Why do you feel sorry for me? (Page 4)

Zanjan
Zanjan: None ever did. People create contradictions of their own accord when their heart isn't in the right place. It's easy. Don't you think God knows that?

The Prophets of God don't tell the whole truth. Not everyone could comprehend; one must be prepared to accept. Thus, God has parceled out knowledge on a need- to- know basis for humanity. Consequently, the Prophets have measured their Words wisely. Reminds me of a story:

There was an old guy who’d won many golfing trophies in his time. One day at the golf club, a bold young fellow came up to him and asked for a game. The master refused because he didn’t want to play with somebody much less experienced. Nevertheless, the young fellow followed him around, being annoyingly persistent; finally the old man agreed.

The master observed that the young fellow had a good aim but his ball didn’t go far enough. Soon they arrived at a difficult spot on the course. As the young man addressed the ball, the old man pointed out, “When I was your age, I could hit the ball right over that tree.

The young fellow was confident in his strength so he gave it a mighty whack. Well, the ball hit the tree and zanged around a few times, getting snarled in the branches. The fellow was greatly humbled. After a long period of silence, the old man said “Of course, when I was your age, that tree was 3 feet tall. ”

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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

So none of these other prophets contradict these words in any way?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Nope.

All Revelators come to rescue flailing humans. All of Them appeared to save those who were worth saving, to save truth and faith, and to advance knowledge - that was their purpose. This is what THEY do because no human can - no human is infallible. If They were to do anything else, the whole effort would be pointless.

Since God consistently sends a Revelator once every 500 to a thousand years, there's not a chance in the world they could arrive at the wrong time, delivering too much knowledge to an unready people. There's not a chance God can be accused of ever ignoring or abandoning mankind.

If you hadn't heard of one of Them, you could be excused for your lack of awareness. However, God makes sure you're told of more than one of Them.

If you *want* to know, you will find out. Words wouldn't stop you.
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chronology
chronology: Zan, Hindu's, Baptists, Catholics, Muslims, Buddists, Quakers, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Spiritualists, Scientologists, the Sex Cult religions, are all saying completely different things. Do you really say they are all part of the same movement?
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shadowline
shadowline: Muslims say that Christians have falsely exalted Jesus into a Deity, and that he never died on a cross.

Christians say that Jesus' death was the most important thing he did, that he was God, and that Mohammed was a false prophet.

It's hard to see how those positions cannot be contradicting one another.
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Jesus here calls Himself God's one and only Son.
None of these other prophets ever contradict this?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doc, I think I answered that question a suitable number of times.

Chron and Shadow - what people say they believe and what they tell others to believe is not used as a source of knowledge and truth. None have been appointed as God's authorities on earth, aside from the Names I listed.

World Religion is a big soup - you should be able to look into the bowl and tell the difference between a piece of turnip, chunk of meat and tuft of cat hair. Some faith beliefs have been cobbled together by humans while some were ordained by God. Since the cooks are different, the results are significantly different, including longevity.

No, they're not all part of the same movement - some have moved towards materialism and war while others have moved towards peace and refinement.

All religions have their seasons; all will eventually die. However, those ordained by God were pre-ordained to last for a very specific period, as part of a spiritual cycle. God wanted believers to remember how many, exactly, were pre-ordained dispensations in that cycle so, He gave them each a symbol of their own to keep. An example is the Menorah.

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chronology
chronology: Don't know Zan, most folks here on wire would feel even suggesting just 2 of the major world religions have much in common is a stretch. And you are insisting dozens of them have, with a few jokers thrown into the pack you say.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Chron, those people are highly uninformed. Very few religious individuals are well versed in all the religions because they don't give two hoots and they're lazy students. Most don't even know their own religion reasonably well, much less anyone else's.

As such, they can't carry on a dialogue so they avoid challenges. How can ignorance be a teacher in these quickly changing times? What you have is an uneven playing field.
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chronology
chronology: Zan, there seems little to misunderstand. Jesus Christ is described by the Bible as the 'Lord of Lords' 'King of Kings' . The Bible says He will return one day and reward His faithful followers, from working families in California, to Australian Outback Truckers, to Her Majesty the Queen of England, to South African Farmers.

There is no way you can fit this in with your interpretation of religion Zan.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: If there was little to misunderstand, all members would be united in their diversity and the human race would behave as one family.

Count One God and 8 candles on the Menorah yet hundreds of thousands of sects that don't see eye to eye. Tell me that's not troubling.
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chronology
chronology: Well I respect your views Zan, but do not agree with them.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ok.....I knew that.
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Well, if you showed me how all these prophets agree that Jesus is the one and only Son of God, I'm afraid I must have missed that. I somehow doubt it (Muslims would be up in arms, I would think), but since you seem to be more familiar with them than I am, I'll take your word for it.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Yes, you would miss it by not reading their scriptures.

