An open letter to Christians and the Religious in general. (Page 4)

plitiksnly: Study takes time, when we first accept The Lord and become convicted of our sins, we won't know all that is in the Bible automatically, it is an uphill battle, our faith will be tested, and we will need to study to learn to fight those battles. Also we must never forget when advised by The Lord in the Bible, Judge not Lest you Be judged, that keeps me humble. And no, we don't automatically know it all just by accepting the Lord, we are saved because at that moment we understand that He died for our sins, As for the doctrine of Christianity, we do need to study it and pray along with it, otherwise we might think we know it and other faults or sins might present themselves, arrogance, jealousy, etc. It is a hard way, but if we have chosen it, we will shoulder that cross. Christianity is not an easy path. With humility and help hopefully that Cross will be shouldered. It is hard to understand that one can't do it alone,Prayer and humility and askance for help from the Lord will aid us. Faith can be strong or tenuous, and sometimes when we are hurt Faith is one request to be prayed for.

Zanjan: "Judge not Lest you Be judged,"

What kind of a weenie can't stand up to being judged? Do they live in the dark, so they hate to come out into the light? God judges all, whether they believe in Him or not - there's no escape. Every human judges every human too, yet how much credibility does human judgment have?

That this statement *needed* to be said, gives us a revealing glimpse into how small-minded and short-sighted the ancients were. THEY were having difficulty grasping spiritual dynamics - OUR challenges should be greater.

plitiksnly: "GOD judges all!" exactly! Judge not lest you be judged was said by our Lord, not this humble typing wire person. It also brings to memory that other verse, he who is free from sin cast the first stone!, Ahh knowing it all without basic understanding is not real knowledge, wanting to be a know it all doesn't make one one! It appears that Some things never change! Being wordy doesn't make one wise either, lot of dictionaries are full of WORDs, and yet, they don't know! "Needed to be said". . .by whom? a Well versed person or just a person who believes he or she knows/? No, Judge not lest you be judged, calling others out because they don't do or believe what you do doesn't make them ignorant or feeble, who knows maybe they learned something somewhere, not just invented knowing anything, and did name calling.

Zanjan: "[Let] he who is free from sin cast the first stone!"

That's an invitation. Jesus cast the first stone when He told the Jewish clergy they were a generation of vipers (name-calling)......obviously, that didn't go down well. Few openly spoke the truth and fewer liked to hear it.

""Needed to be said". . .by whom?"

Today, in the Western world, people will say whatever the hell they want without fear, even to their boss, cops, or leader of the country.....unless they're Black also, NOT a comedian. If there's any flashback, its mild or under the table because we have laws to protect our rights. Even criminals have rights; in fact, they know the laws better than anyone else and cleverly use them to their advantage.

That's not true in the Eastern hemisphere. There are still severe consequences for not towing the party line. On that side of the planet, one has to be a lot smarter in how they say and do things. Same as in the days of old, that makes it very difficult to know what most individuals are really thinking. They pray somebody will speak 'the hidden' on their behalf and take the rap for that. Occasionally, an individual does - they'd better be made of the right stuff.

In the West, our society no longer engages in war in the physical sense, when we are of different minds. Only the Mafia and sports fans do that. We're blessed in that we stand out in such great relief from other parts of the world. This is something to be treasured, not abused.

As they say, all it takes is one jerk to spoil it for the rest.

Zanjan: In fewer words, it stands to reason if you're going to speak up, you'd better not have any dirt on you because your enemies WILL find it and use that against you. The sinless are revealed through the fierceness of that onslaught.

chronology: Zan, this reminds me of what an American commentator said a few years ago. He wondered if anyone would ever risk saying anything about anything in any Public debate anymore. All it takes is for a Blogger to make a notable comment and he or she to stand out from the crowd, and instantly they become a target for social media gossip and millions of tweets are flashed around effectively destroying that persons reputation for ever. 'Who would want to risk having their life trashed just to say something about Gay Rights or Abortion or anything else' .

The Guy has a point of course Zan. Who the heck wants to risk that kind of attention in some debate?

