Bava Metzia 59b and rabbinic sages (Page 2) God is real: i have read the story of the oven.one rabbi vs the opinion of several other rabbies and when he demonstrate pretty much miracles the others reject him still.Also it is said he had the power to destroy the whole world  DontNeedChrist: At least GIR knows the gist of the STORY. A STORY. A METAPHOR. A FABLE. A LESSON. NOT LITERAL. NOT LAW. NOT SCRIPTURE. Yes, it's about an oven. I'm sure that will come to the surprise of butttler and the others who feel it's not important to read about what your own forum topic is about. God is real: actually you are wrong.It is taken litearlly in orthodox judaism.In fact your tradition does literally believe the lesson of the story which is that even God cant overrule the rabbies understanding and interpretation of scriptures.Also teachers have told me that orthodox judaism believes MOSES Isaiah and few others also had the power to destroy the entire world.Thats too much (Post deleted by DontNeedChrist ) God is real: you can ask me in private and i will give you coordinates to check for yourself and when you talk to the people you can ask their credentials  amoregrowers: First off lets dig into the christian scriptures to see more clearly our lack of understanding in these matters and study regarding the oral Law which Jesus quoted and practiced. BTW it was the following of the oral law which made him hated by the self righteous. First Jesus was a devout follower of the Law and told his followers to obey what the Rabbis said Matt 23: 1-3 This means Jesus wanted people to follow Halakha Law which is the collective body of written and oral When Jesus was ask what the most important commandment was he quoted the beginning of the most important prayer in Judaism The ' Shema' . Which was put in the Teffilin box and its recited twice a day by observant Jews. Jesus was a righteous person or a Tzaddik. Which was someone whos Torah observances went beyond the letter of the Law. It means Jesus would have worn The Tallit and Tzitzit. Which if you know the oral you could make sense of the unclean bleeding woman touching the fringe or corner of his garment. Many of Jesus blessings and prayers were from the oral. The lords prayer is a shortened version of the Amidah. See the 3rd 5th 6th 9th 15th 18th benediction of the Amidah He recited the halachic blessings over matzah and wine when he gave thanks at meals (Luke 22:19-20). The prayers in the siddur are not scripture but tradition just as many Chatholic prayers. Which is oral tradition Jesus Healed on the sabbathTosefta Shabbat 15b'Sukkah 49b, ' told a man to carry his mat on sabbath ,Sudy the Rabbi laws on eruv. It is well known that G-ds laws can be laid aside to help someone in need. This is Oral tradition. I could go on and on showing how Jesus quoted many midrash sayings. And just about every instance where Jesus is accused of disobeying the commands of G-d he is actually following the oral law. Also common sayings by christianity: You are blind You are carnal You live by the flesh You call yourself the church the true Israel and anyone who does not believe like you lacks spiritual understanding and is only led by the carnal flesh 'animal instinct ' so Christians have no problem calling non believers animals. So are you really seeking to understand the beliefs of your Jewish savior or is this your "gotcha" to show that Judaism is inferior to christianity? You can not de-judaize or de-hebrew anything from a Jewish Hebrew Tzaddik named Jesus, or the Torah. If the Torah written /Oral and Judaism was important and perfect enough for G-d to preserve and send his son to be raised in its ways. Then you can take it to the bank that we should seek understanding in all its ways. This would even include the Bava Metzia. The major debate of acts wasnt how to create a new religion. The debate was how to bring this new mass of gentile believers into Judaism and what would be required. Circumcision sabbath dietary guidelines etc. The apostles saught out the Jewish council for direction. You see it was determined by the apostles after Jesus left to figure out what to do. Guess what they did... Are you ready... THEY OVERRULED GOD'S COMMANDS. Now,jew & gentile seekers of the G-d of Abraham were told they didnt have to convert and follow the commands of written and OralTorah to be "Israel" Just believe and be baptized... G-d did not and does not change.... Jesus did not change Judaism, He reinstated its truthfulness. The Jewish council never demanded Gentiles be Jews. It was simple ...love G-d and Love your neighbors.... So in closing ,be willing to admit you dont know what something is about. Its ok if you dont get the deeper meaning of Torah written or oral. It doesnt make a man dumb or inferior. However when we can admit we dont know and we ask the right questions. The answers will flow into us, when we can be humble and say G-d I dont understand.. THEN YOU CAN RECIEVE.  