why would God want Job to suffer? (Page 4)

Cenababy:

chronology: Zan, the Church of England is an entirely respectable Church and is the most tollerant in the Western World. Dr Graham was welcomed by the Church of England on his many visits to England and Her Majesty the Queen Herself attended a sermon given by Dr Graham and was introduced to him after the sermon. Government Ministers and MPs also attended breakfasts with Dr Graham and listened to his sermons. Frankly it is difficult to see how any more hospitality or respect could have been shown to the great man. How you can possibly think 'England does not like him' is beyond me.

I don't know of any dispute involving Franklin. If people are protesting his plans to visit England it may be because of his views about homosexuality and abortion. Most people in England have no views on either subject, but Americans speak out against such practices.

With respect Zan, you are, if I may say, as ever, confusing your view of the world with facts.

Zanjan: Chron, Billy Graham's son is not Billy. It's not my thoughts - it was a British news article.

Personally, I have no use for any evangelists - it's an industry with a very bad reputation. When you have God, why turn to someone else?

Zanjan: Cena: “ Walking with Jesus means we recognize ourselves and try harder, but it doesn't mean we are sin free. We live here.”

If that’s all Christians get out of it, then Christians belong to the world. We're not talking about mistakes due to our own shortcomings - a sin is to knowingly do something wrong. Non-believers sin too. Why bother with religion if there’s no difference to show for the effort?

I suppose you’ll say it’s the incentive that counts - that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow after you die. Sounds like gambling with a four leaf clover. If there are rewards now, in this world, what are they?

Zanjan: Blackshoes: “Not perfect Just forgiven"

Then you can just keep on sinning and every time you sin, you’ll be forgiven. Makes it difficult to get ahead because what lies in front of you is always sin. There is no protection. In your world, as you say, you'll never be innocent of wrong-doing. Sounds like hell.

How does repeated sinning (a wrong against God) contribute to a better world, in this one or the next? Excuses make for sloppy religion, diminishing its value. God isn’t stupid.

Zanjan: It's nobody's business whether or not God forgives someone. What's important is whether or not *we* forgive someone. I don't have to announce my forgiveness to the world - the other doesn't even have to know about it. This is strictly an internal thing.

Externally, the world operates on justice, not on forgiveness.

Cenababy: Zan, sin isn't always knowing or with intent. Example, if I get upset with someone, I have to understand if it's righteous upset or not, if I act ugly I admonish myself immediately, sometimes , most of the time I talk to God and tell him how I shouldn't have reacted that way. My view is anything not becoming to him or against him is sin. Perhaps I'm different to others but I always try to keep in mind how I feel God would want me to act.

I am human, I'm not going to always do the correct thibg, I can certainly try but I am not God, I'm human. Imperfect.

Zanjan: "sin isn't always knowing or with intent."

There is no foundation for that in any scripture. Your view doesn't matter because God defines it and tells you how to act. In fact, there are tons of verses in the Bible with explanations of sin - so many, I can't be bothered to list them. Just look it up yourself.

There's nothing righteous or unrighteous about emotions - God put them all there. However, one should control their anger, which stems from a lack of understanding and contentment with the Will of God.

No one will ever be perfect (relatively) as long as they don't bend to the Will of God and obey all His laws and ordinances. That's what the Covenant is for.....you signed up for that so, excuses are unacceptable before God.

You WILL be held accountable for every action; if you screw up, the onus is on you to immediately rectify the situation and make amends - this is what pleases God, remorse doesn't cut it.

There's no place for guilt in the Faith of God. There IS a place to vow that you'll never do *that* again because God gives you the power to rise above it if you honestly want that.

Zanjan: By the way, if you're walking with God, you'll always be beautiful and never get ugly with anyone because you've acquired spiritual virtues, which are God's protection for you.

There's something called righteous indignation - this is the acknowledgment that another has been so cruelly unjust, that act is totally unacceptable before God and man. That indignation stems from love, not hatred, driving the righteous to rise and pursue justice on behalf of the wronged one.

