why would God want Job to suffer?

Cenababy: Why or would god want Job to suffer?

In the land of Uz there lived a man named Job; and he was blameless and upright, one who revered God and avoided evil. He had seven sons and three daughters. He owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen, five hundred asses; and he had many servants, so that he was the richest man among all the peoples of the East.
One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah.

So the moral of this story was? Even when Job lost much, he didn't turn on God as satan proclaimed he did. So it wasn't that God wanted Job to suffer, but he left the situation in satans hands, and still Job belonged to God.

Charles Darwin: Seems to me like another "moral" of the story is that it is okay to allow a faithful person who loves you and who you love to suffer at the hands of evil if it is to win a wager with that evil.

Cenababy: well I don't see it as that simple.

Zanjan: There are always those who envy the wealthy, prosperous and powerful. Jealousy is nasty and juvenile but envy is a deadly sin. Who, but such thankless individuals would wish ill on someone? There are lots in every generation - can't miss them, they don't mind their mouth.

Job had a cushy life from the get go. He was born into loving family and an established religion so, he never questioned any of its teachings. On the surface, it looks like he trusted them. He was always obedient and kept the faith - that gave him status with accompanying influence in the community. Everyone loved him. Easy when you don't have to think too hard about it.

Yet, God tests everyone because we all have the same lessons to learn. If you miss any when you're young, don't worry, you'll face them when you're older - it all works out.

Job was missing a few major experiences because he'd had a privileged start in life with lots of opportunities. Certain tests were guaranteed to come.

Zanjan: Job didn't know what was hidden in the hearts of his family members - how could he determine whether or not they loved him for himself or for his wealth and status? Maybe they were all riding on the coattails of his reputation - he opened doors for them. How convenient.

Was Job just a people pleaser? Was he afraid to make waves, was he a bargainer? I could go on but you get the drift.

Job was in for a lot of new revelations about everyone, his own self, and his relationship with God. So were his friends. He would have known in advance that nothing stays the same - poverty is followed by abundance and abundance is followed by poverty. All things pass.

God knew Job's strengths and state of heart - the problem was that Job didn't know it and neither did the envious. How could they believe? BUT, everybody knows it takes a disaster to bring out everyone's true colours.

One has to work through their grief, no matter who they are. The Manifestations of God suffered the most and sorrowfully wept the most.

Job's family failed those tests but Job, after his grief passed, moved into beauty, peace and comfort in having nothing but God. Mostly, he was truly magnanimous in forgiving his crappy family for their faithlessness. THAT is why he's considered a saint.

TheDoctor394: As I pointed out in Hydro's post on the same subject, the number one message of the book is to dispel the common view of the time that negative things happening to you are the result of sin, when that's not necessarily the case. We see Job's friends accusing him of wrong-doing, and God eventually chastising them for their errors.

chronology: 'The common view of the time that negative things happened as a result of sin' . No one has ever been able to date the Book of Job or where it was written. Not so much as one line of writing from any speculated period associated with Job has been studied, so care to explain how you know what the 'commonly held views were' of those times? or even explain how you know what 'times' you are talking about?

Blackshoes: The Book of Job is considered to be the oldest book of the Bible .
Interesting that the first Question God answers is that he's in charge' and life may not always be sweet and comfortable wile we exist .
God cares and will be with us no matter what we suffer or face

One little note', before I read the Bible as a young boy the very first Book of the Bible, I read was the book of Job
In grammar school one of the teachers had told us that if you what to read a book and understand it' you need to read the middle , the beginning, and end

So I started with Job
Unknowingly ' I started reading the Bible from the oldest book' then the beginning ,too the last ' the book Rev .
Go figure

Cenababy: Amen shoes. Valuable lessons

Zanjan: There is no moral to the story of Job.
It's a very depressing expose on grief, together with a discourse on conflicting perspectives.

People will smell stink where there is perfume; some will see lies where others see truths - each are drawn to either the positive or negative end of the magnetic pole. The division is deliberate.

The story doesn't get interesting to me until the Lord speaks out of the storm and settles the dispute, describing in detail the Leviathan of the Deep - what we call the dragon.

All of this story is perfectly acceptable except for one, unusual thing - the fairy tale ending. We all love happy endings.

