Why do you feel sorry for me? (Page 5)

Zanjan
Zanjan: Look closely at the New Testament – you’ll see that it was the people who called Jesus the “Son of God”.

Refer to the record - to the Jews, that term meant *Christ, King of Israel, the Chosen One*. They said so; that position was re-affirmed by them *in quotes* numerous times. So, we have a consistent account of what the people actually understood at the time Jesus lived.

This wasn’t God’s choice of words to describe Him, neither was it Jesus’s. Jesus asked the people.

When Jesus *repeatedly* asked, “who do they say I am?” and “who do you say that I am?”, how many raised their hands, saying “Immanuel”? Nevertheless, Jesus accepted their choice of terms. “You say that I am”………so that’s what He was to them.

Today, do Christians say Jesus is King of Israel? I haven’t heard it from them.

Bumping up to Baha’u’llah, we don’t see that leniency. This time, He insists we apply HIS choice of words. There’s no ambiguity. We can follow through with that because we’re all literate now.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: I was trying to be very careful to make sure I did not take the Koran words I quoted out of context, and I'm certainly ready to admit it if I'm convinced I misunderstood them. But I don't see how what I quoted could be taken as opposite to the writer of the Koran saying that God does not have a son.

"And say: Praise be to Allah! Who has not taken to Himself a son." I've read the words around that, and maybe they do have further meaning than just the obvious. You say Muhammad was explaining how Christians had created a demi-god. Alright. But surely it is obvious that they do at least mean that Allah did not have a son. "Who has not taken himself a son." Are we to believe that, despite those words, Muhammad believed that Allah did have a son? The only son, Jesus?

And Jesus did refer to Himself as the one and only Son of God. I've already given you one from John, and here's another one from the same gospel, John 10:36, where Jesus says to His opponents, "what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Then there's Mark 14: 61,62: "Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And Matthew 16:15-17, ““But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.”

It is true that, in a way, we can be called sons of God, but these passages clearly go beyond that. Jesus does not refer to Himself as A son of God, but THE Son of God, the one and only.

Which goes against what the Koran clearly teaches.

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chronology
chronology: Zan, the first people to call Jesus 'King' were Iraqi Mystics. They had travelled to Judea to pay Tribute to Jesus and they became known as 'The Three wise Men' . Astrologers, also read 'Astronomers' in that word, had noticed a super bright object in the sky just before the birth of Jesus. When they arrived in Judea they said they had come to worship the King to be born.
By the way, that object, which led them to Bethlehem could not have been a star, meteore, or comet, as none of those objects behave like the object seen over Iraq at that time.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doc, Muhammad is not negating Christian history or the words of Jesus. The Quran doesn't say that Jesus lied. Muhammad is saying Christians have lied....like it or not.

People will take their own meanings from scripture, rather than seek the speakers intent. What YOU didn't say is that you believe God has "offspring".......at least one, anyway.

Why don't you just spit *that* word out? Is this not what you (and other Christians) believe? If it is, why not explain to us exactly how God managed to procreate instead of create? The pagans failed on that question, maybe you can better them?

On the other hand, perhaps you (and other Christians) believe in the adoption process. I'd ask you to detail how this occurred. Was God the adoptive parent? Or did the people adopt Jesus as parent? Parental Adoption sounds mighty sticky to me, especially since Jesus inferred that believers, themselves, had an inheritance.

Citing a few words from text is no defense of the truth. ISIS tried that and look what came of it. Their beliefs clearly go against the Quran too.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Chron, you make a very good point. All religions of God have prophecies to the next Promised One. Each uses their own language and terms but there is a golden thread of truth in all of them.

There are many lights in the darkness but some shine brighter than the rest.
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chronology
chronology: Zan, why the Mystics were numbered as 'three' and why they were called 'Kings' later I have no idea. A new fashion is to say they were Chinese Astrologers. All the Gospel of Mathew says is that they were 'wise men from the East' which at the time in Judea usually referred to the district of Chaldeans, in other words Iraq as we know it today.

