the coming and great day of the Lord (Page 4) Apokalupto: if anyone else wants to talk about John the Baptist and his relation to both Elijah and the Messiah feel free to comment, just don't stick your head in the sand and reject 99% of the tanakh in your interpretation because then we have nothing to talk about.   DontNeedChrist: At the risk of my post being censored, I will reiterate my point which is the Jewish POV of Hebrew scripture: Malachi 3:23 says that Eliyahu/Elijah himself will appear -- not some "forerunner" or "spirit." Another nail in the coffin of John the Baptist being some sort of pseudo-Elijah is found in the very next verse in Malachi, which ends the chapter and the book: "that he may turn the heart of the fathers back through the children, and the heart of the children back through their fathers-lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction." Malachi 3:24. After John the Baptist and jesus, did the hearts of the fathers turn to their children, and the children to the fathers? Nope. Prove otherwise. Saying just because it wasn't documented is putting one's head in the sand, a phrase the OP has grown fond of. What exactly does it mean that fathers and children will turn to each other? Elijah will start the peace process by rectifying Israel's behavior, causing them to repent and return to G-d. It did not happen, ergo Eliyahu/Elijah has yet to make an appearance. Prophecy is also very straightforward and based on the plain meaning -- the Hebrew term is P'shat (פְּשָׁט). Malachi does not prophesy anything about jesus -- the prophet wrote about the Jews keeping the mitzvot of the Torah (not turning to christianity or any other religion) -- and the day will come when G-d will send the people Elijah the prophet prior to the day of judgment. The Levites (Jewish priestly tribe) will be purified and sacrifices will resume in the Temple (which will be rebuilt) rendering the claim that jesus was the final sacrifice a fabrication. Elijah will turn the hearts of parents and children to one another, causing both to turn to G-d. If they won’t return to G-d, then He will strike the world with great destruction. But Malachi ends on a positive note -- with the people returning to G-d. This is as clear as it can be shown regarding the subject matter of this topic and it will be my last post here. The author of this thread has no intention of engaging in any sort of healthy interaction. It's just one upmanship and personal insults towards me, Jews and Judaism in general. The claim that I only understand 1% of my scriptures is unfounded, absurd and has absolutely no credibility. AA (aka XP), if you're afraid of the Jewish POV of Jewish texts then you will delete my post. Feel free. Not my circus, not my monkeys. Apokalupto: "I will reiterate my point which is the Jewish POV of Hebrew scripture:" I have two very big very important questions for your Jewish point of view. number one. why have you still not actually addressed the original post and the answers given? why are you sidestepping? number two. why are you not incorporating the whole tanakh in your interpretation and still only accepting a handful of scriptures? here is my original post which you totally ignored. Malachi says that the Lord will send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord. "Malachi 3:23 says that Eliyahu/Elijah himself will appear -- not some "forerunner" or "spirit."" The angel in the Gospel of Luke says that John the Baptist will be sent in the spirit and power of Elijah, but John says that he is not actually Elijah. and that's because he's not. the scripture makes clear that John is not Elijah but only in the spirit power of elijah. so Elijah himself is still yet to appear at some later point particularly as the scripture says before the great and terrible day of the Lord. so you are pretending and misrepresenting the point in the original post. it does not say that John the Baptist is fulfilling the prophecy in Malachi. That's been told to you quite a few times at the time of jesus' earthly ministry that was not the great and terrible day of the Lord, that is a future event when Jesus returns. on the Mount of transfiguration Jesus showed Peter James and John a vision of himself transfigured and in his kingdom beside both Moses and Elijah. this was a vision, a picture of what is yet to come. Elijah will be there and fulfill the actual prophecy in Malachi. John the Baptist is not trying to fulfill the prophecy in Malachi. The angel in the gospel of Luke said that he would merely come in the power and spirit Elijah. this was foreshadowed not by Malachi!!! but as I stated in the original post it was foreshadowed by Elisha who asked for doubled the spirit of Elijah, then when Elijah left Elisha did get double the spirit. John the Baptist fulfilled this foreshadow when he too came in the power and spirit of Elijah as did Elisha. Elijah left and Elisha carried on in his place. this for shadow was