What happens to people that have never heard of Jesus? (Page 3)

shadowline: I think you're just being ingenuous, ghostgeek. The first post was not intended to answer your question, which you had not asked at that point. It was an answer to the question posed by the thread here.

The second post was to clarify the first one, and is on the same point [i.e. "what happens to people who have never heard of Jesus"] and not in answer to your question.

The third post is an answer to your question. If God has a point, I think that's it. And I think most people would see that without too much difficulty. I don't consider the "point" of God a reason to believe in his existence myself, but, what I said explains the point, I think, reasonably well. Haven't you got anything more to say about that than "this isn't an answer"? Why isn't it an answer?

That said, I really have got to congratulate you on having responded at long last to what I said. I presume doing that was painless. I'd be happy to hear more.

ghostgeek: Shadowline, nice of you to narrow things down. So your understanding of the point of God is somehow contained in the following:

"Well, if there is a God, then you are a Divine creation, and you may be an immortal one whose every action has eternal consequences. You (may have been) instructed by the Creator of all and everything as to what your life is about and how you should live it.

If there is no God then we are all accidental concatenations of corpuscles in a world totally without meaning or purpose who were basically born so we could rot forever once a blind and amoral Nature is done with us."

Er ... sorry, still don't get it. Why are you concerning yourself with human beings when my question had to do with with the point, or otherwise, of God?

shadowline: Because there can only be a point to God from the human point of view. Outside of the human point of view, there is surely no need for a point at all. Nor could human beings know what that point was, if there was one. Man, is this ever using the word "point" too much.

From the human perspective, as I tried to say, everything about yourself is different if there is a God. That seemed to me to be the point. From what perspective, or on what basis, did you want God to have a point? Or to have the case made that there is none?

ghostgeek: I was wondering if there was any purpose behind God's existence, apart from what humans might impute to it.

ghostgeek: Or is it like a rock that's always existed? Of no use until someone comes along and finds a purpose for it.

shadowline: I suppose if the concept of God in question does not include that everything exists because he created it, and if we leave out of consideration that everything about human life is different if there is a God, then there isn't any point to his being there. But very few people's idea of God would exclude those things.

ghostgeek: It's always interesting to see people referring to God as "He", as if It was a Pagan god. I agree, though, that most people think God created everything. This puts the created realm in the driving seat and relegates God to the position of "back seat" passanger. Without us God is nothing. Without an audience, God might as well not existence. It thus becomes clear why, for all its manifest failings, humanity has never been expunged from planet earth. God needs us in a way that we don't need It. This, of course, assumes that God does in fact exist, which to my mind seems doubtful.

Angry Beaver: "shadowline: I think you're just being ingenuous, ghostgeek."

Ingenuous........or ingenious? lol

ghostgeek: Innocent and unsuspecting? That sounds like me.

shadowline: The two words kind of look related, don't they? There's a semantic insight for you.

ghostgeek: Simple Anglo Saxon is so much less complicated.

Billie Ingle: They are normal people because what never was can't harm you Satanism is proven that always exists but the bible is rewritten 100x so what is even still true in it Old testament they rewrote it over and over and then finally made a new one now those days people don't know the true verses like Lilith and Adam but because Lilith refused to be submissive to Adam she ran away, God heard of it and sent guards to bring Lilith back. At a night God his guards found Lilith and she refused to go back, she made a promise let her go and she will grant big fertility, they let her go but on 1 condition Lilith was cursed to kill babies which gave her a bad reputation and she became queen of the night and Goddess of fertility and death but in the bible it is Adam and Eve, Eve is just made of a rib when Lilith got banned so Eve was Adams wife and because Lilith is seen as a demon they left her out of the bible. The whole bible thing is a twisted and lied story

shadowline: And whence do we know about this Lilith, since the all-too-often-rewritten-Bible never mentions her? Something-to-be-depended-on-without-question does mention her, I take it?

ghostgeek: Lilith comes from where all such creatures come, the imagination.