The Chinese at the time were advanced Astronomers. We even have records thanks to them of the period of Darkness seen when Jesus was dead on the Cross. The Chinese knew nothing about the events in Jerusalem, and the darkness, which came over China occurred around Dusk. When the Royal Palace in China asked them for an explanation, the Astronomers could only suggest a unexpected Eclipse. As far as we know there are no records of a bright 'Star' being seen in the sky at the time of Jesus's birth, so no reason to think the Chinese were the Mystics visiting Jesus in Bethlehem. The Darkness was also noted in Rome and Egypt, but again no mention of the Star in those two places either 30 odd years before. So it only seems to have been in the skies of Iraq. One speculation is that it appeared over the site of the Garden of Eden as a symbolic reminder of the prediction of Christs Birth made there. Possibly, but the Garden of Eden at that time, like today, lies under water off the coast of Iraq in the Persian Gulf.
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Jesus said He is the only Son of God.
Muhammad said there is no son of God.
Why can't you just admit there is a contradiction there, Zanjan?
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: There are a multitude of contradictions between the tenets of different religions. Not hard to explain if you accept that they all derive from the human mind.
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chronology
chronology: ghost, people will always disagree about anything that can be disagreed about. The American Baptist Church lost a big slice of it's members about a decade ago when one Region split from the main organisation over the issue of Homosexuality.

The breakaway group in the Pacific Southwest left because they felt the main body organisation was too accepting of Gays. Seems odd how such a large organisation could break up over something like this, personally am not Baptist so couldn't care less.
The Gays have just had their biggest most successful Pride Month ever so probably have forgotten all about the Baptist bust up in America.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Fair enough. But doesn't religion teach that something universal exists that transcends all human misunderstanding? Something that people like to call God. To my mind, if this was the case, religious thought would be homogeneous. In other words, there would be no room for disputes over the nature and existence of the likes of Jesus Christ.
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Or are we saying that God can't communicate effectively?
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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chronology
chronology: Some say religion is the only mental illness you can catch from others. This would seem a sweeping statement as mass hysteria and paranoia are also contagious. Possibly a statement that religion is the only mental illness used to extract money from people would be true.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I do sometimes wonder why intelligent people argue over religion. Surely, if there's anything to argue over, it's evidence of an abject failure to communicate by God, leading to the suggestion that maybe God doesn't actually exist?
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chronology
chronology: ghost, there is an old saying 'usually the last person to know someone is insane is the insane person him or herself' . When you get religious people in a group they usually have no inclination at all to be helpful to the other group members, simply use the the crazyer ones to their advantage. Do you seriously expect such people to be constructive at all?
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shadowline
shadowline: Why do YOU argue over religion, ghostgeek? Maybe, as an intelligent person, you should simply be ignoring it?
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: You know, Shadow, I was thinking the exact same thing...
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Maybe because I like arguing. Now answer me this. Why do religious people argue over religion?
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shadowline
shadowline: I don't feel much obligation to account for that, when all I got from you was a maybe. However, MAYBE it's important to them, and MAYBE they have differing opinions about it.

Wow, I should get my IQ reassessed. I must be a genius to have been able to figure that one out.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Well, here's a news flash, Shadowline. I don't feel ANY obligation to account to you for my posts on this site.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: But by all means consider yourself a genius if it makes you feel happy.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: One day, maybe, a real genius will post on here the true reason why religious folk disagree with each other. Actually, it doesn't need a genius to figure it out. It's just a consequence of there being no God.
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shadowline
shadowline: Well, if that's it, a genius doesn't seem to have been called for. I'm not really sure I see the point of the question. There are differing religions, and there are differing interpretations of individual religions. Ergo, people discuss, and argue, about the differences, just as they do over anything else that presents itself to the human mind.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: It all comes down to the infinite complexity of religious thought versus the inherent simplicity of the concept of there being no God.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ghost: "But doesn't religion teach that something universal exists that transcends all human misunderstanding? Something that people like to call God. "

You're speaking of "Reality". While some like to call IT a cosmic force, that begs the question of where the force comes from. God isn't a "thing"; He shakes that thing.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ghost: "Surely, if there's anything to argue over, it's evidence of an abject failure to communicate by God"

How can perfection fail? God doesn't interfere with everything a human says or does. He delivers wisdom - the book (s); however, He bestows enlightenment on whomever He chooses. Sometimes, some things are better left unsaid. To wit: even the Prophets didn't answer certain questions. To most, it's clear why.

I think your logic is leaning heavily offside - that is, if *you* were bereft of wisdom, would I claim *you* don't exist? I mean, I might ignore you as if you didn't but I'd have a hard time convincing others of your non-existence. Humans have a way of making a statement, even when they don't try. How could the Divine Creator have an inability to do the same?

"One day, maybe, a real genius will post on here the true reason why religious folk disagree with each other"

Not every discussion between religious people is an argument; usually, taking a position is followed by a Q & A...just like non-religious people do. If the answer (s) don't fulfill, one digs deeper. Just take the old pickax and whack away at the overburden to get down to the bedrock.

Some things are not discovered by accidentally tripping over them or having something blow up in your face. You gotta work for it, like a dog.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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