LIES ABOUT THE TALMUD (Page 8)

DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

THE CLAIM:
Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations. Rosh Hashanah 17a

THE TEXT:
But the heretics; and the informers; and the apostates [apikorsim]; and those who denied THE TORAH; and those who denied the resurrection of the dead; and those who separated from the ways of the Jewish community and refused to share the suffering; and those who cast their fear over the land of the living; and those who sinned and caused the masses to sin, for example, Jeroboam, son of Nebat, and his company; all of these people descend to Gehenna and are judged there for generations and generations, as it is stated: “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die; neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh” (Isaiah 66:24).

SUMMARY:
First –
The text does not use the word "minnim". It uses the term apikorsim which is plural for Jews that are lax in observing Jewish law or who do not believe in Judaism; also a skeptic or even an atheist. It refers to Jews. NOT CHRISTIANS.

Second –
The Hebrew word "minnim" is completely misused. Arba minnim or sheva minnim means "types" like different species or different types of Jews. The claim misleads the reader into thinking it's a disparaging term for christians which is false. The author of this claim clearly has no knowledge of Hebrew.

Third –
This is commentary regarding apostate Jews who disregard Judaism; Torah; and G-d; cause other Jews to stray from Judaism; and their spiritual fate. It says nothing about denial of the Talmud by christians. Christians are not obligated to study Talmud at all. This is clearly about wayward Jews who reject Judaism.


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GeraldtheGnome
GeraldtheGnome: Thanks for that. What else is there that is lied about or at least falsely claimed about The Talmud where in The Talmud it is shown that the direct opposite is true ?
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Read from the beginning of the thread. Lot's to be learned.

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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

THE CLAIM:
“May the bones of the hands and the bones of the fingers decay and decompose, of him who turns the pages of the book of Daniel, to find out the time of Moshiach in Daniel 9:24–27, and may his memory rot from off the face of the Earth forever.” – Talmudic Law, page 978, Section 2, line 28.


SUMMARY:
There is no such book with the title “Talmudic Law." This quote does not exist. The Talmud itself is divided into tractates (mesechtos) and references are always given by the tractate name and the folio/side (daf/amud). No tractate of the Talmud has 978 pages or folios nor are they divided into numbered sections. This is just complete fabrication.

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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

THE CLAIM:
Rabbis after the time of christ have pronounced a curse on anyone who would attempt to calculate the dates of this chapter (Daniel 9). – Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino ed., p. 659


SUMMARY:
There have been several cases that reference Sanhedrin 97b that badly mangle what it originally said. This quote purports to be from the Soncino edition, a well known English translation of the Talmud. However, such a quote DOES NOT appear in the Soncino edition nor does the original text translate as such. One would think that an obvious tip-off that it was not an actual quote was its use of the word “christ," something no Jewish translation would do. The original source makes no reference to Daniel 9 nor does it imply that the curse is referring to Daniel 9.

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God is real
God is real: And from the day that the wicked kingdom, i.e., Rome, spread, who decree evil and harsh decrees upon us, and nullify Torah study and the performance of mitzvot for us, and do not allow us to enter the celebration of the first week of a son, i.e., circumcision, and some say: To enter the celebration of the salvation of a firstborn son; by right we should each decree upon ourselves not to marry a woman and not to produce offspring, and it will turn out that the descendants of Abraham our forefather will cease to exist on their own, rather than being forced into a situation where there are sons who are not circumcised.


Talmud Bava Batra 60b

The word in hebrew for salvation is actually a name(Yeshua).It obviously praises Christ.The talmud is jewish polemics and debates therefore its normal to agree and disagree with itself but its very clear most of the talmud is written as responses and comentaries and polemics of the chrisitan influence on judaism. The rabbi that wrote this segment seems to agree with Paul the apostle theology.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Where to begin with this misguided garbage?

First: Bava Batra 60b is hundreds of pages long but you cherry picked one paragraph out of context to prove some delusional point about jesus christ because you saw the word "salvation."

Bava Batra 60b is focused on the rules of acquisition of property: land, fields, courtyard, parapets, roofs, balconies, pits, cisterns, rights-of-way and the like. You stumbled upon a sentence that translates the word to "salvation" and in knee-jerk fashion immediately concluded it's about the christian god which is a crazy stretch.

WHAT IS THIS PARAGRAPH ACTUALLY ABOUT?
It's discussing the destruction of the second Temple and the edicts Rome and other occupying nations have decreed in history forbidding Jews from fulfilling basic Jewish mitzvot like Torah study, observance of holidays, the REDEMPTION of the first-born, etc.

What is redemption of the first-born? (Pidyon Haben). It's a ceremony wherein the father of a first-born male redeems his son by giving a Kohen (a priestly descendent of Aaron) five silver coins, thirty days after the baby's birth.

This is what the paragraph is referring to. Pidyon Haben. Not praise to jesus. Not even close.

Go here: https://aish.com/pidyon_haben_-_redemption_of_first_born/


Second: The word GEULAH means salvation or more accurately redemption. The word is not a name but the name Yehoshua (Joshua in English) does means salvation but jesus was not named Joshua so your point makes no sense and is lost. It doesn't matter what the name Joshua means because he was never named that and the tractate is not talking about anyone named Joshua it mentions the redemption (salvation) of the first-born. Also the word GEULAH is not a name. Just because a name means salvation does not point to exclusively christ. That's a baseless statement and wishful thinking.

PROOF: YouTube

PROOF: https://www.thejc.com/judaism/jewish-words/geulah-1.8102


THIRD: "its very clear most of the talmud is written as responses and comentaries and polemics of the chrisitan influence on judaism."

