An open letter to Christians and the Religious in general. (Page 3)  Crash: "miraculous healings have been investigated for years by the Vatican science and medical panel and verified as unexplainable... " Investigated by VATICAN/RELIGIOUS "Scientists" Whom have obvious bias and a vested interest it it being "un-explainable." I'm not saying that is NECESSARILY the case, however it absolutely taints the trustworthiness of the results. Have them verified but a few independent non-religious affiliated labs...then a discussion could be had Furthermore ...I've heard about such things all the time lori....none of these so called claims have been scientifically verified by independent sources. NONE. The ones that have been tested by independent labs have all been debunked......completely Sooooo...there's that. lori100: there are books about the panels....many of the doctors and scientists have no religious beliefs....no ...they have been verified....I myself have received instant healing when I asked for it a few times....one was a serious injury that would have required surgery...never needed as I was fine after a couple of days.... (Edited by lori100) Crash: Well that is definitely interesting lori. I would love to read the documentation you are referring to. I would also love to see these "Verified" results you are talking about. Also, that's an amazing story lori...however that is what is known as anecdotal evidence and is meaningless to anyone but you. lori100: some of the doctors who have witnessed miraculous unexplainable healings said they have become religious as a result of their experiences..... Crash: and it is STILL anecdotal evidence. It is their personal experiences....unverifiable. Hence, it is meaningless to anyone but them/you. Even if they had these "Experiences" in a laboratory setting....that still takes us back to the verified results. Which...I would love to see. Since you said they have been verified and there is documentation on these things of which you speak. I noticed you have yet to link me to anything though. Crash: Like I said....I won't put much if any credence into those documents...for the reasons I've already mentioned. Furthermore , it seems clear to me you are simply just asserting things without evidence...."Studies have been done" "it's been verified" Yadda yadda...blah blah. Yet you have not linked me any studies, and/or documentation to back up said assertions. So until you do lori....you are simply making baseless assertions without evidence. However, Like I said...I have followed stories like this before....ones that HAVE been scrutinized by independent labs.....and as I said...NOT ONE of them has stood up under independent examination. So I have no reason to believe that the ones you are talking about are any different. Unless of course you can demonstrate that they are....which you have, as of yet...failed to do. Crash: LOL....solid rebuttal lori. hahaha link me the studies and documentation lori. Stop making baseless assertions and thinking you KNOW what I would do.  Zanjan: Crash: “however that [healing] is what is known as anecdotal evidence and is meaningless to anyone but you.” How many anecdotes of healing would satisfy you before you accepted them to be a valid, meaningful claim? I, too, can claim unexplained physical healing of both myself and one other person. One was instant, the other took two weeks. How much time do you require to make the association? The medical records are the proof. How many proofs of reality do you need? “Which...I would love to see. Since you said they have been verified and there is documentation on these things of which you speak.” Do you know of a way one can upload their personal medical history to Wire? How, exactly could any one of us prove our life history on Wire? Do you only follow failed experiments? If you trust the word of the source, you don’t need anything else. Integrity means everything - establish that first. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: Religion is about spiritual healing; millions, including myself, have been living proof of that to all who have personally known them - even the atheists among the bystanders have gasped their astonishment over that transformation! Same for physical healing but, experience has shown (as you point out) that doesn't overturn their habitual denial of the supernatural. Divine healing, on the surface, appears to be hit and miss but, I assure you, there’s a perfectly understandable reason why some are healed and some aren’t. In some instances, the reason won’t be understood until much later – few things come to us instantaneously. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: The Christians who come into my own religion stun me. In amazement, I have to ask each and every one of them how on earth they let go of their roots and traditions. I mean, for myself, it was easy and fast - I had no attachments like that since I had no religious upbringing or religious affiliation before joining. Independently, they all give exactly the same answer. That, to me, is solid, ongoing proof the Word of God is still working. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: Because anyone who was raised as a Christian, in a Christian home, has a lot of hurdles ahead to leave that environment and belief system behind. When they do leave, they're not on good terms and have lost faith so, they bitterly abandon religion altogether except for one thing - Xmas. Can't take that away from them, not even from atheists. To join a totally different religion with a Founder other than Jesus, with no hard feelings, yet still believing in Christ? That's uncommon. What's so special about these ones? They look like heroes, as very strong, open-minded souls. They must have had battles greater than my own. Who wouldn't be curious? Yet, in all the scriptures, God says repeatedly that only HIS power can move them. They didn't do this totally on their own - so, not under their own steam, but by HIS. If they'd tried to do it by themselves, they couldn't. If this is true, then it will be proven through test. That would mean, these former Christians weren't heroes after all, no stronger or more advantaged than pitifully ignorant me. Honestly, I'm stunned they overcame the brainwashing and broke through the bubble. I'm stunned that God is so powerful! I'm stunned over whatever it was that convinced God to choose them. I'm continually astonished because the odds are that slim, yet here God has moved the firmest of champions! (Edited by Zanjan)  chronology: Interesting Zan. Most people who left churches I have met were just angry about something. They had no intention of joining any other religion. Like I always 'stay with the well known Brand Names' like The Church of England or whatever, you won't go far wrong.  plitiksnly: Many who don't believe perceive all that is preached to Christians in a fairy tale like scenary. It isn't so, the longer we study the Bible the more we open our minds to what is being told to us; And the better we will understand. Clarity in Christianism came to me in my later years. Even in more orthodox churches we are told the meaning of some words from the Bible. it is not going to speak to new Christians as it would to mature adults Christians, it is clear what some things mean in the Bible, but it is not a necessity for younger Christians to understand it all. With study and faith it will come to us, our eyes will be opened. Zanjan: The real problem is *rampant* ignorance among Christians, regardless of age. There's no reason for that other than carelessness or retardation - they've had some kind of exposure all their lives and should have done a lot of in-depth reading before they decided to become a Christian. I can't begin to count the number of times a long-standing Christian has asked me "Where did Christ say that?" They need the book and exact verse number, then they run to the Book to check. If they'd memorized anything, they wouldn't have had to ask. You can't take any books with you into the next world. "With study and faith it will come to us, our eyes will be opened. " If Christians eyes were not already opened when they joined, then all they have is blind faith. Disenchantment is sure to follow. (Edited by Zanjan) chronology: 'Ignorance is Bliss' Zan. Church goers do not like all the pesky details. Religion for them is comfort and reassurance that there is a place surrounded with white fluffy clouds and angels with feather wings and rosey red bottoms. But like I always say 'each to his own' . Strangest Guy I met was a Guy who told me 'I believe in the Virgin Mary, but the Bible is a load of rubbish, like the Tales of the Arabian Nights' ' What was so amazing was this Guy had been a churchey for over 40 years, yet he held such strange ideas. Experts like yourself Zan have to enlighten these sad products of religion. Zanjan: The prideful say they have the right understanding but others don't. The wise say 'I don't care if you understand or not. Seek and ye shall find'. If anyone needs to take their teddy to bed with them at night or walk around dragging their blankie, why rip it away from them? Who likes inflicting trauma on others? Now, if they ask a question, it's ours to decide whether or not it's a sincere question. I could choose to be generous to the deserving or withholding from the undeserving. (Edited by Zanjan) | Religion Chat Room 21 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
