The First Original Chruch???

Cenababy
Cenababy: The ability to trace one's church back to the “first church” through apostolic succession is an argument used by a number of different churches to assert that their church is the “one true church.” The Roman Catholic Church makes this claim. The Greek Orthodox Church makes this claim. Some Protestant denominations make this claim. Some of the “Christian” cults make this claim. How do we know which church is correct? The biblical answer is – it does not matter!

The first church, its growth, doctrine, and practices, were recorded for us in the New Testament. Jesus, as well as His apostles, foretold that false teachers would arise, and indeed it is apparent from some of the New Testament epistles that these apostles had to fight against false teachers early on. Having a pedigree of apostolic succession or being able to trace a church's roots back to the "first church" is nowhere in Scripture given as a test for being the true church. What is given is repeated comparisons between what false teachers teach and what the first church taught, as recorded in Scripture. Whether a church is the "true church" or not is determined by comparing its teachings and practices to that of the New Testament church, as recorded in Scripture.

For instance, in Acts 20:17-38, the Apostle Paul has an opportunity to talk to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus one last time face to face. In that passage, he tells them that false teachers will not only come among them but will come FROM them (vv. 29-30). Paul does not set forth the teaching that they were to follow the "first" organized church as a safeguard for the truth. Rather, he commits them to the safekeeping of "God and to the word of His grace" (v. 32). Thus, truth could be determined by depending upon God and "the word of His grace" (i.e., Scripture, see John 10:35).
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Cenababy
Cenababy: This dependence upon the Word of God, rather than following certain individual "founders" is seen again in Galatians 1:8-9, in which Paul states, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." Thus, the basis for determining truth from error is not based upon even WHO it is that is teaching it, “we or an angel from heaven,” but whether it is the same gospel that they had already received – and this gospel is recorded in Scripture.

Another example of this dependence upon the Word of God is found in 2 Peter. In this epistle, the Apostle Peter is fighting against false teachers. In doing so, Peter begins by mentioning that we have a "more sure word" to depend upon than even hearing the voice of God from heaven as they did at Jesus' transfiguration (2 Peter 1:16-21). This “more sure word” is the written Word of God. Peter later tells them again to be mindful of "the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets and the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior" (2 Peter 3:2). Both the words of the holy prophets and the commandments Jesus gave to the apostles are recorded in Scripture.

How do we determine whether a church is teaching correct doctrine or not? The only infallible standard that Scripture says that we have is the Bible (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 2:25; Galatians 1:6-9). Tradition is a part of every church, and that tradition must be compared to God's Word, lest it go against what is true (Mark 7:1-13). It is true that the cults and sometimes orthodox churches twist the interpretation of Scripture to support their practices; nonetheless, Scripture, when taken in context and faithfully studied, is able to guide one to the truth.
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Cenababy
Cenababy: The “first church” is the church that is recorded in the New Testament, especially in the Book of Acts and the Epistles of Paul. The New Testament church is the “original church” and the “one true church.” We can know this because it is described, in great detail, in Scripture. The church, as recorded in the New Testament, is God’s pattern and foundation for His church. On this basis, let’s examine the Roman Catholic claim that it is the “first church.” Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the “one true church” doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles. All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church? A study of the New Testament will clearly reveal that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as the church that is described in the New Testament.

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. In the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries, history records several Roman Catholic doctrines and practices among early Christians. Is it not logical that the earliest Christians would be more likely to understand what the Apostles truly meant? Yes, it is logical, but there is one problem. Christians in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries were not the earliest Christians. Again, the New Testament records the doctrine and practice of the earliest Christians…and, the New Testament does not teach Roman Catholicism. What is the explanation for why the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century church began to exhibit signs of Roman Catholicism?
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Cenababy
Cenababy: The answer is simple – the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form. At the same time, it is easy to see how false doctrine could creep into a church that only had access to the Book of Galatians, for example. It is very interesting to note that the Protestant Reformation followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.

Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.
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HydroMan
HydroMan: this is really good
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Scripture, when taken in context and faithfully studied, is able to guide one to the truth."

The Book is open to all but some who read it still can't tell truth from lies in their everyday lives. Note that the false prophets were very well studied too. It takes a pure heart to recognize and understand reality. The question is, how do you get that pure heart?

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Scriptures teach how to acquire a virtuous character; whereas, religion is a community way of life.

So, if one has been faithful to the advice in former scriptures, they should be accomplished, ready to take in the new, which they'll accept and absorb quickly. It's all in the preparation. The early believers had a spirit that was fertile ground for new life.

Yes, those in the early church were well-prepared; ergo, they began with a different understanding than those around them; consequently, they didn't involve themselves in politics, attacks or war, as everyone else was doing.

