Heaven - why do you want it and when?

Zanjan: We all think heaven is paradise. Few agree on what this entails but everybody wants it. You believe paradise is a place of comfort, rest, happiness, and joy - no tears or pain of any kind. Yet how odd that you’d want something you don’t know anything else about!

As with life, so in death - do you think you’ll meet with surprise? Do you believe there's only one paradise or many?

Some will tell you paradise is doing what you love best. Well, what if sleeping or skiing down a mountain is what you love best? What if plucking on a harp sounded best in an empty theatre? What if you love to praise God then discover God doesn’t need your praise? What if the 72 virgins turned out to be the same gender as you or, brands of olive oil?

Thoughts?

Zanjan: A developmentally delayed client and I had been working together for about 7 years when she told me about a dream she had the previous night. Until then, I didn‘t know she dreamed. She said:

“A man took me up in a spaceship to a place that had walls all around it. The place was called Heaven. The ship set down, we got out and started walking along the base of the walls. I wanted to go inside but the man said I couldn’t, there were guards at the top and we weren’t really supposed to be here.
Then He held his finger to his mouth and whispered, ‘shush, I know a way we can peek’. He led me to a gate, which had a little peephole in it. ‘Come, look inside’, he said. Just as I did that, I woke up.”

I marveled, asking who the man was. She couldn’t identify him so I asked her what she saw through the peephole. Well, she didn’t get a chance to see because that was when the dream ended. I responded that it must be an important dream because she told me so I’d think on that for awhile.

I didn’t tell her about two dreams I’d had decades before that. I’d seen inside those walls, wherein lies a city. In the second dream, the gates were open and I entered by horse and cart with a hooded (unidentified) driver.

No matter who you are, it seems to me that heaven isn’t going to mean much of anything to you unless you’ve already had a peek.

JacquesTrappe: well, I generally don't bother reading the twaddle that spills out of your mouth, but after my eyes glazed over your post and I saw you mention 72 virgins ( Which isn't in the Quran ) I remained convinced you're a numpty and feel any serious attempt at discussion would be wasted

hope that answers your question

Zanjan: That's totally off-topic and doesn't answer any question. FYI, the 72 virgins is in the Hadith, which is not a holy book.

Do come back when you have something applicable to contribute.

chronology: Well Zan, interesting thoughts from you as usual. I have always thought of God as unknowable. He is vastly beyond our understanding. But my own humble studies of ancient history and the Occult has led me to the conclusion that we of this era are at the end of period of creation that began at the end of a cataclysmic war amongst the Angeles and God. Events then described in Eden began. At the moment we are the last era on this planet. But everything I have come to believe is that God will return to clean up this mess once and for all. There will be wars and destruction that even Hollywood could never imagine.

If people have accepted Jesus Christ as King they will be spared the final fate of eternal confinement to hell.

As for heaven, who knows Zan. I used to think it would be a gift to be given your own planet. But astronomers now say there are enough galaxies to go round so each person could have their own galaxy. An even more surprising discovery is that there could even be multiple Universes out there beyond this universe. So each person could even have their own Universe.

So my own humble view is every person can have their own Galaxy. There is enough to go around. If the astronomers have got the data correct, each person may even have their own Universe. Even with eternity, you would never finish exploring your own Universe.

Zanjan: Fascinating how you opened with the age you believe you live in.

Personally, I think that’s already in the past since nothing in recorded history compares to the collective wars and bloodshed of the 20th century.

Hollywood has a hard time reproducing those panoramic scenes, I suppose, because it can’t incorporate the magnitude of gore, thunder, and screaming. News crews won’t show it in real life, just bombing from a distance. Suffice to say, war is hell no matter how big or small it is.

I haven’t found any statement in the New Testament saying Non-Christians will suffer in hell forever. However, it’s very specific – that is, there’s the assurance that those who don’t believe in God (atheists) are clearly in a lot of trouble, especially if they continue to reject God to their dying breath.

On ruling a planet – correct me if I’m wrong but it seems to me that’s a Mormon belief. Who’s to say one won’t get one of the gas giants or a planet like mercury? If there’s life on the planet, I really think that would be too much responsibility for one person, given how poor we all are at multi-tasking.

I wouldn’t wish a burden on others that I, myself, couldn’t bear.

You realize scripture says that God is the Creator and Ruler of the Universe, right? If scripture is correct, He can explode as many suns and dissolve as many galaxies as He desires. One false step on your part and, Poof! There’s goes your estate. Ergo, you wouldn’t be a godlet, you’d still be a servant but with a bigger portfolio. Do you feel prepared for that right now?

JacquesTrappe: lmao, oh....ok, let me destroy your silly claims then

you claim heaven is a place ?

εν ουρανος ( In heaven )
εν δικαιοσυνη ( In righteousness )


I suppose you claim " righteousness " is a place too ?

