Why do you feel sorry for me?

TheDoctor394: This is a question for those who actually have this view of Christians.

It seems that there are some non-religious people who feel sorry for Christians. If you are one of them, my question is - why do you feel sorry for me?

Crash: de·lu·sion·al

"Characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder."

I feel sorry for anyone that is under a delusion. Not meant as a glib retort or a slight whatsoever. This is simply the reason.

The blind belief in an invisible deity .....as you can see above....is the definition of delusional.

S W l N E:
Are you sure it is 'sorry'? Maybe it's the same sentiments you feel towards an nonbeliever.

Idk I feel nothing. Once a person is an adult their decision is their own.

chronology: Sorry? most people I've known gloat at christiams, laughing at how dumb they seem and so easy to ridicule in the various churches, I have never met anyone anytime who feels sorry for such people. They laugh at all people with mental health issues, and they see christians as very dumb people with mental health issues.

Dennae: I don't feel sorry for you (except the part where you work with children ).

Oh for those that are trying to define religious faith as a delusion and therefore a mental illness, the correct definition from the DSM-IV is:

"A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief must NOT be one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith). "

You might not like what's in the brackets, but it is part of the definition

In the DSM-V, the belief doesn't even need to be what others would perceive as a false belief.


So, NOT a mental illness.

chronology: Denea, have you ever read Dr Sigmund Freud's work on religion.

TheDoctor394: I can't remember when or maybe even if, but I've long had the distinct impression that someone in chat once or twice did say they were sorry for Christians, but I never got around to asking about that. Since then, I've waited to see if anyone else would bring it up, but no-one ever has, hence my question.

But this has moved on to a view of mental illness or mental disorder, so I can go with that.

My initial reaction to people saying that all those who believe in God (we'll narrow it down to Christians here) must have a mental disorder is so ridiculous, as to hardly be worth replying to, but since some seem to seriously have such a view, I will respond.

I was going to ask those with such a view how they define "mental illness", as maybe we have different views on the term, but Dennae, and Crash, have offered a couple here, and Dennae's in particular certainly sounds like how I would understand it.

But to put it in more simple terms, I imagine someone with a mental disorder as someone who should be in therapy, who could not be easily trusted with a job, who maybe, in extreme cases, should be booked into a psychiatric hospitals, because their mental faculties are such that they are unbalanced in reason and thought. Now, there are certainly Christians who would be in that category, just like there would be atheists and people in any other walk of life. But that would not be BECAUSE of their Christianity or atheism.

I can think of notable Christians throughout history, as well as today, who are clearly nothing like that. I could also name Christian people I know personally, friends and relatives, to whom if someone came and said they were mentally unstable, such statements would be treated as a joke.

The key here seems to be having a belief that is contradicted by overwhelmingly obvious proof to the contrary. For instance, believing your computer is suddenly floating in the air when it's actually sitting on your desk. Everyone can see it's just sitting there, and also, common knowledge tells us that computers don't float.

Crash gives the view that mental instability is having a view that is contradicted by reality or rational argument, but that is a bit loaded, since how do we define reality? And what is a rational argument? I've heard Christians give rational arguments, as well as irrational ones. The same with atheists. To say that neither party never, ever gives rational arguments for their view is, I think, very narrow minded, or, again, maybe we differ on what "rational" means.

I suppose, at the moment, I still wonder what is meant by "mental disorder", because to say that everyone who believes in God should be put in the same category as someone who bounces off the walls of a padded room, believing Elvis is their great aunt, is utterly ridiculous.

Zanjan: Have you heard that the Catholic church has now abrogated their teachings that babies are in limbo? Yes, they finally said something they taught isn't true. Will wonders never cease??

This begs the question; was the dogma of medieval clergy all a product of mental illness? Are the stupid sick?


Doctor: "It seems that there are some non-religious people who feel sorry for Christians. "

Why are you thinking it's only non-religious people who feel sorry for Christians? Just because the religious don't say anything to you doesn't mean they aren't thinking it.

For example, I feel sad for Christians because they don't have any revealed prayers (except for one). You probably don't get that but I do. This is why I often try to give them some - they look like they need it.