Completely false. The Talmud discusses JUDAISM, not christianity. Another baseless claim derived from reading christian internet propaganda. There is NO influence of christianity on Judaism. You can believe that all you want but it's a patent lie.


CONCLUSION:
Funny, the very next paragraph which you ignore is the conclusion of the tractate and says:

"But concerning a situation such as this, the following principle is applied: LEAVE THE JEWS ALONE and do not impose decrees by which they cannot abide. It is better that they be unwitting sinners, who do not know that what they are doing is improper considering the circumstances, and not be intentional wrongdoers, who marry and procreate despite knowing that they should not."

LEAVE THE JEWS ALONE. That goes for you too. You have yet again shown your ignorance of Hebrew and the Talmud. Please stop making a fool of yourself. Just please stop.

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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: My goodness, the stupidity said by gir.

Thank you DNC for creating this topic and clarifying the absurdities that are said by non Jews.
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God is real
God is real: I can respond but i doubt you care.In fact you posted youtube video ? Since when do you use youtube ? I can post you youtube from talmudic experts to prove my point.Then what you are going to do ? Accuse the source ? Its irrelevant man
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: LOL @ gir using Talmudic experts that will prove his point. Those aren't Talmud experts but clowns who have no ethics. They'll use by all means to connect the so called points to create their narrative ignoring facts.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Go ahead and post your proofs with YouTube “experts.” Looking forward to shredding their credibility. You failed to respond to my lengthy rebuttal of your misguided claim — as expected.

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God is real
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

I am not familiar with this fellow but he is certainly allowed to have an opinion. That said, just because one Jewish source expresses an opinion does not make it everyone's opinion or the truth.

I also fail to see how this video addresses your claim that any part of the Talmud is praising jesus christ because it uses a translation of the word for salvation.

A hilarious side note: one of your Jewish "scholars" Peter Shafer has bashed Boyarin's theories about early Judaism so even your so-called Jewish "sources" disagree with each other.

Go here for proof:
https://bltnotjustasandwich.com/2012/05/31/peter-schfer-slams-daniel-boyarinscholarly-brawl/

Also this guy is anti-Isreal:
https://knowbdsinisrael.com/lecturers/daniel-boyarin/


(Edited by DontNeedChrist)
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God is real
God is real: It is normal for there to be slight disagreements but even if you read the article the most prominent idea that there are 2 divine powers in heaven at best described in the Tanak still stands and is supported by both.Rest is not that important to figure out.Again my whole point from these videos are to say that a substantial portion of the talmud is developed from jewish vs christian polemics and they try to reason it there. i dont really care who is pro or anti israel.I care about the content and the actual scholarship.Ask Boyarin or Shafer on the early jewish views.Both will agree the messiah appears to be divine. Dont miss the overall point.The point is your Talmud argues vs itself thats why some places the rabbis guess correctly and others are totally confused.Its a polemic ...simple as that.They themselves record christian interpretation of some Tanak verses.
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God is real
God is real: i dont really bother to find you specific talmudic quotes because the people i post in the videos already do that.The point is to get the overall idea
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

The Talmud IS NOT developed from Jewish vs. christian polemics. That is your fantasy. The Talmud deals with JUDAISM. Period.

Your harvesting of one individual from the bowels of the internet that makes a claim that you happen to agree with does not change that fact.

We're done with this topic. Any further posts about this will be deleted. You're a distraction.

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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Well said DNC, I find delusional how the Christians go desperately to find their narrative; which goes against all what Judaism and Torah is about.

Christians have built a religion on sand, just like Islam, a mutated version of Juwish spiritual inheritance. They always go back to our religious text to find meaning and depth to validate a corruption of the purpose of creation given to Jews by G-d according to Torah. We are indeed the light of the world for them, they seek in our knowledge and relationships with G-d to define their own.
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God is real
(Post deleted by DontNeedChrist 1 year ago)
E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e:
totally clueless as usual.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

THE CLAIM:
The Talmud speaks of jesus' death - Sanhedrin (43a)


THE TEXT:
"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hanged him on the eve of Passover.

Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him. Yeshu was different because he was close to the government."


SUMMARY:
There are several Yeshus mentioned in the Talmud because it was a common name. The person in question is Yeshu ben Pandira who lived about 80 years BCE. The passage in question is speaking of a Yeshu (not jesus, the timing is wrong -- this man was executed 80 BCE, before jesus was even born). He was condemned for sorcery (jesus was supposedly condemned for blasphemy). This Yeshu was hanged and stoned. The christian jesus was supposedly crucified which isn't even mentioned here.

The Talmud tells us that this Yeshu was “influential” (literally “connected with the Roman authorities”), and was said to have had FIVE students: Mattai, Nakkai, Nétzěr, Buni, and Todah.
jesus had 12 apostles and none was named Nétzěr and jesus was not influential with the Romans.

Yeshu in this Talmudic passage had five followers who were executed, too. One of the five was named Nétzěr. This passage simply mentions one of the five followers was NAMED Nétzěr.

Yeshu in this Talmudic passage had his execution deferred for 40 days. jesus was killed immediately after being condemned (per the christian bible -- total nonsense, but that is what it says).

On top of all that Matthew doesn’t claim there was a prophecy that “he will have a student named Nétzěr." Matthew claims that it was prophesied that jesus was going to be called a “Nazarene" but there is no such prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.

This passage is not about the christian jesus. The timing is wrong, the punishment is wrong, the number of apostles is wrong. It's all wrong.

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God is real
(Post deleted by DontNeedChrist 1 year ago)
DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Your post was deleted because you're making unfounded claims about and against the Talmud.

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God is real
(Post deleted by DontNeedChrist 1 year ago)
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