That probably deserves its own topic. I don't read that Job ever shook his fist at anyone.

Cenababy: remorse doesn't cut it? since when? it shows we are truly sorry for our actions!
repentance is not without remorse, God see's our hearts!
If I know I messed up so does God, if I am geniunly remorseful , God see's this too, should he forgive me if my heart if fake?NO....he forgives because I am remorseful and humble myself enough to come to him.

I am not OF the world anymore, I am FROM the world, big difference.
There is such a thing as righteous anger, note Romans!

I find it very interesting that you feel the need to correct all Christians about their book when you are not one! Your faith includes all religions, does it not?

I blog on what I hear, questions, conversations, my studies are posted here, not of my own. So all is on the Christian take of things, and as you can see when Christians comment they are pretty much in agreement. I don't think I need a Non-Christian giving me lessons IN Christianity, although I appreciate your input, y ou make it always sound like Christians are wrong, that can be quite offensive!

Cenababy: FYI, Discerning the bible for a Christian comes with the Holy Spirit, so I presume you are correcting the way the Spirit helps us to understand Jesus word?

And yes, perhaps I'll do a blog on righteous anger and/or indignation.

Blackshoes: Zanjan your inability to understand Scripture' serious impede this discussion .

No where did I say or imply' It's Ok to sin
I stated You like all of us sin !
I'd could drag up many Scriptures that show this as Biblical
However : It's already been answered ',

"Cenababy: As humans we fall short everyday. Walking with Jesus means we recognize ourselves and try harder, but it doesn't mean we are sin free. We live here. "

Anger is nothing more than "Tic Tax Toe"
No one wins !

Americans justify killing Muslins because Muslins ' killed American
Muslins Justify killing Americans' because Americans killed Muslin '

Repeat .

It's all insanity ! It's no way to win ! The only way too win is to stop playing ",
It's all tic tax toe

Sun Tzu Stated there's no right in War' just those that are left !

Zanjan: Cena: "God see's this too, should he forgive me if my heart if fake?NO....he forgives because I am remorseful and humble myself enough to come to him."


You don't control God. He decides whether or not to forgive you and what's suitable to please Him. That's not your call. All you can do is try and hope to please Him...that comes through tests. If you fail, that same test will return to you again and again. Is God pleased with those who keep failing the same test?


"Your faith includes all religions, does it not?"

My faith is the eternal Faith of God, which respects all religions. Being the most recent in the long line of God's Divine Messengers, specifically of the Abrahmic family, it confirms the truth of each Revelation of God as each being the Word of God.

As such, Baha'is are commissioned by Law of God, to learn every one of those scriptures in the Cause of God. Note: that is, *scriptures*, not the ideas people have devised in relation to the Word of God. I've learned all 9 of them. Still learning more on the 9th...it's super huge.

My studies are completely my own - I depend on no one when I do my research. This is in conformance to God's command to engage in "Independent Investigation" - a totally new tool given to mankind.

"as you can see when Christians comment they are pretty much in agreement."

How many? Judging from the more than 20,000 plus sects of Christianity, I'd say many more than 20,000 Christians have disagreed with each other, including you. Who, then, is the Great Leveler?

Zanjan: Cena: " I presume you are correcting the way the Spirit helps us to understand Jesus word?"

You're also now presuming you have access to the Holy Spirit...unless you're actually declaring that. This is contrary to what you've said in the past, which was Christ went away and you're hoping for His return.

In my opinion, based on fact, anyone who separates the Holy Spirit from Christ or any other Revelator, has diminished His station and rank to nothing more than the common man. The divinity of Christ is far above the understanding of men, yet men will decide for themselves what it is. That doesn't make them right.

A man's understanding of the Word of God is between himself and God - no one has the right to say to another that person doesn't understand correctly or that only they have the right understanding. I've never said that to anyone.