Now, I ask you, how many people do you know who've lost everything - spouse, children, siblings, friends, business, home, health, status and every penny, yet got every one of them back, same as before?? Can you name anyone?

Blackshoes: Then its clear you either didn't understand or read the book of Job Zanjan

Zanjan: I've read it. Then I asked *everyone* a question. It would be nice if you could answer it but it looks like you can't. I'd like to hear from those who can.

TheDoctor394: It's certainly true that the authorship and dating of the book remain very much a mystery, and perhaps I was a bit too simplistic in pointing out the message of the book of Job.

Certainly, the book is about the problems of suffering, and I acknowledge that the focus certainly goes beyond just what I said, but I think a cursory read of the book does tell us that, at the very least, a major factor is the reason for suffering.

Job's friends insist that Job has deserved his calamities because of something he has done wrong in his life. God eventually comes along and corrects them harshly. For that to be such a notable part of the book, suggests that it was a common viewpoint at the time the book was written, and needed to be corrected.

I think David J.A. Clines gives a good overview in his (very large) commentary on the book of Job, when he speaks of Job's place in the category of Wisdom writings, where the books Proverbs and Ecclesiastes also belong.
He writes, "The Book of Proverbs is, next to Deuteronomy, the most stalwart defender in the Hebrew Bible of the doctrine of retribution. In it the underlying principle is that wisdom - which means the knowledge of how to live rightly - leads to life and folly leads to death (e.g., Prov 1:32; 3:1-2, 13-18; 8:36). Everywhere it is asserted - or else taken for granted - that righteousness is rewarded and sin is punished (e.g., 11:5-6). And the world of humans is divided into two groups; the righteous (or, wise) and the wicked (or, foolish); which group a particular individual belongs to seems to be determined by upbringing and education and there is little hope of fear that a person may move from one group to another. Thus there is a determinism about the outlook of Proverbs, and a rather rigid notion of cause and effect, which is reasonable enough in material designed for the education of the young but is lacking in intellectual sophistication and, to be frank, in realism.
"Job confronts the ideology of Proverbs at a different point. As we have seen, the Book of Job is an assault on the general validity of the doctrine of retribution. In the framework of the thought of Proverbs, the man of Job is an impossibility. If he is truly righteous, he finds life, and wealth, and health. If he is in pain, he is one of the wicked and foolish. In the end, of course, the Book of Job does not completely undermine the principle of retribution, for Job ends up pious AND prosperous, but once the principle is successfully challenged, as it is in the Book of Job, even in a single case, its moral force is desperately weakened. For, once the case of Job becomes known, if a person who has a reputation for right living is found to be suffering the fate of Proverbs predicts for wrongdoers, no one can point a finger of criticism; the Book of Job has established that the proper criterion for determining whether people are pious or not is the moral quality of their life and not the accidental circumstances of their material existence."

chronology: Zan, you can hardly call the Book of Job a 'fairy story ending' .

The trouble is we know very little about the circumstances of Job or his family. Most people presume Jobs sons and daughters, his first batch of youngsters were good upright saintly souls, just like Job. But the author or Job gives a curious detail when he records Job's sons and daughters were gathered together ' eating and ''drinking wine'' ' . Curious, when you have young men and women together drinking wine, you often have some unusual results.

Am not suggesting at all that they were bad and 'fell into the Devils net' just that we do not know what the story is. It seems Job's children were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If a Police Force in a U.S. City is told to carry out a sweep of drivers looking for people driving with no licence, something quit a few people do regularly, then 'wrong place wrong' time for them too.

As for people rebuilding their lives after loosing everything, it happened to many Jewish people after the persecution of the 1930s and 1940s. Jerry Springer's family were refugees from persecution in Europe. They found a new home in America.

Zanjan: Doctor: "Job's friends insist that Job has deserved his calamities because of something he has done wrong in his life."

That's because wrongdoers inflict the wrong on themselves first, depriving themselves of spiritual power. There are consequences to actions, following in various manifestations such as guilt, nightmares, fears, confusion, zits, bad nerves, digestive problems etc - all those things change one's behaviour. So, if you steal or murder someone, there's no such thing as getting away with it.

There has to be a way to discern a causal relationship in every event.