also fulfilled by the transition between John the Baptist ministry and Jesus Christ. once again, this was not a Malachi prophecy. lol this is more proof that you are ignoring the tanakh when you interpret these matters. you only accept a fraction of the tanakh in your interpretation of the Messiah and that is exactly what it means when you take the 1% approach. Zachariah 9:9 Messiah king of Israel had come he's just and having salvation lowly and riding upon an ass and upon a colt the foal of an ass. this was preceded by John the Baptist who came in the spirit and power of Elijah at Jesus first coming. at the great and terrible day of the Lord, as for told in the prophecy of Malachi, Elijah will fulfill his coming preceding Daniel 7:13 when the son of man, Jesus Christ, returns and will come with the clouds of heaven and he will have dominion and Glory set up his everlasting kingdom. "After John the Baptist and jesus, did the hearts of the fathers turn to their children, and the children to the fathers?" what do you mean after, after? after John the Baptist and after Jesus Christ? lol you are twisting the question. The answer was already given to you before but you ignored it and you are ignoring it again. John the Baptist prepared the way of the Lord, which is Jesus Christ. he turned the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers before the beginning of Jesus ministry. and because of that Jesus was very well received in Israel who is God manifest in the flesh. Elijah himself is yet to appear according to the prophecy of Malachi. (Edited by Apokalupto) Apokalupto: I don't delete posts when they're on topic but I will continue to delete any mockery, insults, filibustering and trolling. stop complaining. (Edited by Apokalupto) Apokalupto: there are the facts. feel free to ignore it like you have (like my other threads presenting facts in the tanakh about the Messiah) or you can actually try to address the points that are actually being made. (Post deleted by Apokalupto ) Apokalupto: I said address the points that are actually being made. if you could prove anything you'd be able to use the scriptures to do it, instead it's been nothing but sidestepping and banter. good luck with your 1% tunakh approach. lol DontNeedChrist: Maybe you missed the part when I stated it would be my last post. Now this is the last post. I know when the opponent is ill-equipped. This is a mercy call for you. Enough time wasted. Same song and dance. I have much more constructive things to do. Delete this too. Apokalupto: there's nothing constructive about your constant banter. again if you had evidence from the tanakh then you would present it, instead you totally sidestepped every single point. keep using your 1% approach it's not getting you anywhere. it's precisely as Jesus said it was, if they believed Moses they would believe me for he wrote of me. as does the whole tanakh. these are the facts. (Edited by Apokalupto) (Post deleted by Apokalupto ) (Post deleted by Apokalupto )  God is real: In isaiah the spirit crying in the willderness refers to john the baptist and maybe the qumran community that knew the messiah would arrive soon.Elijah is 1 of the 2 witnesses and the 2 witnesses are send to preach specifically to israelites.The 2 witnesses are the 2 lambs in zechariah 3 or so Apokalupto: the qumran community may have expected the Messiah soon, but there were Orthodox Jews that also did. the qumran community was a cult community that in no way prepared the way of the Lord, they practically exiled themselves and they were a very very very very small group that thought that they were special, and if I'm correct they also did not allow women as part of their community, I can't see this community has preparing the way of the Lord Jesus or leading the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers. God is real: the status of women according to some scroll is diminished yet there are scrolls that deal with how women should behave there...so its not true there shouldnt be women there.Also community that accurately interprets messianic prophecies is far better than any modern judaism tradition Apokalupto: at any rate, it's not necessary to interpret the Qumran community in this way because the scriptures don't speak of them. remember in the gospel of luke, the Angel of the Lord said that John the Baptist would go in the spirit and power of Elijah so that's what it refers to. (Post deleted by Apokalupto )  amoregrowers: I have a question. Reading about the great day in Malachi 4:5 and Joel 2:31. Why do the various translations differ? Great and dreadful day Great and terrible day Great and awesome day I do see judaic translations to english primarily using" great and awesome "denoting a positive excitement. Something to look forward to. Most christian translation versions seem to make it a fearful negative statement? What is your thoughts? | Religion Chat Room 15 People Chatting Similar Conversations |