On the study of Religions (Page 2)

Sage of Bryan: If one's salvation depended on knowing who killed Christ and what was the charge, then God becomes the sole responsible person for providing that information.

But, one's salvation does not depend upon having that knowledge. Christ came to shed his blood for the sin's of mankind. God gives plenty of information about the death of Christ, and why it was necessary.

Several American natives could have come over in a very large canoe, came to Jerusalem, shot some arrows at Christ thus killing him. Christ's shed blood would still cover the sin's of mankind.

chronology: If I may say Sage that is an totally incorrect comment on the death of Jesus.

For the death of Jesus to have any validity at all it had to be an act of conscious decision by Him. After stepping forward and laying down His life as He did He then was morally and spiritually entitled to sit in judgment of mankind.

If He was simply murdered in the streets of Jerusalem He would be an unfortunate victim, nothing more. He can now in all true Justice and fairness forgive the sins of any person having paid the penalty of that persons sin.
If a Judge asked Jesus what right He had to pardon the crime of person, Jesus can reply that He has not just pardoned the man or woman, but paid the penalty for their sin as well with His execution on the Cross. No other person has such a Right.
Some would argue any person who died innocently for a good cours had such a right, not really, they were just powerless victims like so many in history.

Sage of Bryan: Yeah chron, I used a sure enough idiotic analogy. But, the point I was attempting to make was the charge and who carried it out wasn't important. Christ laying down his life and His shed blood was the important issue.

People do this about the birth of Christ also. They study and agonize over when He was born. Was it Dec-25th or as some believe in the early fall...? If it was important, God would have documented it in the bible.

Christ may have been born on the 4th of July. The important point is that He was born He said, for this cause, came I into the world.

Again, when did Christ rise from the dead...? Some say Saturday night. Others , Sunday morning. He may have risen at the stroke of midnight Wednesday. Paul say's if Christ be not risen, then we are dead in our sin's. So the issue is, He did rise, and not when.

Madaethe: What would you like out of religion?

Zanjan: Sage: "God gives plenty of information about the death of Christ, and why it was necessary. "

If Christ had lived to a ripe old age, not for one second would that have changed His personality, virtue, rank and station or love of God. From the get go, He was a good Tree who always bore good fruit. He was a model of purity - THAT's what one learns from.

One learns nothing from death they didn't already know. Had this tortuous death happened in a different time, give or take a thousand years, none if it would have made a shred of difference to moderns.

The only take away is that it made a difference to that single generation because Jesus, a man they knew well, was given a choice and was seen by contemporaries after His death.

Madaethe: His death was misunderstood.

It is about growth. A part of you must die, in order to grow.

Zanjan: No one knows sacrifice better than a good mother. Her child doesn't understand until he/she has to make a sacrifice too. Even then, the gown child may never be able to digest how much their mother gave up, or intuit what effect that had on them.

Growth requires a series of sacrifices; the important ones are those one has freely chosen. Why? Because with these, there's no kicking and screaming, no tears - one is prepared going in; so, nothing can harm them.

Sage of Bryan: Well first, Madaethe, understand that I am not complaining about posters hashing back and forth about different aspects of the life of Christ. I was stating that one needn't get to worked up about something that wasn't important for one's salvation.

A lot of people do just that. They spend so much time about when He was born, when He arose, who killed Him and what the charges were. They miss the whole reason of why He was born and why He died.

I posted once, that I look for the truth in God's word and try to live by it. One truth I have found, to me anyway (my opinion only) is why Christ only lasted six hours on the cross. Roman crucifixion was designed to get the most pain and suffering before death overtook the crucified.

Isaiah writes that He was led as a Lamb to the slaughter. He did not write, He was led as a Lamb to the crucifixion. Christ was slaughtered on the cross.The slaughtering of sacrificial lambs in the old testament were a portrayal of Christ. Christ was the real Lamb of God, not the lambs of the old testament.

People misunderstand how Christ died. Some believe He died of a broken heart, others say he bled to death. Can't be. If He died any other death besides besides slaughtered, we have no Savoir.

Notice instructions to Moses. Thou shalt not offer to the Lord, any animal that dies of itself. Let's say I shoot a person. I do not kill this person, but he dies a few days later because of the wounds I inflected on him. I can be tried for manslaughter but not for murder because, the person died of himself.

So, if Christ died of Himself due to bleeding to death, He died of Himself and was not acceptable as an offering to God for the sin's of mankind. Moses was forbidden to offer such an animal. Christ was slaughtered on the cross when a soldier pierced His heart with a spear.

Now all this is my opinion only and the truth as I perceive it.

Zanjan: "I can be tried for manslaughter but not for murder because, the person died of himself."

Here, in North America, it's murder. This isn't based on how long it takes a person to die but the intent of the person who assaulted them - accidental or premeditated.