Job's friends were fault-finding - that's a character flaw. They made blind accusations; the onus is on the accuser to show proof of wrongdoing before making allegations.

Job is Jewish Book - Moses, while the Hebrews were still in the wilderness, had appointed a court system to make decisions on disputes. Where was Job - squatting on the street, doused in ashes, or sitting in a court room, wearing his Sabbath best?

These things shouldn't be any mystery to us moderns. I take it you have no answer to my question either.

chronology: Zan, there is no evidence at all Job was Jewish or that the Book of Job is a Jewish Book. The fault finding by Jobs friends is a universal trait among humans everywhere, from the chilly mountains of Alaska to the Sand Dunes of North Africa. If misfortune strikes someone 'he must have done something bad' is what people say. 'Just in the wrong place at the wrong time' is what I usually say.

Zanjan: Chron, thank you for responding to my question. You raise some very good points.

Both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah said Job was a real person. He is considered as one of the Prophets of the Gentiles. No dates are given. Scriptures usually write stories of real people from their own religion, only confirming whether or not a previous religious story was true, and possibly to clarify it but that's just to illustrate a point.

Yes, amongst African tribes even today, if a tribal member falls ill, you can't touch him because if you try to help, and he dies, then its your fault - you killed him. Bad Mojo.

When Job was in his heyday, we get the message he's having a good life, that everything around him is just ducky, including all of his relationships.

We note after the Great Separation that all these same people return to Job, giving him nice gifts. Why? Is this make up love? Would a lovely gold nugget crossing your palm make you forgive someone who had hurt you? No, the gifts were given *after* He forgave them so this is due penance. How nice if everyone who had ever hurt us or falsely accused us did that!

Yes, SOME Jewish refugees re-built their lives - I've met a few. Each of them told me when they arrived here, they didn't have a dime in their pocket. I appreciate hard workers, who've built themselves up; however, these gave themselves credit for that, rather than God.

The story of Job ends with God *compensating* Job for his lossess and for his endurance in His name. This was through no effort on the part of Job. Job ended up with more than he originally had.

Consider the Jews who died in the Holocaust, being staunch in the name of the Father. God compensated His people for their steadfastness by giving them back their ancient homeland, where many of them reside to this day. Note: some Jews didn't want to go back.

chronology: Zan. Job never had any religion. He was in a time before any religious systems developed, that is how we know the Book about him is so old. He simply respected God and in his own way called on God.

Many thousands of years of history have passed by since Job. God had to give mankind His Laws to allow humans to live in a way that was acceptable to Him. Finally Jesus Christ appeared and has made eternal life after death possible. But for Job, God was a reality who actions were proof enough of His existence.

Zanjan: I don't know where you get the idea that Job never had any religion, when it states he was obedient to God and followed all the ordinances. Anyone who simply respects God is a far cry from a saint. God demands much more than that from even the common man. There's no such thing as a prophet without a religion.

chronology: Zan, there is no mention of any religious system at all in Job, nothing. We just don't know what these 'Ordinances' were.

At the time Babylon was creating all kinds of political, banking, and religious rituals that live on to this day. I say at 'the time' because we can place Job far back in time, but not at a specific time. On December 25th the world will be celebrating Babylon's biggest Holy Day. And in Washington D.C. respectable people will be walking in lines just like they did in Babylon to the hum of Gregorian Chant, which is straight out of Babylon to their Public Worship.

chronology: By the way Zan, I do not suggest Job was following any Babylonian Cult system, he would have shunned them entirely.

Blackshoes: The book of Job answers every question a person could possibility Ask of God
The only Question that Job couldn't answer and God didn't answer ' is "why" God choses to do the things he does .

Zanjan: So, you're saying you don't have the answer either for (quote)" "why" God choses to do the things he does" . That's a serious absence of progress on your part, Blackshoes.

Zanjan: Job didn't ask if there was life on other planets.......and a million other questions that couldn't possibly have entered his head. These days, the story's dialogue is a good response to atheists, who have absolutely no knowledge of religion.

Blackshoes: OK Zanjan Please enlighten me What do you believe is why God
Job didn't ask questions that he already had answers too .
As far as Job was concerned and many other still agree 'There's no life outside of God plan !

Zanjan: Blackshoes, it's impossible to enlighten you.