What I do is inform of the facts and correct those misquoting scripture. I warn of taking text out of context. I warn about the dangers of human interpretation and asserting any interpretation is the correct one - I've never seen Christians doing the same. So, they shouldn't imagine everybody else is like them.

Zanjan: Blackshoes, the 10 commandments are still active for ALL believers in God, regardless of their religion. No Messenger of God has abrogated them to this day because they are spiritual laws, not social laws.

So, for example, the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' still applies. Of course, it would be nice if no one on earth killed or bore false witness against another but not everyone belongs to the Faith of God. Those who do, must strive to be exemplary in obeying His commands to them.

Job's friends and family tried hard to find fault in him; even when they failed, they still heaped blame on him. Who was leading this pack of wolves?

Blackshoes: Good Luck with living under the Law Zan . Never forget the Law is written in stone ! Even Moses failed


Romans

3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


3:21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

3:22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

3:31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Zanjan: Moses failed in nothing, O man of little faith!

Verse 3:23 says they HAVE sinned.......doesn't mean 'continuing to sin'.

It goes on to say there is redemption from that. If this is true, then there is no more sinning for those who are redeemed. How is that? Because the power given by the Holy Spirit prevents them from sinning. Verse 3:31 confirms their obedience to the law is proof of redemption.

Job was obedient to the Law of God; the others failed because they were not. Job didn't need redemption - only the unbelievers do.

Blackshoes: Really So God Keep Moses from the promised land unjustly ? You really need to read the Bible and stop making believe that you understand Scripture

Zanjan: I have no idea what you're talking about. God told Moses to hold back the Jews in Moab because the Jews weren't ready to go into the Promised Land.

So Moses stayed with them - it's not like He'd walk in alone to meet a buncha vicious pagans, who'd say 'Oh yeah? And where's YOUR army?"

Would *you* want to lead a sloppy, weak people into dangerous territory?? They'd get slaughtered! As Moses told them, they could only win if they obeyed the Covenant. They needed more time and their foes would still be there, waiting for them, no matter how long it took.

Moses never wanted anything God didn't want.

"You really need to read the Bible and stop making believe that you understand Scripture"

You really need to stop being such a nasty Christian.

Blackshoes: I may often be considered Nasty because I tell the truth without sugar coating it.Not my intention Nor will I apologize for telling the truth. Just because you don't like being proven wrong We all sin 'God is not giving Us license to sin He's given Us grace so/as too follow Jesus n' the straight and narrow .


You often speak as though you have some kind of God given Knowledge that disagrees with God Word .
You cannot have knowledge above and beyond what God has already stated !
Either God knows All or you know all '.It cannot be both !

Moses Sinned that's why he was not Allowed within the Promised land !


" The Israelites desperately needed water. They complained to Moses for having led them into the dry wilderness. Moses and Aaron appealed to God in their distress.

God told them to call the people together “and in their presence order the rock to yield its waters. From the rock you shall bring forth water for the community and their livestock to drink” (Nm 20:8). Notice how Moses carried out God’s command. He spoke to the people in anger: “‘Listen to me, you rebels! Are we to bring water for you out of this rock?’” (v. 10). It was also sarcastic. Evidently, Moses did not believe that God would work the miracle promised. That was Moses’ sin, as the next verse makes clear. “But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, ‘Because you were not faithful to me in showing forth my sanctity before the Israelites, you shall not lead this community into the land I will give them’” (v. 12).

In Deuteronomy 1:19-38, in the first of three long addresses to the people, Moses stated still another reason he was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. He reminded the people they had asked him to send scouts into the Promised Land to check it. He did so, and the scouts returned with an optimistic report. But the people refused to enter a campaign into Canaan.

“When the Lord heard your words, he was angry; and he swore, ‘Not one man of this evil generation shall look upon the good land I swore to give to your fathers’” (Dt 1:34-35). Evidently, because Moses did not compel the people to carry out God’s command, he fell under the same punishment. “The Lord was angered against me also on your account, and said, ‘Not even you shall enter there, but your aide Joshua, son of Nun, shall enter. Encourage him, for he is to give Israel its heritage’” (vv. 37-38). "

Ray Ryland, Ph.D., J.D:


All have sinned and fallen short of God Grace .Only Jesus pleased God
The rest of us are just doing our best be like Jesus .