It's not possible to go back and practice "the original church" because conditions have changed - one can't undo history. That church was undivided, regardless of various individual beliefs. When a virtue is lost, there's nothing to mimic. Thus, they prop up a falling House by other means.
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Ty hydro. Was an interesting christian article.
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chronology
chronology: You are either ignoring or are hostile to the early Roman Church. Never heard of The Nicea Conference?

The Roman people have suffered and served early Christianity more than any other people. Am not talking of 'The Catholic Church' am talking about the Roman people who became believers. When you have suffered and served as much as they did you can put them down.

Without Roman believers there would have been a very different Jesus Christ known to the world.
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Ya'll miss a lot don't you or just refuse to get it? Sigh, .
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Zanjan
Zanjan: What is there to "get"? The difference in practice today and that of the original church is more than obvious to anyone who reads the NT for the first time.

If it had remained the same, they could hardly prove to anyone there was any semblance of growth within or without. Where would be its power?

Religion is like a newspaper - it holds up a mirror to the current society; with the passage of time, we see how civilization has been affected by both old and new religion.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Zan, firstly God is not a religion. SECONDLY I think the above says it all, the first church, Jesus, the NT is the first church. People who say, "wellas. Times have changed" say this to fit t heir agenda, their wants. The bible is clear, even about today.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Anyone could tell me what God is NOT; doesn't mean they know what God IS.

The NT said nothing about today because it knew nothing about it. Today, the Bible serves only as a reminder of the past. So much for your clarity.

You've reminded me of what the local pastor said in his sermon last week. He tried to represent Jesus as the only important One God ever sent, Who could do things nobody else ever did or could do in future. He went on to say that the Jews only knew to worship God and the law, but Jesus did something different - He said "You must love each other".

There was only one word in my mind - "liar!" This is in excusable for a scholar of the Bible! Moses said that and made it a commandment - Jesus just re-iterated the same truth. In fact, all of God's religions have said that, even before Abraham.

So, if anyone wants to represent Jesus and the church fairly, tell the truth! Christians have proven they're willing to love but just as willing to do that at the expense of divine law. Those who trade one for the other, don't know what they're doing.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Really???? It tells of today alright, look at the news, open your front door, this was not prophesied? Give me a break. Even romans 1 told
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Zanjan
Zanjan: What was not prophesied? How about the discovery of the Western Hemisphere, global warming, organ transplants, school & festival masacres, rampant alcoholism, space travel, socio-economic development groups, vaccines, the United Nations, dentistry, democracy, women on the paid workforce, surrogate parenthood, welfare cheques, environmental protection services, selling of the air waves, etc.

Corruption, the sick and the poor, we've always had and will always have with us.

I could go on a lot longer about issues existing today the Bible failed to address. Seems to me, gay churches, cowboy churches and black churches weren't predicted either.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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chronology
chronology: Twizzlers?
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Zan dont toy. Those are accomplishments by man, not what im talking about
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Oh? Romans 1
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Cena, if those things on my list are modern accomplishments of man, what are God's modern accomplishments?

"Romans" - Paul is the speaker, not Jesus; Paul is discussing the past and the state of his contemporaries - not the future.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Cenababy
Cenababy: "school & festival masacres, rampant alcoholism,"
Those things weren't predicted???
MURDER is MURDER, predicted in bible, also a side note, Children murdering their parents, is in there. The bible was clear on drinking as well!
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Cenababy
Cenababy: gay churches? did you miss Romans 1 ???? I don't think God "has to list everything", he certainly covered most by what he does say.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Murder wasn't predicted - it's always been present, around the planet. There was never a time when there wasn't a murder somewhere, especially in secular society. Jesus didn't make a law against murder; I suppose He didn't have to because they already knew this via the 10 Commandments.

He didn't make a law against drinking either, perhaps because alcoholism wasn't a problem in those days. According to the Romans, the wine they made in Israel was like fruit mash and tasted like crap...no one could drink much of it. They didn't drink beer either because the way it was made then, it was too grainy to be pleasurable.

The Prophecies aren't about the external world - they apply to events in religion. Have you thought that Biblical prophecies might be about the Jewish and Christian Faiths? After all, it's addressed to them. Who else would care?

Did not the fulfillment of these prophecies occur in both religions? If they didn't, then those who made the prophecies were frauds.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: As for Romans 1, note that the behavior spoken of is attributed to Covenant breakers - not to people who aren't in religion. Can't break the Covenant if you've never signed up.


"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
(Matthew 7:13-14 )
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Cenababy
Cenababy: I'm doing a post on Roman's 1 later. Roman's 1 teaches us many things and not just to the believers, it is about people rejecting God, who we are without God, what sin is etc.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Meh - everybody knows what bad is. Nothing for me to learn there.
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