Crash: I absolutely LOVE how when christians are questioned on their belief structure...they question the very NATURE of REALITY .....instead of allowing for the possibility that they MIGHT...just might be insane. ON NO NO ....I'm NOT wrong ....REALITY must be wrong....LOL suuuuper hilarious. Very arrogant and pompous position really.

TheDoctor394: Zan, I never said only the non-religious felt sorry for us. I have no doubt some of other religions do too. I was just referring to those without a religion, particularly those with an anti-religious bent.

Zanjan: So, why are only the non-religious opinions important to you?

TheDoctor394: It's just what I was curious about. I can imagine a Muslim might feel sorry for me because I won't be saved by Allah, or a Buddhist because I won't reach Nirvana, or you because... whatever you believe. But those who don't have any religious convictions... I just wonder why they would feel sorry for a Christian.

Zanjan: I see. Well, FYI, our people aren't concerned about whether anyone will be saved or not. That's none of our business. Our mission is the unity of mankind so, it's nothing personal.

Meanwhile, I don't know of any non-religious person who genuinely feels pity for any religious person. It seems those who said that to you merely reached into their little bag of sarcastic endings and popped out a Parthinian shot.

TheDoctor394: :-) Mmmm, maybe. Okay.

Luxxis: I am Buddhist and I see no reason for you, a Christian, to not experience "Nirvana". You may achieve so through your love of Christ and your God, through your spiritual practice or through your connection to your religion (including ritual, prayer, etc). Nirvana is a part of us all, regardless of which faith is what, etc. Nirvana is not a destination, it is an awakening. Buddha is not a person, it is a state of mind.

I do not carry pity for Christians as a whole. Naturally, there are individuals who may evoke this feeling from me based on their personal circumstances and my empathy towards them.

It sounds like people are taking this avenue to be smart asses, condescending or belittling. Unless of course, their pity is genuine for a situation. Maybe they were saying this to be rude or ill natured? X

TheDoctor394: Hello Lux. :-) I didn't actually know you were a Buddhist.

In my view, some people do say it to be patronising, to get the last word in. However, I still wanted to take them up on their comment and see if they could go any further with it. But maybe I imagined it all along...

My understanding of the Buddhist nirvana is the ultimate experience of non-existence after death, which was the one I was referring to. I'm not an expert on the religion, but I did do formal study on it at one point, including visiting a Buddhist temple, from where I got some of this information.

TheDoctor394: I'm getting this going again, after just chatting with Crash, who did tell me, as he has before, that he does feel sorry for me, due to my Christian beliefs.

I again asked him about it, and he said he'd answered it on this thread. I've gone back through his replies, and the only one of any substance given is that Crash feels sorry for Christians because he believes we are delusional.

Now, obviously, I don't think that, but let's just say for a moment that it's true. I am delusional.
Well, this "delusion" gives me peace. I have calm in the knowledge that I have a heavenly Father who is always there for me, I have pleasure in the thought of a perfect Heaven at the end of my life. This delusion is a blessing to me, not a curse. It helps me through life immensely. Why would anyone feel sorry for me if this "delusion" is so helpful to me?

The other thing Crash has said in chat, in relation to his sympathy, is that my religion hurts others, does harm to others, etc. Now, certainly there are Christians who can be pretty horrendous in how they treat non-believers, definitely, although that's not the fault of Christianity itself. However, either way, I'm not one of those people. I don't push my views onto others, I don't treat others badly because of my beliefs, and I'd certainly like anyone to tell me if I have.

But, again, let's just say I am like that, and my beliefs lead me to hurting others. This is a nonsensical answer in regards to my question. My question is, "Why do you feel sorry for me?" How can the answer be, "Because you hurt others?" If that was the case, shouldn't it be my "victims" who deserve the sympathy? If I kicked my dog, would people feel sorry for me, or my dog?

If I'm hurting others, why is it me for whom Crash is feeling sorry?

Zanjan: "Why would anyone feel sorry for me if this "delusion" is so helpful to me?"

That's not the delusion he's looking at.

Crash compares to others and the one coming out looking the weakest, to him, appears like a freak. Problem: if he really felt sorry for freaks, he wouldn't mock them. Conclusion: Either he's lying, or he has a different reason to pity them.