Too bad you don't know New Testament Greek, or you'd be a little more familiar with the proper " in " that would precede ουρανος ( heaven ) to indicate it was actually a place

which it doesn't

εις Ιεροσολυμα ( in jerusalem ) see ?.....................lol, entirely different word than εν ..., in fact, if heaven were a place, it would be written - εις ουρανος ( In heaven ) and not εν ουρανος ( in heaven )

That was easy, what other BS claims you have ?

chronology: As ever, interesting Zan. Depressing to get onto the subject of hell so quickly. If you listen to Jesus Christ then you know He mentions hell often. He described it as a awful place. He was was insistent hell is real. As for the 20th century being the last chapter in major catastrophe on earth, the Book of Revelation would beg to differ with you. They are future events. The most terrible Judgment is one few people even notice. Your fellow Canadian Sarah Poley gave a good take on what it will look like in the Movie Dawn of the Dead. That movie dealt with zombie's, but Revelation talk's of the release of the demon's held in the bottomless pit. It will lead to mass open possession of people world wide. Washington DC, Berlin, Paris, London, the entire world will see a total break down of Society into anarchy like never seen before. Even the Police, the FBI, the DEA, everyone will be turned into raving maniacs. It will look like every human is on the Drug Bath Salt's. Curious how Mr Johnny Cash sang the opening song in that movie. The song Mr Cash sang 'When the Man goes Around' referse to Revelation.

For most people all this is just fantasy. But Ms Poley and fellow Thespians have given a glimpse of what it will look like.

JacquesTrappe: yeah

of course OP is also who denied this to be true

https://secretsoftheages.freeforums.net/thread/300/little-horn-number-beast


You deny the written word, you don't like to see what the Bible actually says

Zanjan: Jacque, who were you addressing? Nobody is making claims here - the discussion is about what people really think of heaven and when they can get a taste of it.

I wrote about one woman who believed heaven was a place. I said nothing about it being a physical place. One can see all sorts of things in a dream - doesn't mean those things have material substance. For that reason, every civilization uses symbology, even on traffic signs.

Righteousness is a condition of conscience. If one acts in a righteous manner, the motivations of their heart are pure. We call that altruism.

So far, you don't believe heaven is a place; you haven't said what you think it is and your role in that.

Zanjan: Chron, the Book of Revelation addresses events that were in the future from the day it was written. That's a lot of time. Let's talk about the past 2,000 years, not OUR future as of this writing.

Many believe NONE of those things in that book have come to pass - this isn't helpful to atheists or people of faith. You see, if nothing had occurred, we can all determine that the guy who wrote it was a faker. Surely, if he were any good at prophecy, at least a few things would have occurred in his own lifetime, as it has been for every true prophet. One should be able to spot those as proof.

Even Nostradamus offered a sampling of proof up first.

You can't trust something that's failed. However, if someone more knowledgeable, especially about history, can point out this event is true because it has come to pass, then let him step forward and speak. Who would want to hold him back?

Zanjan: I don't want to see this topic go off on a tangent - prophecy deserves its own topic. Most would agree that scriptures refer to heaven as the "Kingdom of God". Consequently, anything outside of that is not.

chronology: Sorry Zan, but I will have to disagree with you on that. Revelation has yet to happen. Despite most educated folks thinking revelation is a opium poppy juice dream. I never met anyone who takes the Book seriously, or Jesus Christ. They think it is all just opium dreams.

One of the biggest problems talking about the afterlife is the sheer number of people who are going to be standing around over the death's doorway. One estimate is that around 90 Billion people are dead already from the creation of Adam, and that number grows by hundreds of millions every year. 'How the hell can 90 Billion people be judged by God and get a fair trial' is the sceptical response to revelation. And how can all those people be fed? They ask. I have heard of the feeding of the 5000 fairytale, but who would believe the feeding of the 90 Billion fairytale they add.

Zanjan: "They think it is all just opium dreams."

Surely, it looks and reads like that! However, the religious know it's all about the symbology, and some of it is traditional. Certainly, it would be very difficult for someone of his time to describe any modern objects/ activities of today; nevertheless, I've found a few things he did fairly well on.

Of course, some will disagree but at least if we share it, they could think on that and say, 'maybe'; but, tossing the baby out with the bathwater looks more like blindness than carelessness.

Fortunately, we don't all die at the same time; it's really a marvel how God can keep up with greeting as many people that do die on the same day around the planet.

In 2017, stats said 150,000 people died each day just from natural causes alone! (Not murders or accidents) That's been bumped up to new levels since Covid 19 pandemic; just add 53,000 from China and India and it's far from over.

I can only think the angels are busier than they've ever been in history, whether witnessing final judgments or feeding spiritual food to the hungry. Heaven has got to be an intensely busy realm - I doubt the lazy would like it; so, if God assigned them to be there, wouldn't they be utterly miserable?

chronology: Well Zan, we must disagree. I see the event's of revelation as real, as real as the Desert Storm rescue of Kuwait by the USA. Or as real as the San Francisco Earthquake back in 1903. The reason some see revelation as symbolic is they are not keeping up with science and technology. There will stand a giant Android in Iraq, probably running on AI. And that will be the Great Statue mentioned in Revelation. Any time soon all money will be withdrawn, and people will pay for their goods just like Revelation says.

