Origins of The War in Heaven

Dennae
Dennae: What started the war?

Excerpt from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library (CCEL)

The Life of Adam and Eve (Apocalypse of Moses), is a Jewish pseudepigraphical group of writings. It recounts the lives of Adam and Eve from after their expulsion from the Garden of Eden to their death

Sections 14-15 of the Latin version of the "Life of Adam and Eve"
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xii 1 And with a heavy sigh, the devil spake: 'O Adam! all my hostility, envy, and sorrow is for thee, since it is for thee that I have been expelled from my glory, which I possessed in the heavens

2 in the midst of the angels and for thee was I cast out in the earth.' Adam answered, 'What dost

3 thou tell me? What have I done to thee or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us?'

xiii 1 The devil replied, 'Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled

2 from that place. When thou wast formed. I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life and thy face and likeness was made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made (us) worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.'

(Edited by Dennae)
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Dennae
Dennae:
xiv 1 And Michael went out and called all the angels saying:

'Worship the image of God as the Lord God hath commanded.'

And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said: 'Worship the image of God

3 the Lord.' And I answered, 'I have no (need) to worship Adam.' And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him, 'Why dost thou urge me? I will not worship an inferior and younger being (than I). I am his senior in the Creation, before he was made was I already made. It is his duty to worship me.'

xv 1,2 When the angels, who were under me, heard this, they refused to worship him. And Michael saith, 'Worship the image of God, but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wrath

3 with thee.' And I said, 'If He be wrath with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the Highest.'

xvi 1 And God the Lord was wrath with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on

2 thy account were we expelled from our abodes into this world and hurled on the earth. And

3 straightway we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we

4 were grieved when we saw thee in such joy and luxury. And with guile I cheated thy wife and caused thee to be expelled through her (doing) from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "What started the war?"

Writing garbage like that.
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Dennae
Dennae: Garbage? Because?
(Edited by Dennae)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The Creative Word of God is perfect, sanctified above human perspective, and is held SACRED. Anyone who riffs on it is showing disrespect towards God and religion, also absence of knowledge.

We all have fertile imaginations - no need for a commentary on such flights of fancy, especially ridiculous figments, lacking in wisdom and literary finesse. To wit: 'The Last Temptation of Christ', authored by Kazantzakis, and further mutilated by Scorsese's production of cinematic trash.

If one is deliberately offensive, that one will find a deliberate reaction.
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Dennae
Dennae: You're comparing the Pseudepigrapha (Jewish works that provide essential evidence of Jewish literature and thought during the period between the end of biblical writing (ca. 400 BCE) and the beginning of substantial rabbinic literature in the latter part of the first century CE) to movies of this century?

I'm sorry if you find it Jewish literature and thought of this period, offensive.

It certainly wasn't meant to be offensive, just a explanation of the Origin of the War from Jewish Literature from that period.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I've compared disrespect to disrespect. How are those who've set themselves above the scriptures different than others who've usurped the scriptures?

"Just an explanation"?? Who gave the author place to correct the divine? We already know the Jews found God to be silent (no prophets) during those 400 years. Should one invent them? The tongue can be a deadly poison but the pen can be a bomb.

Calling personal pennings by the name of a religion is NOT honest. The ethnic background of the author is inconsequential when addressing scripture. Surely, we cannot imagine all Jews at the time or even much later would have supported this piece.

I understand there were no controls on ethical practice at the time - that doesn't mean we should promote or even mention that which was so blatantly devoid of authenticity. There's plenty enough of that in our own time.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: FYI - that movie belonged to the last century, not this one.
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Dennae
Dennae: You take offence/disrespect where none exists.

Parts of this literature are authentic enough to be found in the Jewish Talmud.

And while it is a Christian extracanonical work it has just recently been included in the family of Old Testament Pseudepigrapha literature which includes the Life of Adam and Eve, Apocalypse of Adam, Testament of Adam and Books of Adam.

And yes, the authenticity of certain works from the Dead Sea Scrolls goes on:

"Because all of these works were found with the canonical writings, it has been argued that they were included with the Hebrew Scriptures as divinely authoritative.

Consequently it has been presumed that the Old Testament canon at that time was larger than the present thirty-nine books found in the Protestant Old Testament or the same twenty-two in the Hebrew Scriptures. "

And there is of course, arguments that they aren't divinely authoritative also.
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Dennae
Dennae: However, I didn't post this as scripture. But as a writing to further explain and/or fill in the details of the War in Heaven.

As far as I know, it doesn't go against scripture. Just adds a backstory.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: "You take offence/disrespect where none exists. "

I'm not taking offense - you asked me why I thought it was garbage; I gave you an intelligent and honest answer.

Doesn't matter where the piece was found or when, or where it is now. None of those things change my review.

By the way, the Talmud has never been authenticated, nor will it ever be. Neither does it have any authority whatsoever.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Just so you know, the "War in Heaven" is a New Testament prophecy regarding a Jihad, which had nothing to do with ANY ancient peoples.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: As such, the Jews didn't have a clue what was coming; the Christians were given one clue but still, they had no idea as to its meaning.
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hg1234
hg1234: Judaism does not have a concept of a devil be cast out of heaven or of any rebellion there. It's definitely a xtain story. Probably from the early first century.

Dennae: "Parts of this literature are authentic enough to be found in the Jewish Talmud."

Where, I'd love to look that up.

Dennae: "authenticity of certain works from the Dead Sea Scroll"

There where many splinter groups, cults, then just as there are today. Not all the writings that were found, even if authentic, where considered divinely inspired or prophetic.
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Dennae
Dennae: They weren't all writings.

The majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Hebrew, with some fragments written in the ancient paleo-Hebrew alphabet thought to have fallen out of use in the fifth century B.C.

And since the weren't found until 1946/47–1956, can't see them being added to the bible (or at least the bits that aren't already in there) because of Revelation 22.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: If they were meant to be in the Bible, they would have been.
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