feel free I'm not going to be annoyed.
_________
forums are for conversation, presenting information and asking and receiving information. I think there are some tidbits in talmud or elsewhere of rabbis suggesting that the Christ will come from Bethlehem using Micah 5. I'm actually very surprised that throughout the years I have found quite a few instances where there were teachings or rabbis who spoke about or believed things like this about the Christ. today you don't hear those things from Jews, it seems to me that some of them were closer to understanding Christ than they are today, and I wonder why that is. perhaps this is the issue with evolving and changing oral traditions, idk.

it's interesting to see what kind of conversations and expectations were constellating around their brains in ancient times. I don't mind picking someone's brain, I like to pick the brains of historical figures as it were too. for example, the week's leading up to Michael Jackson's death, he related Hamlet to himself and there was a particularly scene that was mentioned as well, so I read the whole play of Hamlet to help me circumvent his thoughts and to see what was constellating in his mind. I would post a scene from Hamlet but this thread is not about that so I digress.

Apokalupto: " Some people find it easier to pick a brain than do research - the problem is they pick any old brain.
If only it were possible to inject discernment into their veins!"

especially on wire club. I've been given incomplete or false and misleading information not a few times. as a default I don't fully believe what people tell me, it's merely used as a conversation or as a starting point for further investigation on my own.

Apokalupto: here is a response to Psalm 110 with an interpretation coming from the talmud. I will give my own explanations using the KJV.

(someone writes in to ask a rabbi this question)
Psalm 110 – Two Lords
Please explain what this verse means: “The Lord said unto my Lord, "Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool” (Psalm 110:1). Doesn’t this verse imply there is another Lord besides God?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:
Thank you for raising your important issue. According to the Talmud (Sanhedrin 108b), the second lord refers to Abraham. King David is praising God for helping his lord Abraham in his battle against the four kings (Genesis 14). (See vv. 4-5 which refer to Melchizedek and to battling kings.) Abraham and his servants were so severely outnumbered that there was no way he could have overcome his opponents through his own efforts. It was rather as if God had told Abraham to sit down as a spectator, and to simply watch God’s salvation.

XP: close but no cigar. this may be an allusion to Abraham and Melchizedek but the psalm is too David, it is applied to him.


the rabbi continues.
Others explain that this psalm was written by an unnamed different author in King David’s honor (as the psalm begins “To David” – implying the psalm was dedicated to him rather than being written by him). Thus, “my lord” is a reference to David, and the psalmist is praising God for all the salvations He wrought on behalf of the king (Ibn Ezra, Radak, see Malbim).

XP: we're getting much closer. Jesus said that David said this in the spirit, in other words if David was not the actual physical pen holder
that wrote the psalm, it was attributed to him in spirit. similarly there may be an allusion to Abraham but it's to David, it's applied to him and to the Messiah.

the rabbi continues.

I should note that the second “lord” in Hebrew is not “ado-nai” – the term the Torah reserves for God, but “adoni”. The latter is a simple Hebrew word which means “my lord” but is not sacred. Throughout the Torah that word is used in reference to honored human beings but never to God, e.g. Genesis 18:3, 23:6, 24:18, 31:35, 33:8, 34:14, 44:18, etc. Thus, it was incorrectly capitalized in your translation. In fact, Hebrew has no capital letters so capitalizations which are found in English translations are merely based on translators’ assumptions, and as you can see, are not always reliable.

XP: Hebrew has its own grammar but when we're translating it into another language we're not meant to use Hebrew grammar in the translation, we are supposed to use the language that it's being translated into in its own grammar and usage.

how the KJV uses the word "LORD, Lord, lord" (LORD God, Lord God, GOD, God, Lord Almighty, the Almighty God, the Most High etc are other variations of how the KJV renders some of the names of God but will not be discussed here) the following applies only to the Old Testament.

KJV distinguishes between different names of God-

-and different words that may just refer to a human master or lord depending on the capital letters, I'm not sure the same could be said of other translations.

the KJV translates the tetragrammaton into English as LORD. (there are a few other variations but that's another subject)

the KJV uses the word Lord with only the letter L being capitalized in a few different ways. Lord can refer to dignitaries, kings, angels, masters.

one can use the word "Lord" to refer to angels and God, just as one can use the word King for God as well. ex. exodus 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

I do not know if any of the names of God are ever translated into the KJV as Lord. if anyone has a source for that or scriptural evidence from the KJV I definitely want to know about it.

lord in all lower case refers to sirs, the man of the house, an employer or boss/master

my King James Bible says:

Psalm 110
The LORD said unto my Lord,
-Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

there is no mistranslation in this, and no deception and no confusion. the confusion lies on the part of him who doesn't know the translation he's reading from.

in the Greek New testament the word being used here can mean God or a man, because the Greek does not differentiate so it also is not a mistranslation.

Matthew 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?


Jesus is trying to get them to think, he's saying that if David (in spirit) calls his descendant (Messiah) master or Lord how is he his son? the point being that you don't call your son your master, therefore questioning who really is the Lord here? or who really is the master? and the "descendant" of david, whose son is he really? the scriptures call the Messiah God's son. the Jews took issue with Jesus calling himself the Son of God.

amoregrowers: It comes down to this. Do you trust G-d enough to believe HE delivered HIS message to HIS people?

This is the building block of all Oral traditions rather Talmud or Gospels.

The disagreement is simple. Christianity and some other religions do not consider the Talmud authoritative or Holy and likewise Jews feel the same about the NT.

Yet both are a continued commentary and tradition from ones belief system rooted in Written Torah

Here is my take.

Jesus told his followers to listen and do as the pharisees said but not as they do.

The primary focus of the pharisees was the oral Torah, and the sadducees were strictly
Written Torah. According to Jesus they lacked a balance and you can see these things in Talmud.

Neither,were teaching falsehoods as seen by the fact Jesus said to do what they say.

Keep in mind
Resurrection of dead
1000 year reign
Baptism/Mikvah. Water purification
Healing and other gifts

These are fundamental to Judaism and Christianity yet the teaching of these things come from Oral Torah.

The Talmud goes into great detail about many aspects of Observance of Torah, ceremonies etc.

When DNC was alluding to being fluid, he is simple stating that things change so we adapt.

Temple destroyed and may other events have caused Jews to adapt. You cant obey some Torah laws without Temple etc. So things change

Like a Rabbi recieving money.. in Torah people brought the meat veggies and bread and portions of land given to priesthood.

Well now we use currency. And people need to be supportive.

Women reading Torah

Teaching Kabbalah to gentiles etc.

So the Talmud addresses the subject along with ethics in business and life in general.

And yes I have listen to many Jewish kabbalist speak of particular Talmudic writings that are very coded and esoteric. So the use and possibilities of Talmud are endless.

What is the goal. To unify with the Creator. To cleve to HIM. To ascend and be transformed. To live a pure life and leave the next generation the keys.

I will end with this quote. Not sure who said it.

Don't let your food get cold while worrying about whats on someone else's plate..