Zanjan: We, on Wire, should be so famous.....or infamous! In my experience, debates, regardless of the topic, always spiral down to the same conclusion - Hitler.

Zanjan: OMG, I said the name - that's a sign of the immanent end of this topic!

Crash: soooooo what are we talking about now?

Zanjan: That depends on the Open Letter. Personally, I prefer to avoid head-butting.

Crash: You are an odd duck Zan....just saying. I look forward to the day when you can actually put forth a cogent premise....and defend it logically. You know without deflecting ...using straw man arguments or simply changing the entire conversation.


Maybe someday

xylance:

The bible is not a science book, it is an historic book
It is the most scrutinized and challenged book there has ever been
Jesus Christ is without question THE most influential man that has ever lived
Historians have already proven his existence. There is no doubt.
As a Christian I have no issue with science trying to disprove religious claims.
Truth matters far more than being proven right.
You want to shut down an opinion for no other reason than you dont agree with it?.
Who is the narrow minded bigot?

Crash: "The bible is not a science book, it is an historic book"

Subjective opinion ...that case CAN and HAS been made both ways.

"It is the most scrutinized and challenged book there has ever been"

Arguable .....however for the purposes of this post I'm willing to concede the point.

"Jesus Christ is without question THE most influential man that has ever lived"

Subjective opinion.... also...begs the question because your premise assumes he existed at all.



"Historians have already proven his existence. There is no doubt."


Provide evidence to back up your truth claim. Citations and demonstrable, measurable , peer reviewed studies. Let me see your unbiased "Proof." That the biblical "Jesus" actually existed. .... I keep going round and round with you xylance....you have yet to back up ANY of your claims with actual demonstrable evidence.....let alone any PROOF.

For the...... I don't know how many-eth TIME......something is NOT TRUE until you DEMONSTRATE IT TO BE TRUE!!! LMFAO....you REALLY don't like that fact huh? haha....because you continue to ignore it. Or perhaps you're simply an idiot. meh....who knows.


"As a Christian I have no issue with science trying to disprove religious claims."

I call BULLSHIT!! Otherwise you wouldn't make one unsubstantiated claim after another...Here and on my other forum page.!!! You wouldn't make "Truth" claims ...then offer ABSOLUTELY NO evidence to support said claim!!!!

YOU CLEARLY have a problem with your beliefs being questioned with logic and science. You CLEARLY deflect and ignore...and present Straw man arguments when faced with question you have no logical answers for!!! One simply has to read my other forum page to see that!!!


"Truth matters far more than being proven right."

You're right......It does.....however you seem to not like that fact.....like AT ALL!!! Furthermore you seem to think.....simply because you BELIEVE something is "True" ....makes it true......as you have demonstrated with your "arguments" countless times. It simply isn't the case....sorry you don't like that fact...or simply have a hard time grasping the concept.


"You want to shut down an opinion for no other reason than you dont agree with it?"

What opinion? That "Jesus" actually existed? That the "Biblical god" is real??!! Hmmm just a second ago you said that was "TRUTH" Odd. You've professed the truth of the biblical god on my other forum countless times....Now it's just an opinion ??? Hmmm

Also....no.....I DO NOT want to shut down an opinion simply because I don't agree with it. I want to shut down the ACTIONS that it drives people to take BECAUSE OF IT!!!


"Who is the narrow minded bigot?"

Most religious ppl in one form or another. Mainly the 3 Abrahamic religions. However for the purposes of this post ...Christians !! It's not necessarily the ppl that are narrow-minded and bigoted. It's simply their belief in their dogmatic religions that make them that way.

It's sad really.

Zanjan: "Jesus Christ is without question THE most influential man that has ever lived"

That's your opinion....it's not factual.

If you believe the Bible, then Adam and Noah were the most influential, followed by Abraham and Moses. As a Christian, you should know that if you took *Them* away, everything Jesus attempted to teach would collapse simply because nobody would believe Him - there's no springboard or context for His explanations. He'd simply walk out of the mist into a void.

Of course, the light of His own Revelation would still affect the world via inspiration but nobody would know the source.