I know you see heaven as a big day on the beach with everyone rolling in a day there. I expect Heaven to be a exclusive kind of place. If you are not permitted, you are not going to get in. You can fly to Washington DC and visit all the historical places there. But I assure you that there are a lot of blocks you will never set foot in. Unless you have permission you will not even see inside those neighborhoods. Heaven will be the same.

JacquesTrappe:

" we all think "

You even open your thread with a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum

Try studying the NT scriptures before you tell people to come back with " something applicable to contribute ", you arrogant fool

http://www.csntm.org/

Zanjan: "a giant Android in Iraq ..... people will pay for their goods just like Revelation says."

Well, some countries were late to get ATMs installed. Personally, I pay for everything by credit card to get the rewards points. I only carry around change to wash my car.

The bummer is when the grid goes down - then you can't buy anything even if you do have cash. It's like people have forgotten how to do pencil transactions too - can't even book a hotel room with the Internet down. It's nasty when the power goes out in winter here. Just imagine what will happen with a CME!

If the fantastical beasts in that book showed up in real life, people would run away screaming in terror, and the military would send fighter jets to destroy the extraterrestrials.

As you mentioned earlier, if all the souls since Adam and Eve had to wait for the final judgment, they'd have to be held in the deep, frozen cold of suspended animation the whole time. I don't buy that.

However, I just heard in the news that two children were born 27 years after they were conceived. They'd been extra frozen embryos kept in storage all that time and were implanted in an adoptive parent. For now, they seem healthy enough but I wonder what that did to their souls.

Zanjan: No, I was never one to lay around on the beach - boring - so, for me, heaven wouldn't be sitting on a comfy cloud, relaxing to the sound of harps, playing Kenny G. Like you, I think heaven is set apart from the average joe. Nothing worth its salt comes free or easy.

I think it takes disaster/oppression/deprivation and serious suffering to appreciate heaven. My aim is to taste a bit of heave every day.

Zanjan: Jacques, you're free to think whatever you want but not to speak however you please.

If you hurl another personal insult in this topic, your post will be deleted and you'll be sent to your room until further notice.

chronology: May I suggest you read about the latest genetics and robotics Zan.

Zanjan: My knowledge of genetics amounts to as much as is usable for common folks but robots haven't advanced far enough to hold my interest. If they could do what I can but better, that would be different - right now, we both have trouble climbing stairs.

Zanjan: Knowledge comes by degrees - who's going to be doing the measuring and who decides what the appropriate percentage of anything is to mark a time period? The NT uses seasons so we should be able to recognize the times by the signs. However, we don't all live in Israel.

We use technology to place ourselves in time so we name the Age only in hindsight. There are three fields of classification for this naming - scientific, socio-economic, and spiritual; these are normally on different scales. Yet on rare occasions, a nexus in time appears, hitting humanity like a giant wave. For example:

"Scientists have just assigned three new ages to the Holocene, which is the current epoch in which we live. They're calling this most recent age the Meghalayan, which began 4,200 years ago during a worldwide megadrought. The Holocene commenced 11,700 years ago after the end of the last ice age." (D. Connors in EarthSky)

The Holocene aligns with a monumental spiritual disaster in the time of Noah. The overall picture is that a new race of man emerged from a tortured, godless world. Meanwhile, records show the rise of a new kind of civilization - man moved from a hunter-gatherer society to an agrarian society and never looked back. This aligns with the socio-economic field, graced by permanent mega structures. The Megalayan takes us to the epochs of Abraham and Moses.

To summarize, while the forces of destruction and construction are ongoing, occasionally, there's a mega event that presents like two walls, closing in on the unprepared. You'll be ok if you see it coming and are ready to manage it. That's all you get from ancient scriptures.

Today, we know way more than ancient texts could convey and every disaster since has been greater than any the ancients experienced; but, like them, there have been many who couldn't deal with it. They got no relief, no satisfaction, no refuge.

So, I maintain that unless one has tasted a wee bit of heaven, they won't have the incentive or means to carry on in one piece. Their boat will turn upside down.

chronology: Zan, Robot's are progressing just fine, but it is taking society a long time to build road's and building to accommodate Robot's.

It is only in the last 40 years or so that England stopped using the old Roman measurement for road sizes. All regular road's in England were as wide as two Roman horse drawn carts. This was a measure used from 1800 year's ago. With the introduction of motorways and dual carriageways road sizes slowly changed.

Eventually, buildings and road's will be built with the need for robot access.

Zanjan: I suppose England has dragged its feet because it doesn't have a lot of land to work with; upgrading the road system encroaches on agricultural soil and heritage buildings. Better to take to the skies.

I don't like self-driving cars (except for the parallel park feature) but I can see how they'd be a boon to those who can't drive, as long as it was cheaper than a taxi. The thing is, whenever there's some new innovation, it isn't long before we either take it for granted or find fault in it.

Since every paradise has its bug, I think we should be working more on gratitude. Today we have certain things but tomorrow, they'll belong to somebody else. I rather like our First Nations cultural practice of the Potlach, which reminds us that all material things are from the earth and are on loan.