What is a Christian? (Page 3)

Zanjan: Are you saying that women once had equal rights but lost them 2000 years ago and have been trying to get them back ever since?

I think if you asked women *before* they were emancipated, they'd tell you their only barrier was men. They'd tell you they fought for equality - that is, equal opportunity and elimination of gender and race discrimination.

Many women paid for that with their lives. Even after they were emancipated, men were still belligerent, treated them badly, and resisted change.

Fighting for women's rights, on the other hand, isn't the same thing - that's about a thing women are already doing but somebody wants to prevent them from doing it.

Women are inventing new so called rights all the time - things that never crossed the minds of women in previous generations. Not all those liberties are good freedoms; most are just a product of a debased and selfish society.

Zanjan: Yes, in Christianity as well as Islam, the men still hold status above the women; and, for some reason, there are men's Bible studies and women's Bible studies. From my point of view, those divisions speak of a lack of trust. Their members couldn't adapt to change so have been left behind.

Perhaps in a few generations or so, they might get the drift that doesn't work anymore. We simply don't live like ancient tribals nor should we be expected to.

Cenababy: In my christian faith bible study seperately is a means to fellowship with other women as we have most in common, girl stuff if you will, it is not about mean being higher! J/s. To tell this, Jesus said to treat women and love them as he treated and loved the church, so, there ya go. Regular bible study ie sunday school, they are all together! J/s

Cenababy: Btw it has nothing to do with "men" or women being above or higher than each other. Example that i always come to "breaking families apart" not at all. My Mother is married to a Christian man, he holds her on a pedestal, if anyone, i mean anyone disrespects her, hell is brought to earth. That is a man! Nor does my Mom, stand ocer him, i think women today have a very nasty habit of demascilating nen and what is the outcome? Well, open your eyes and look around!

S W l N E:
TheDoctor, another point I brought up, which is not as extreme as 'loving ISIS' is immigration and refugees. Cena ignored it in the other thread but I'll like to present that question to you.

What is your current view on immigrants entering your country and on refugees being taken into your country?

The OT-god made it law through Moses on how resident aliens (immigrants) should be treated by the Israelite.

One was that they were to provide tithes to the resident aliens. (Deuteronomy 26:12-13).

(Leviticus 19:33-34)
"And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."

I know christians hold onto anti-abortion strongly, even to the point of influencing the laws but as a christian do you feel that passion for immigration?

It's something to think about. There is a lot of things within the bible that I'm not too sure the modern american christian (esp. republican) will be keen about.

Zanjan: Cena: "bible study seperately is a means to fellowship with other women"

That's what sewing bees and red hat tea parties are for.

The aim is to study the Bible, not socialize. There's no girl/boy stuff in the Bible. A study group is a workshop - a class. One should be paying attention to God, not other women. I've never attended a women's Bible study group because that would be like letting a bull into a china shop.

" it has nothing to do with "men" or women being above or higher than each other. "

Maybe check out church rules. I did. Here's an extract from one church Constitution: "Pastor must be a man but associate pastor can be either a man or a women".

Where churches (like the Morman) don't permit women to be leaders or employed, that's very attractive to women who want somebody to totally financially support them. Also satisfying to men who need ego boosts and sense of power. The Catholic church, well that's mighty obvious - there is no stuffier old boys network on earth.

Jesus never instructed anyone to split up the women from the men or to prefer one over the other. There's no way you can sugar coat misogyny. Seems to me their women aren't interested in advancing civilization.

Zanjan: .For what it's worth, you gotta wonder about a person who wants to be set up on a pedestal. A REAL woman can bloody well fight her own battles - mentally and physically, and bring home the bacon too.

" i think women today have a very nasty habit of demascilating nen and what is the outcome? Well, open your eyes and look around! "

You know, that almost sounds like you're blaming modern women for making men gay. I've never thought of Christian men as the macho type.

Personally, I think the blame for gender identification issues falls on a society which has blatantly confused acceptance with approval.

chronology: Oh dear, the poor gays are now in the firing line here.

Zan don't you think that community has suffered enough persecution?

TheDoctor394: Chronology... To be honest, I've never given much thought to immigration. Or abortion either, come to that.

You're right about the OT Law offering help for foreigners, and I know the Australian laws are very strict about refugees. This would certainly have a lot to do with the dangers seen overseas, and the fear of similar things happening here. But I also think there's something of an "us and them" mentality in the country.

I can understand the caution, but I also think countries should be as open as they can be in welcoming those from other lands, especially ones who are escaping from the suffering found in their own. I think there has to be a balance somewhere. In an ideal world, Australia, like other countries, should be very accepting (and respectful of other races, which doesn't always happen), to help them, but it is fair to have strict laws on how it is done.