As the saying goes, every man of vision became great by standing on the shoulders of giants.

chronology: Zan, to people who believe in Jesus He is 'The Alpha and The Omega' the final and complete revelation of all Creation. You are free to reject this. Personally I see Jesus as He describes Himself.

Zanjan: If He's final, how is it He returns?

Zanjan: I'd have to agree, Chron, most Christians don't want Christ to return. I've personally heard them say "Jesus is enough for us"; even pastors have said it.

Oddly, most Muslims do the same thing.

Zanjan: What might be enough for you doesn't necessarily line up to be enough for mankind.

Were not Moses's followers in the wilderness hungry and demand more food? How many were there? Did not Moses feed them? What about the 5 thousand who listened to Jesus on the mount? Were they not hungry? Didn't Jesus feed them all?

It stands to reason that the more people there are, the more food they need to consume.

Homo Sapiens appeared 200,000 years ago; their numbers remained low even after they left Africa - aprox 1 million. In 1 AD, there were only 170 Million humans on the planet. They were concentrated in the Mediterranean area, India and China.

Most notable is that it took 200,000 years for the planetary population to reach 1 Billion (1800 AD), but only 200 years for it to reach 7 Billion.

Clearly, the numbers have far outstripped the cultural and spiritual requirements of the ancients; scientists are concerned there's not enough food to support the body of such a flood of people. Then how could there be enough spiritual food to fill them all?

chronology: Zan, do you watch the TV Show CSI? Jorja Fox, Marg Helgenberger and the other Cast members are called to a crime scene and gather evidence. They then try and fit the evidence together so they can understand what happened.

The problem with just all the dates and numbers you have given is there is no proof at all for any of the claims you make.

'Homo Sapiens' appeared you say 200.000 years ago. Scientists just cannot agree at all on the date modern man began. Some insist it was 1.000.000 years ago, others say 500.000 years ago. still others say as late as 50.000 years ago.
The great Flood ripped and gauged the world so badly there is virtually nothing left for archeologists to study and place in a time frame.

Iraq, not Africa, is the beginning point of modern man. We are making discoveries all the time. And at least a dozen huge sunken cities have been found that were sunk into the oceans when the Flood happened and continents shifted and shorelines were relocated. The location of New York City was 200 miles inland 12000 years ago, San Francisco Bay was a green and pleasant rural district at that time.

Personally I see nothing to disprove the location given for the Garden of Eden in Genesis as the origin of modern man.

Zanjan: Chron, I didn't make the claim for the age of modern man (Homo Sapiens). Had I made any claim, I'd include the Neanderthals - we still have some of their genes in us so, they couldn't have been too repulsive to hook up with. We're not as pure blooded as you think.

The stats come from professionals - I have no idea of their means to calculate that. You will also note that when Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, their family was growing crops and had domesticated animals. Ergo, their story couldn't have begun earlier than 9,500 - 10,000 B.C. (if you take it literally, Cain and Able lived in the Neolithic period)

If you accept the Great Flood as having occurred at the end of the last Ice Age, about 12,000 years ago, I have no problem with that. We already know there were huge floods everywhere as the Deep Glacial Ice Sheet melted. Many species became extinct around 10,000 years ago. I'm thinking it was the fault of man, who over-hunted them.

Now, you just have to explain the deluge (rain) as being something that physically occurred as described - there's no scientific evidence to support that part of it as occurring. The only world-wide physical deluge is a rain of volcanic ash from a super volcano erruption - not the description in the Bible so, I think we can only take this as a metaphor.

WATER is the scriptural symbol for *knowledge* through all religions to the present day.

chronology: Zan, have you ever heard the American slang phrase 'Bussing it up' ? American Teens use this phrase to describe friends talking in an animated way like they would on a Bus going home from school. Well when it comes to the Great Flood era, and what came before it groups of people band together and 'Bus it up' about their theory.
The truth is we just don't know what caused the Flood, the idea most people have of 'melting Polar ice' makes no sense at all. Billions of tons of ice don't melt overnight and wash over the land in tidal waves like happened during the Flood. But hey, groups today 'Bus it up' about melting ice caps. A popular theory 'Bussed up' by some groups today is the 'multiple asteroid strikes' , they say the earth was hit by hundreds of Tungusta size asteroids and the global fires and heat blasts led to the ice caps melting. But Genesis mentions nothing about global fires and explosions.
So what can we say without 'Bussing it up' for our own theories? First, the melting ice caps never caused any global flood. They were among the first territories devistated by whatever happened sure, their vast water reserves added to flood sure, but shifts in the continents and their levels falling was what sent water crashing over the lands.