Zanjan: Ghost wrote: "This puts the created realm in the driving seat and relegates God to the position of "back seat" passanger."

Your thinking has it that the created realm is intelligent enough to drive itself, re-create itself, and be responsible for its passengers. What would you call that intelligence? If its responsible for you, wouldn't you say to it, "take this crap out of my yard, eh"?" Would the intelligence talk back to you and say "Are your arms broken, am I your slave"?

God is pre-existent, Holy and sanctified above egress and regress, doesn't ascend or descend: He is Sovereign over all existence, and the Source of all knowledge. His essence is beyond the ken of men's comprehension.

Who are we to talk about God, except for how He expresses His Will through nature? God has repeatedly told us why He made creation. Nothing we say will convince you either.

ghostgeek: What would this God of yours do if nothing existed? Would it feel lonely?

Zanjan: That doesn't appear to be a reasonable hypothesis, given the status of "God".

How could one be a King without subjects or, a General without foot soldiers? Power of command is intrinsic to a living being; as such, so is creation. There can't be one without the other. A single thought IS creation. Therefore, if nothing existed, neither would God.

However lonely a human might feel at the top, God isn't bothered that He has no equal and no partners. He's the whole, unified package, loving Himself and needing no one. Yet that's the thing; God also loved the idea of sharing - that is, He desired to be known.

Love is not love unless it pours forth. Thus, He made living creatures who could recognize, receive, and appreciate His beauty. To some He gave free will; to others, He didn't - that's how He guaranteed some would always adore Him, completing the circle of love throughout eternity.

Cenababy: Zan well, nicely put..last paragraph

ghostgeek: So, is it the ones with free will that adore Him, or the ones without it?

God is real: My understanding is that IT DOES MATTER what you know and how you used the knowledge.Bible says that teachers are held hire level of judgement meaning that it does matter what you know.I absolutely believe that somebody who has never heard the gospel can be saved but there is some basis even on him to be judged on.Only babies and children beyond the age of accountability make it instantly into heaven.Thats MY understanding from studying the bible

ghostgeek: Where does it say in the New Testament that the young will make it instantly into heaven?

God is real: depend on how young you are talking about.In the old testament king david lost his baby son to illness and then he did say that he will see him in heaven meaning that children (babies younger than the age of accountability) instantly go to heaven.Jesus also said heaven is for children and that one must be like one to go there.Those kind of verses helps dealing with this.Theres also NDE reports where people saw their children in heaven

Zanjan: Ghost: "So, is it the ones with free will that adore Him, or the ones without it? "

All living creatures, except for man, are subject to their nature and can't do anything about it.....they don't have any intellectual capacity so are restricted to their instincts. But man can rise above nature because he has a soul; Free Will is a property of the soul.

Free Will is the power to choose whether or not to love God more than yourself. The independent Prophets of God - that is, His Revelators - are Manifestations of God. As such, They have no ego so the choice to turn away isn't there. God has made Them differently than the rest of us.

Zanjan: Jesus did NOT say heaven was for children. That's not the reason heaven was created.

God has said that every soul ( that means, regardless of age) is immortal - physical death has no effect on it. Without the physical body, the soul dwells in the hereafter........where, depends on God's decision. A baby or child will continue to develop and grow in the hereafter.

Factually, babies are not accountable but children are to increasing degrees until they reach puberty, where they take on 100% accountability.

What Jesus said is that children are closer to the Kingdom of God than adults. He was speaking of the here and now, on earth.

What makes this true is that children aren't as experienced or worldly as adults; they have open minds, love to learn, and are malleable. How many children do you know that have become corrupted, jaded or dysfunctional?

As for entering heaven, Jesus wasn't saying you gotta act like a child (children are immature). He was referring to innocence - that is, the attitude of reliance and trust in God.

God is real: Makes no difference to my point Zanjan. Children below the age of accountability are saved by default..At least that seems extremely likely idea