TheDoctor394: Just to point out about the men and women in church thing, there are certainly certain activities for men and women specifically (my Dad has often gone to a men's breakfast at the church he attends), but these are exceptions. More often than not, the activities are mixed, and any Bible studies I've known (again, including a reference to one my father runs),are for both genders.

chronology: ?

TheDoctor394: ??

briansmythe: I have to agree with a lot of that Melbourne has gone down hill bad, so are same suburbs of Sydney , Prob is the Government dosnt take the right people they lost the plot , Just announcing to the whole world Get here and we will look after you , Now were paying the Price , and Genuine refuges from Vietnam and Christians from Me are refused , Or cos ISIS attacks them over there there allowed to stay , Good post and this crazy Racist stuff Im sick off it

Cenababy: Zan, here you go, in regards to pedestal, he holds her in hiigh regard, love, respect, honor, protective, etc, it is not like shes queen, not what i meant, also, not in a sense of my mother being some weakster and on a glass pedestal, absolutely not, my mother was invited to U.T. as well as Rice University, which was unheard of, IQ higher than most men and could hold her own, first woman EVER to hold a high pisition with her company in her state in the 1960's, so, there ya have it., in closing most men in the christian faith remember what Jesus taught, that men are the protectors and providers, thete is not one thing wrong with that. My mother made more money than any other company could pay her!!!! Sometimes it seems wgen i explain things in simple tetms, people are to busy being so techbical they miss the deeper meanings. Geesh

Zanjan: Chron: "Zan don't you think that community has suffered enough persecution? "

I'm not persecuting the gender soup community. If speaking your thoughts is persecution, then surely your own opinions would have wiped out the whole Catholic community by now.

Also, I think the Doctor was responding to Swine's post but typed your name accidentally.

chronology: Good grief Zan I have nothing at all against catholics.

Catholics are held in high regard in America these days, second only to Jewish people who Americans like more than any other religious group.

I understand the current Pope is among the worlds most popular leaders.

I can only think my comments that Irish catholics staring at the Sun and damaging their eyesight led you to think this. Most folks in America would think me public spirited in pointing a harmful practice.

Zanjan: Cena: "in regards to pedestal, he holds her in hiigh regard, love, respect, honor, protective etc, it is not like shes queen, not what i meant"

Thanks for the clarification. In a marriage, love, respect, and faithfulness are all supposed to be mutual, regardless of one's belief background. So, a Christian marriage should stand out from other marriages in some way. ( NOT via gay weddings).

We all know the Christian wedding vows - heard them a million times. However, 'honour" might be the wrong word to use these days, since it carries connotations of obedience and worship. Unless.....this is how Christians believe they should be towards their spouse.

Perhaps you could quote Jesus on saying men are protectors and providers - just so we know what's being said. What men are providing? Did He say what women provide? You see, women are protectors and providers too... it's always been that way.

chronology: Also Zan, I think you may have missunderstood my reference to 'church child molesting scandles' if you go back and re read my posts about that subject you will notice I have never once linked the catholic church to such scandles. The last few child molestation scandles had nothing at all to do with the catholic church, they involved other churches.

Zanjan: Chron: "Good grief Zan I have nothing at all against catholics. "

Are you sure? We all know about Catholic scandals but I've seen you dig up a lot of dirt on them and make certain innuendos in regular conversation...so, you're certain you don't harbour any resentments whatsoever?

chronology: Absolutely not Zan. Catholics have been in the news quite a bit in many ways. The last big dispute was in Ireland where they voted for Gay Marriage. The first country in the world to do so.

I may seem to contradict myself here, but I did agree with concervative catholics who said the pulpit was not the place for Gay Priests to support Gay marriage.

But as davedatahut made it clear to me when he won our debate over Gay Marriage, there is a seperation of church and State in America, and Gay people have equal Rights. to everyone els.

And I have no hostility at all to the catholic church.

Zanjan: Now that you say "it was another church", you've just reminded me of something else. Many churches require baptism or testimony of faith to join their particular congregation. Even if they're a baptized Christian with a certificate, that doesn't matter - they still need to have another baptism/testimony to become a member.

I know somebody who changed from different denominations several times and had to be baptized every time. This doesn't appear to me to be anything about God or Jesus.

chronology: Nope, I have nothing against Baptists either Zan. They can baptise themselves every sunday if they want to. They can hold church services in rivers as far as am concerned.

Zanjan: Chron, I don't think Catholics have the right to vote over changing major church laws - seems to me, any changes are done by the Pope.

Ireland is divided in half, Catholic and Protestant with physical borders. I hope those now just represent a memorial to the wars but I've been told by those who were there, that all the Christians were wrong.

chronology: Wrong about what?