Obviously, it would be hard to convince people of 4 thousand years ago the impending status of Jesus's rank. Much more effective if Prophets of God who came after Jesus affirmed it. This is especially important when so many today think Jesus was just a mythological figure.

In the old world, most people were illiterate so they taught by their own perceptions. Even for the literate, imagine how hard it would be trying to teach without a book in hand. No references for the first 300 years - to put that into perspective, that's 12 generations!

The Nicene Council came a bit late because certain notions had already become deeply entrenched - impossible to retrieve that which the people had forgotten.

Christ described Himself as both the Son of God and the Son of Man. All Revelators Who came after Jesus confirmed that in writing. None would have spent 30 seconds mentioning His name if He wasn't a Revelator. Takes one to know one. They were also unanimous in their explanation that God doesn't beget - He creates, being the Source of all things in existence.


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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Can you show me where Muhammad refers to Jesus as God's one and only Son?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Yes I can. However, I believe in the Baha'i principle of independent investigation so, if you don't believe what I've said, how about you Google the Quran for yourself? After all, you have tools at your disposal the ancients never had.

As a side note, I can't imagine who in the world would choose their religion based on a single statement. Even if they believed that statement, it takes a lot more than that to sign up.

Remember what happened in the days of Noah and Moses.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: The people I feel sorry for aren't the religious, they're too certain of their beliefs to have anyone pity them, but those persecuted by God loving fanatics.
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Well, I have been investigating, and my results lead to me asking you for evidence to what you say, since what I discovered does not align.

Al-Isra Verse No:111 states: "And say: Praise be to Allah! Who has not taken to Himself a son and Who has not partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper because of weakness; and proclaim His greatness, magnifying (Him)."

Then there's Surah Al-Kahf verses 4 and 5: "...and to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son. they have no knowledge of it, they nor their fathers; a monstrous word it is, issuing out of their mouths; they say nothing but a lie."

So... ?

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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: So, clearly, Jesus isn't the Son of God. Not anything we didn't know already.
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chronology
chronology: Zan, I tried my best to read through The Koran, this was long before the Witch Hunts of Muslims we see today. But I can definitely tell you they never refer to Jesus as God's 'Son' at all.

I do not say this to try and make Muslims look 'bad' but just to clarify their faith to you. If I remember correctly the verses are something like 'Do not call Jesus, son of Mary, 'Son of God' far be it from God that He should have a son' . I think it was the idea of God having sex with a woman Muslims found so offencive.

Muslim writings do have some odd stories about Jesus. One is He was never Crusified but swapped places with a man who looked like Him and laughed at the Jewish people who thought He was being executed. There is no basis for such stories in history.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doc, maybe I should give you an example of what cherry picking is by going over to your contradictions topic and using Biblical verses? Surely you will see pages and pages of scripture filling a huge gap between the citations.

Context is everything. TRUE believers have always been sons and daughters of God - that's a given. The Jews knew it and used the term frequently. In the New Testament, Christians are also identified as sons and daughters of God.

When Christ appeared, there were no true believers left; no one had the Holy Spirit within them anymore - only Jesus. Note that the Holy Spirit didn't come to the Christians, themselves, until after the crucifixion. That's what a weak lot they were!

Muhammad, in the verses you selected, was explaining how Christians had created a demi-God. They never used the word "Revelator" because it they didn't know what it meant.

In Islam, acceptance of Jesus Christ as a Revelator is MANDATORY.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Chron, you're right that Muslims don't speak of Jesus as the "son of God" like Christians do - Muhammad put a stop to that because it was so badly misapplied and corrupted.

Baha'is don't use any of those old terms either - we call all Revelators "Manifestations of God".

You know, it's like Political Correctness. For example, we went from using "retarded" to "handi-capped" to "disabled" to "special needs". Why, when they all mean close to the same thing? Well, it's a gradual education - change the words and you change the perspective.

By the way, I've read the Quran cover to cover so many times I've lost count. The first time, I didn't know what to expect and had no cultural or historical background information; so, I understand what you mean. But after that, I didn't see anything hard about it.
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briansmythe
briansmythe: Cant you read Zanjan or are we back to Cheery picking
is that in the Koran too Cherry picking must of missed that verse
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Brian, if I were to address Doc's challenge in full, I'd be here typing many pages from the Quran and Baha'i scriptures. There's frequent mention of Christ. But hey, who wants to hear an exposition on the subject?

Doc was researching specific words, undoubtedly insisting they be in the exact order as Paul said them. Truth be told, one can't control anyone's speech, much less, God's speech.

Baha'ullah also mentioned Christ numerous times, including addressing the "Son" issue. Like Judaism and Islam, the Baha'i Faith teaches that God is One and indivisible and, goes to great lengths to explain how it is that God doesn't fold up and incorporate Himself into His own physical creation.
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