Millennium Envoy: Bringing up the traditions of catholics is irrelevant because it isn't really christianity. It's origin is pagan and so are its teachings. In Jeremiah, it's clear that they are worshipping a pagan idol and calling her "Mary." Biblical doctrine doesn't teach that the church turned into israel. that is known as "replacement theology", and its rejected in scripture. The actual nation of Israel will be restored in the future (but not by these sinister world affairs) Water baptism is also not necessary for salvation. it's faith alone. now, many people will read from the new bible versions which were spewed out by the vatican and they are missing verses and even change what they say completely at times. Those versions wrongly imply a necessary water baptism to be saved. They assume that "baptize" means water at all times and fail to realize that there is baptism in spirit upon believing the gospel. Not only that, but they ignore the woman who got saved by faith alone in Luke 7, as well as the thief on the cross. Now I understand that some professing christians are hypocrites and judge people based on their actions in the flesh. I've never seen one call somebody an animal but i would rebuke them if i did. They seem to forget that Paul preached to a sinful group and called them brethren because they believed the gospel (which alone saves people). Many verses are not understood by these hell raising people. they'll often misuse the verse that states how one who is born of God will not commit sin. They'll often use this verse on a person who is habitually struggling (aka someone they think they are better than) and say they cant be saved. But it says one who is born of God does not commit sin, so that is not referring to our flesh but the born again spirit that can never be imputed sin by the believer's actions. The flesh will not inherit the kingdom. It's sad to see many so called churches get this wrong. Christianity does not encourage the overriding of laws, but rather the satisfaction. It confuses a lot of people why Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulteress for example. they just see it as an act of forgiveness, but it's also because he came "not to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law." The whole reason why the law was given to israel was to keep it holy (meaning "separate" )and to deliver Christ through it to the world. the law never saved anyone. Galatians 3 goes over that. and even abraham was justified before God by faith which counted as righteousness. So you are correct about God never changing. The law was not tossed aside, but was rather fulfilled. We are not saved by our living for God, we are saved by Christ's dying for us. I don't want to give an "i gotcha" impression. you wrote a response in paragraphs so you must have some conviction to spread what you believe is true. I respect that. I hope i clarified some things about what true christianity is. God bless (Edited by Millennium Envoy)  Apokalupto: @amoregrowers Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Matthew15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? You said it, Jesus was a devout follower of the law, but the same cannot be said of the Oral Torah. “First off lets dig into the Christian scriptures to see more clearly our lack of understanding in these matters and study regarding the oral Law” You obviously didn’t look into the Christian scriptures, I am pretty sure I found the website where you copied and pasted some of your material from, I know because it was in the same chronological order as your post, not that that truly matters to me, but the point is you haven’t considered the Christian scriptures while at the same time saying that you are digging into them to see more clearly. You may reply “And you haven’t considered the Talmud or Oral Torah” If you’re talking to me, then I go by DontNeedChrists own words and interpretation which I have thoroughly made known. I’m not here to explain the Talmud, so you’ll have to save that. “BTW it was the following of the oral law which made him hated by the self righteous.” John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. He was hated because the Jews thought He broke the Sabbath, and because He made Himself equal with God by working or healing. Jesus never once mentions His authority came from the Oral Torah, in fact He says that it is from the Father, and that the Son of God is Lord of the Sabbath. Matthew 12:8 That is the reason, and of course He made Himself equal to God in other passages such as the one above John 5:18 It never once had anything to do with the Oral Torah. “First Jesus was a devout follower of the Law and told his followers to obey what the Rabbis said Matt 23: 1-3 This means Jesus wanted people to follow Halakha Law which is the collective body of written and oral” Absolutely not. This passage in the Gospel is actually the famous time in Jesus ministry when He publically denounced the Scribes and Pharisees. Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Do not after their works because they are hypocrites. “Jesus was a righteous person or a Tzaddik. Which was someone whos Torah observances went beyond the letter of the Law. It means Jesus would have worn The Tallit and Tzitzit. Which if you know the oral you could make sense of the unclean bleeding woman touching the fringe or corner of his garment.” Lets find out. Here is the same chapter you are using for proof that Jesus condoned all this) Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and ***enlarge the borders of their garments, *** Jesus says no. Paul who was a former Pharisee says its all dung. You’ll see later. Jesus denounces the very title of Rabbi, because Jesus is the only master. Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Jesus continues to condone the teachers of His day by praising them. Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! “When Jesus was ask what the most important commandment was he quoted the beginning of the most important prayer in Judaism The ' Shema' . Which was put in the Teffilin box and its recited twice a day by observant Jews.” Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Jesus was directly quoting Moses. No Shema prayer. Besides prayers to God aren’t the same thing as oral law commentary. “Many of Jesus blessings and prayers were from the oral. The lords prayer is a shortened version of the Amidah. See the 3rd 5th 6th 9th 15th 18th benediction of the Amidah” I don’t see it. You will have to make your case here. “He recited the halachic blessings over matzah and wine when he gave thanks at meals (Luke 22:19-20). “ So Jesus condoned the Oral Law because He blessed with wine and compared it to His life saving blood that was shed in their stead? They should read the NT to get the full picture. : ) Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Jesus Healed on the sabbathTosefta Shabbat 15b'Sukkah 49b, ' told a man to carry his mat on sabbath ,Sudy the Rabbi laws on eruv. It is well known that G-ds laws can be laid aside to help someone in need. This is Oral tradition. There is a lot wrong with this one, but you’re just copying and pasting from websites, I understand. John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. John 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. John 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus did not say “Because Talmud authorized Me” but because He is the Son of God, and God works on the Sabbath. The Jews understood that He made Himself equal with God, they hated that. “I could go on and on showing how Jesus quoted many midrash sayings. And just about every instance where Jesus is accused of disobeying the commands of G-d he is actually following the oral law.” So far you have not demonstrated that, quite the contrary. “Also common sayings by Christianity: You are blind You are carnal You live by the flesh” “You call yourself the church the true Israel and anyone who does not believe like you lacks spiritual understanding and is only led by the carnal flesh 'animal instinct ' so Christians have no problem calling non believers animals.” This is wrong. Equating being lead or living in the flesh as “animal instincts” is not a Christian teaching. Actually the “animal instincts” is part of the occult texts found in Qabala and Talmud, and not Christianity. Secondly, accusing Christians of this is not the same as your making that claim, since the scripture is the authority and not man, remember? You’re obviously trying to pick a fight, but you’re losing because truth wins every time. “The major debate of acts wasnt how to create a new religion. The debate was how to bring this new mass of gentile believers into Judaism and what would be required. Circumcision sabbath dietary guidelines etc. The apostles saught out the Jewish council for direction.” Everything in this last paragraph is wrong except that the Jesus didn’t bring a new religion, He fulfilled the Torah. The NT condemns those who try to “Judaize” Also Paul had this to say about his former Judaic life. Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: It is all counted as dung, and nothing matters but Christ because there is but one who is called Rabbi, and one who is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8 & 23:10 “You see it was determined by the apostles after Jesus left to figure out what to do.” Through the Holy Spirit that is correct. Now let’s get back on topic. DNC is has painted himself into a corner and the only card he has left to play? “Whats it mean whats it mean!” All here know that were using his own words as the explanation, both me and butler referred to his interpretation verbatim as the pivotal point of discussion, it’s all games to him, and as Gir pointed out, it is a waste of time. I also see that you are following suit seeing that you started off with the appearance of wanting to get a better understanding the New Testament in order to shed light on all of this, but what happened was you ended up googling some quick "Gotcha" points which have not proved to hold up to the truth of scripture, showing that you had no intention to actually understand. On the other hand, I am not here telling anyone what the Oral Torah means, im not providing interpretations right now either, DNC has already provided it. Butler wanted to discuss Jewish views and he expressly used DNC words verbatim, as did I to demonstrate as a point of reference why the Talmud is not of God but of men. (Edited by Apokalupto) Apokalupto: Mattthew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Mattthew15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, Mattthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Mattthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. amoregrowers: Yes all very true. Mans traditions weather Christianity or Judaism which can all be backed up by scripture are not what G-d was looking for in Judaism or Christianity. It was always about the heart. Bava Metzia was about how to treat each other in day to day life. It in my opinion was not literal and has a metaphorical meaning. We all including Judaism and Christianity have made Traditions of Men more important then Seeking G-d on a personal leval. To "look" holy. Bava Metzia is in accordance to G-d giving His authority to the Rabbis to interpret