I get the point you're making about the circumstances surrounding His death - He could hardly be called *courageous* if He was caught running away, like His buddies did. OR, if He caved to the pressure of His accusers, like Peter did.

Moses was a Saviour - nobody killed Him to make Him one. GOD made Him a Saviour. Likewise, it was for Muhammad. This is not to say nobody tried to murder Them, just that their attackers weren't successful. This was God's own wisdom.

Madaethe: Does anyone view Christ from how to better themselves rather how to own arguments?

ghostgeek: Moses was a Saviour? The biggest conman in the history of the world was a saviour? That really does take the biscuit. You tell people that the frogs along the banks of the largest river system in the world were sent by God and you are a revealer of miracles. Is that all it takes to sucker people? Sad.

Sage of Bryan: Madaethe. I try to better myself. Did I not write, that I study for truth and try to live by it...? I also always write, this is "my opinion only" I don't try to own or win an argument. I only post my views, my opinions and my understanding.

ghostgeek: Frogs were once abundant dwellers in the waters of the River Nile. They were so common during the time of the ancient Egyptians that they were called Hefen, the hieroglyphic word for 100,000. The hieroglyphic symbol for Hefen was a tadpole, since frogs gave huge amounts of these offspring. It was such an integral part of the ancient Egyptians’ life that they depicted the goddess of fertility as a frog.

Although the Egyptian frog has lived in Egypt since ancient times, it now faces a multiplicity of problems. Once one of the most plentiful life forms in Egypt, it has nearly disappeared. The challenges frogs need to contend with are many, and humans form the bulk of their problems. ...

“The real challenge, however, is from a completely different source,” said Zalat. “The real challenge comes from over-cultivation of frogs for use in Egyptian universities.” ...

In addition, Zalat says not all collected frogs are used. Some are discarded due to their small size and many die due to bad storage. Taking these factors into consideration, the actual number of frogs used each year is closer to 1.5 million frogs.

[ https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=5705 ]

ghostgeek: I guess having a few million frogs croaking away might convince anyone that they were witnessing a plague of the creatures. If so, it was a plague delivered by nature, not God.

Sage of Bryan: Zanjan. You're right. Murder and man slaughter are different only as to the circumstances of the case. I withdraw my statement.

But the point I was making was that Christ didn't die of himself.

ghostgeek: Of one thing we can be certain. The army of God believers will never let small things like facts and reason get between them and their beliefs.

mmickey782: , the army of God believers will never let small things like facts and reason get between them and their beliefs?? facts and reason?? I understand that science is based on a little bit of evidence and not faith. however, nothing is
ever objectively proven. Duh!

mmickey782: and no human being, no scientist has all the evidence. that is why
theories change continuously... each year more weak theories.. we need real facts and reason NO MORE THEORIES!

ghostgeek: Croak! Millions of frogs hopping around each year sure sounds a lot of real facts to me.

ghostgeek: But maybe you don't want to listen to frogs croaking away. Well, in Egypt there are plenty more irritations, like flies:

Flies are number one pest in Egypt, they are annoying insects that usually come in contact with humans due to their abundance and diversified habitats.

[ http://orkin.com.eg/flies/ ]

Buzz, buzz.

ghostgeek: There are so many flies in Egypt that expats refer to them as the national bird of Egypt according to Project Egypt: A Politically Incorrect View, page 38.

ghostgeek: Seems Moses didn't have to look far to find the plague of flies. Basically, they found him.

ghostgeek: But, if flies doing what flies do up your nose, aren't facts enough, what about some Egyptian hail bouncing off your bonce:

ghostgeek: Maybe Moses was passing through, or maybe hail is just one more irritation to be endured in Egypt.

ghostgeek: Oh, oh, so what about the plague of darkness:

On this day in 1997, a sandstorm sweeps across much of Egypt, causing widespread damage and killing 12 people. Most of the casualties were victims of the strong winds, which also toppled trees and buildings.

The storm began in Libya and blew swiftly northeast across nearly the entire nation of Egypt. The 60-mile-per-hour winds caused car accidents, uprooted trees and downed power lines. The sky initially turned an eerie white color from all the sand flying in the air. As the low atmosphere became saturated with sand, the sun was blotted out and it became dark in the middle of the day. Such a storm is called khamaseen, an Arabic word meaning fifty, in the region because that is how many days such spring storms have been known to last. These sandy storms are also known for causing people and animals to suffocate, though there were no human deaths recorded due to suffocation during this May 1997 storm. In the southern part of the Sahara desert on this same day, a separate storm caused an accident that killed 36 passengers on a truck.

[ http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/sandstorm-in-egypt-kills-12-topples-buildings ]

Facts, whole facts, and nothing but the facts.