In my view, Crash doesn't appear to hold religion responsible for hurting others - he appears to be holding the *whole body* of Christians responsible for using religion to do that, either directly or as an accessory. Big difference.

Like any position one takes, there's one underlying reason that shores up all the others. Ergo, there has to be one underlying delusion Crash believes affects *all* Christians. It's his choice whether or not he wants to reveal that. Also, it's your choice whether or not you'd want to believe his answer.

Crash: Crusades.......Inquisition.....not just done ..."Because." Done....in the NAME OF YOUR GOD! If religion didn't exist..that shit would not have happened.....PERIOD!! Yes I absolutely feel sorry for the ppl persecuted because they "didn't believe correctly." However they're long dead...in regards to those 2 atrocities.

I feel sorry for YOU NOW...because you ascribe to a religion that is evil and violent. I feel sorry for you now...because You seem to be intelligent ...yet believe in a violent delusion.

Zanjan: Please clarify your position: do you believe in God?

Crash: hahaha ....you know I don't zan...why ask such a ridiculous question. Oh ..., also...that is a generic question....WHICH "god?"

Zanjan: Ok, just establishing the facts. So, I'd like you to think about a few things:

1. Whatever you, as a non-believer, say to a religious person, you're not on even ground. You're basically wasting your shots because nothing you say will have any affect on them.

2. Nothing you say to them will be believed. This leaves you vulnerable and open to 'interpretation". For example, one will decide you are lying rather than give you benefit of the doubt. They could decide you're a hater and sore loser, that everything you say stems from contempt for others and your only objective is vengeance.

3. Since you're vulnerable, all religious people will view you as being weak, ignorant and defective. Some will mock you in righteous judgment, some will pity you. All will view you as one who lives in a dark and hellish place with the flames of the truths of God burning your soul.

What I'm saying, Crash, is even when you point out true, historical bloody facts, even if you've had a religious past, you'll still come out looking bad and entirely inept. Maybe you'd be better off leaving the list of delusions up to the pros - other religious people, eh? They know the territory.

Zanjan: This is not to say religious people don't want to hear from you; indeed, they love questions. So, for your own safety and dignity, a reasonable policy for you is to stick to asking your good questions rather than answering them. Just trying to be helpful.

"WHICH God?"

Only you know who/what your idol is - feel free to tell us. Would it be Connor McDavid?

I certainly understand why you feel sorry for those who've been persecuted by the church. However, this is how somebody lets you know that you don't belong where they are. Most of the survivors moved on to a different denomination or religion because of it; whereas, the martyrs gave their crimson gift to God. Happy ending for all.

TheDoctor394: Obviously, if you actually study the Bible closely, Christianity is not evil or violent. The evil things that have been done in the name of Christianity are a reflection of those who have misused it, not the religion itself. You might as well say sport is evil,on the basis of soccer riots.

But, again, even if it was the fault of actual Christianity, how is it detrimental to me? Since I'm not suffering from this at all, since it's not hurting me, why would anyone want to feel sorry for me?

Luxxis: Just to clarify (above - my post to Doc and vice versa), Nirvana is not a state of non-existence. There are "realms" they believe one goes to.
Buddha is in his realm - with others that have achieved the state of Nirvana/Enlightenment. It also ties in with Reincarnation.
For instance, Buddha Gautama escaped Samsara (means the Cycle of Birth and Death), so in theory - he would remain in the realm he went to upon his death at 80, 2500 years ago. Someone like me who chances are will NOT achieve Enlightenment in this so called lifetime, I would either stay in this realm (Human) or be reincarnated to various others - 2 Realms higher than human, 3 Realms lower.
One of the Realms is owned by Angry Ghosts. I hope I don't go to that one. Eeeek.

And to be fair, all religions have the possibility of violence, Crash. Even Buddhists have done unspeakable things to others because of their beliefs. We can look to the past but why bother unless it is to use it to better ourselves and our religions now. No one claims their religion is perfect - more so, the religion they are a part of may be perfect FOR THEM.

Buddhism has definitely got room to improve and it is up to use to make sure it does. I am sure Christians feel the same way. As do others in other religions.