the Law. Just as christianity gives the clergy the authority to inturprit the scriptures and look over the congregation. Even if the inturpritations disagree with one another. Submersion or sprinkle Predestination or freewill Kjv or Niv Calvin or Arminian Chatholic or protestant Woman preachers or silence Women And on and on All these Authorities "clergymen " have their proof text why there traditions are in accordance with G-d and his ways. So one is Obedient to the scripture and one is Overruling G-d , but hes ok with either because he lets man make the decisions based his heart and the needs of the time. Example. Jesus was submerged with his baptism but what if there is no pool around to baptize someone or they are cripple and can not make journey to water or have a nasty infection and need to stay out of water. Then a sprinkle would suffice. Or an ex alcoholic does not need alcohol wine so grape juice is used for communion which is fine.. see the point.. BTW not all Pharisees were bad. That is like G-d rebuking Todd Bentley or Jim Jones for their lies so we make an assumption All christian leaders are corrupted and there is no truth in christianity. But my point is Jesus Celebrated and went to Temple in winter to Feast of Dedication.. Feast of dedication came after Torah.. It is Oral Tradition. Christian celebrations of Christmas and Easter. Not commanded by G-d but practical according to christians. So IMO Torah which is understood on 4 levels Pardes. As Instruction or the code of creation and the universe. And the Oral Torah the practical application of written Torah in day to day Instruction/Application and the Authority to make changes as necessary which is what the reformation was and which is what happened to Judaism after Temple was destroyed.. we do what we have to do.... DontNeedChrist: Anonymous_Attributes: "DNC is has painted himself into a corner and the only card he has left to play? “Whats it mean whats it mean!” ----------- Until it's established that the parties involved in this discussion have the very BASIC, FOUNDATIONAL KNOWLEDGE of the topic's meaning, there is nothing to discuss. Neither you, butttler or anyone else besides GIR and amore have explained what Bava Metzia 59b is about. YOU, AA do not know what this tractate is about else you would have explained. You and butttler are only fixated on ONE interpretation I shared that you don't happen to agree with and that my friend is what you've used to paint yourself into a corner. The title of this thread is "Bava Metzia 59b and rabbinic sages." Not "What's DNC's interpretation of Bava Metzia 59b?" I still await the answer to the question, what is Bava Metzia 59b about? The SIXTH time it's been asked. It's fine to admit you don't know. God is real: DNC according to orthodox judaism tha pharaoh survived the flood to become ruler of Ninevah and then jonah rebuked him ? Is that even true ? Apokalupto: Anyway, back to the topic, im still waiting for DNC to address the topic of the thread instead of trying to slight his way out of talking about it by doing nothing more than demand our own interpretation when he already gave it, which interpretation is the point of the thread, but butler says its not ill be surprised, its certainly why I am here because I want to discuss how man cannot and does not have authority to overrule God and it is very displeasing to Him, and there are consequences. Can man overrule God, is it Gods desire that the rabbis decide all interpretation even against His own will? Christians say no, God and the scriptures are the highest authority. Why do Jews choose to believe in man over God? You can answer this if you want. amoregrowers: This reminds me of the story of when Jacob wrestled G-d . G-D finally had enough and dislocated his hip and said let me go.. Jacob says nope not until you bless me... so G-d blessed Jacob... soooo can man overrule G-d? and is he pleased by those who will risk it all to please him??? Yes according to scripture. This behavior which is the heart is what moves G-d... God is real: its not the same thing.In the oven story the correct rabbi was overthrown which wasnt the right thing and it appears that god there supported this decision.Makes no sense.Then Even though god supported the decision he then punish the rest of the rabbies by destroying crops but then changes his mind again? Its contradictory behavior from begining to the end of the story DontNeedChrist: AA: "im still waiting for DNC to address the topic of the thread instead of trying to slight his way out of talking about it by doing nothing more than demand our own interpretation when he already gave it" -------- Topic of the thread: Bava Metzia 59b and rabbinic sages I'm not demanding yours or anyone's interpretation of the tractate. Simply asking if anyone here knows what it's about. How can YOU have an interpretation of something YOU'VE NEVER READ?????? God is real: theres also other stories like this one where stuff are borderline drama show and they make NO SENSE AT ALL.Theres even times where God reads the scripture to educate himself and he reads what the other rabbi instructed ....its just over the top.Theres a story where MOSES could not recognize his own 10 LAWS Apokalupto: DNC, I don't have an interpretation of this tractate I merely saw what you personally said about it and wanted to chime in as to why. | Religion Chat Room 12 People Chatting Similar Conversations |