Zanjan: Blackshoes: "Nor will I apologize for telling the truth"

Where does God say it’s ok to be a nasty person? Where is the virtue in that? What makes you think the truth can’t be told without being disrespectful or using it as a weapon?

I don’t expect or want any apologies from you. The onus is on you to either put up some proof for your accusations against posters here or don’t make any further accusations. You’ve been held accountable before God.

FYI, “sugar coating” means to hide the truth under the guise of pleasantry. Sanitation doesn’t hide the truth any better than negative attitudes and blatant prejudice.

Zanjan: "You cannot have knowledge above and beyond what God has already stated ! "

This is true in the sense that you cannot have knowledge greater than the Manifestations of God. Since yours is Jesus, you're missing a lot of what God has stated up to the present day.

FYI, your previous post, citing verses in Romans 3, are not statements made by God. They're inspired lectures by followers who were the first teachers of the Faith. They had no place in Job's life or among those people.

In the dispensation of Moses, the style of God was to talk TO the people in first person, using His Manifestation as the mouthpiece. So, Moses is just the telephone, and the Voice passes through this Receiver to the people.

The Mouthpiece is pure and undefiled, whereas the people were not so they couldn't hear God's Voice. The people speak and Moses is the vehicle of their address to God. It's not God who needs this - He hears every word and thought - it's the people who needed that. They needed someone to vouch for them, someone totally pure and pleasing to God because they were unworthy.

At the opening of Christ's ministering, the style of God was to talk to Jesus first, then Jesus would relay to the people what He heard God say. In time, He moved to a slightly different style and spoke as the One Who was the Authority. This doesn't change the fact that He was, like Moses, the mouthpiece of God. It simply adjusted the people's view.

ED: added the last paragraph for comparison..

chronology: Zan, with respect, we have had this debate over and over in the past. When you enter the Sovereign Territory of the United States you have to be there in compliance with U.S. Laws of Residency etc. Same with the Afterlife. Jesus is Sovereign of all creation. You cannot pick and choose which Residency Laws you obey in America, you have to abide by Official U.S. Laws. Same in the Afterlife. If you are not a Subject of Jesus Christ's Kingdom you are going to have real problems.

Zanjan: Chron, the next world doesn't have countries or provinces - it has states of being. There are no translations required, no difference of languages. In the afterlife, the state of being correlates with one's distance from or nearness to God.

Jesus Christ is the King of the House of Christianity in the Kingdom of God. John the Baptist was the Holy Gate to Him. Undoubtedly, some Christians have entered it and some haven't.

The same is true for Abraham and Moses - They, too, dwell in the Kingdom of God, each a King in Their own right, each with a House (independent religion). They rule over all the souls in their House and those who are close to their House. These are the bare facts.

Jesus, Himself, said "In My Father's House are many Mansions".

The reality is that the Cause of God is ONE - the Faith of God is ONE. Whomever denies the Unity of God has created a man-made god with plenty of cracks, a broken vessel. Whomever accepts the unity of God is eligible to enter through those Holy Gates into the Kingdom of God, provided that soul also obeys God's Covenant.

The eternal Kingdom of God has no limitations such as earthly boundaries, is not confined to one religion, and has a specific number of celestial spheres (heavens). The Bible cites many Holy Gates.

GOD is Sovereign over all creation - that is, you can't say Jesus without saying Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and so on. None was greater than the Other; the only difference was the size of the Revelation. Bare facts, not crazy comparisons.

Blackshoes: Zanjan It's your opinion that telling the truth is Nasty?
I only point out your inability to state the facts and the Bible correctly '.
Seeing that you continually make assumption and conclusion about the Bible
and Noting how incorrect and wrong you so often are ! You therefore need to find fault with those that know better !