OK so what caused such catostrophic shifts in the earth's continents? Again we just do not know. Some say a 'Axis shift' where the spin of the earth tilted over and continents were reshaped and water crashed over the lands from the oceans literally overnight. The only causation for such an event would be a major pull from a passing planet that aligned with another planet briefly. NASA is beginning to suspect that Mars was also the victim of such an event at the same time earth was. Mars may have had life on the planet, but the devastation of the flood era wiped out life on the planet.

You seem to believe the evolution fairy story Zan. Well can I ask you this? When the Zoo Keepers go home from the Bronx Zoo in New York City every night, why don't the Apes also walk over to their cars and drive home at the end of the day? Why don't visitors to the Zoo hear Dolphins talk about joining the U.S. Navy? Why don't visitors hear Grizzly Bears talking about visiting Alaska and working in the Oil Wells there?

What am saying Zan, is why are humans the only 'animals' with consciousness?

Zanjan: Chron, I think you're in way over your head with the evolution of the planet and species. Best to leave that to the scientists. Try to stay on the path, ok?

".....why are humans the only 'animals' with consciousness?"

The whole animal kingdom covers all sentient creatures. Man, on the other hand, belongs to a separate kingdom, higher than the animal kingdom. God created Man to be a noble Spirit; as such, only Man has a soul.

Religious text concerns itself with the social evolution of the world of man and spiritual cycles.

There's nothing in the text that says the Great Flood happened overnight. It says it rained for 40 days and 40 nights - that's what one should be looking at.

When converted to one of the Mosaic spiritual time equations (post exodus), then it would have rained for 40 years. This number is used quite a few times in the Abrahmic line of religions, being related to the Messenger, Himself. In the story of Noah, the WINDOW of heaven opened up.

Zanjan: By the way, Cena has a topic regarding Biblical time, specifically in Genesis - best to take that up there.

chronology: Zan, the disaster that caused the Flood lowered every continent and completely reshaped the shorelines of every land mass on earth, this is a geological fact. Are you saying heavy rain did this?

We do not know the actual date, but the human DNA code was written in the Garden of Eden around 50.000 years ago. Man was created as a gardener in Eden. It was an arangement that went well until he was given a female. It then went off the rails completely when Adam ate the fruit along with Eve that blasted his mind completely. Personally I would suspect the 'fruit' was really berries of the Tree. Some folks reckon there are hallucinogenic berries on Trees in the Mid East to this day that have similar effects.

I think you are ignoring the facts about evolution and the geological history of the planet. Evolution is pure bunkum, and frankly sooner or later some one is going to have to admit that our knowledge of the earth's history, most of which was cobbled together in the 19th century is incorrect, to say the very least.

Zanjan: The Bible has nothing to do with geology or DNA. Not one bit. It does include geography by way of landmarks but has no date stamps. This is because the Book addresses spiritual dynamics - those are more important to learn.

How the ancients viewed it isn't the same was we do. Our perspective is affected by scientific discoveries. Not that this is a bad thing - it can be supportive - but let's not get carried away and forget the message.

Christian scholars have always taken Adam to represent the divine Spirit in man; whereas, they believed Eve represented the soul of man.

The modern, refined view regards the two natures of man - the lower and the higher, acknowledging the battle the soul has between these two states of being. The soul of man transitions from innocence via ignorance (as in a baby), with its spiritual journey culminating in innocence via knowledge (as in the mature).

The Creation story opens with man's **new** relationship with God, not with atheism. There couldn't have been any relationship with God without a Manifestation to convey the divine light to the world of man. The events in Garden of Eden present a super fast forward of man's fading relationship with God.