WHAT is SIN ? (Page 2)

Cenababy: Excuse the typos

Zanjan: Chron: “Zan, I was refering to the 'State Religion' of Heaven”

Heaven doesn’t have borders – it has Gates. Within are many mansions. A mansion is a large, ornate House – in this case, they’re Houses of Worship, each with a Master of the House. God places the soul where He wants – if it’s not in one of those Houses, the soul isn’t in heaven, trust me.

Religious threat exists only in the physical world; whereas, there’s no threat in the afterlife because backsliding is impossible in the next world. God assigns a place for each individual by their degree of character.

Zanjan: Cena: “We do realize there are animals that mate for life, look at swans.”

That’s true. I’ve also seen floozy birds, cheating on their chosen mate. Are we supposed to be animals or man?

For man, the following are natural relationships: platonic friendships, monogamy, serial monogamy, and polygamy. Notice I didn't say gay. Before God handed any laws to man and, before man accepted those laws, these relationships were informal, often a flash in the pan and unstable.

God changes that situation with the ruling that we be faithful to our unions, according to the law, including the promise made to one’s spouse. Therein lies strength, duty and safety. As you know, no good can come of practicing deceit.

At one time, God permitted polygamy; at another, it was monogamy. God didn't change His mind, the conditions changed so He adjusted that for the people.

Personally, I couldn't be anything but a monogamist; even if God said it was ok now to have more than one wife, my guy wont be the kind who will. For those who legally have more than one wife, I hope you can afford to keep them and that the wives get along well.

briansmythe: Why has every forum Got to do with America Chron and liberty and freedom geez this is in the religion forom on Christians and now Zanjan a Bati is telling every one how it works , This place makes me laugh, Sate religion of heaven , If hes not in a house of worship his soul is lost trust me , No thanks this is getting better and better
lol sorry cant help it

Zanjan: Iyam NOT a Bati!

briansmythe: lol Zanjan I know you mean well so does chron sorry , Some times some of the thins you say sound funny to me , What ever its Called
lol

tularcitas: I feel that Heaven and Hell are psychological states of being that we experience while we are here on Mother Earth. I think that everything and everyone in the Bible represent an allegorical, Jungian archetypal and symbolic addressing of our inner selves, our subconscious speaking to our conscious. The Bible was written before the advent of psychology and holds keys. Abraham was a Kabbalist. He would offer visitors to his tent this ancient wisdom, which predates the Abrahamic religions. After the destruction of the Temple, this wisdom went "underground", but there are keys to be found in various readings, including the first five books of the Bible. G-d gave each of us the gift of live...out of pure love. Our journey is one from the physical world to the spiritual world. G-d put us in the physical world to experience pleasure and to unlock the keys that will ultimately take us back to the spiritual world and return the love, greatly magnified, to G-d.

Zanjan: "Abraham was a Kabbalist. He would offer visitors to his tent this ancient wisdom, which predates the Abrahamic religions."

What He offered was "knowledge of the spiritual realities" - that is, eternal truths. However, the ancient knowledge was only basic, a mere cupful - many more spiritual truths were yet to be released.

One time, I had a 13 year old foster child who was struggling with some of the basics. He asked me, "I know it's wrong to steal but WHY is it wrong?" It saddened me to realize how deprived he'd been; the child should have known the answer to that question at age 7, without using any religious references at all! He simply didn't know.

Of course, we had a long conversation so he came away with knowledge in hand; yet that doesn't mean he'd have the will to live by it on his own. You see, knowledge is not wisdom - *understanding* is wisdom.

You can't give people understanding - only God can bestow that. When people aren't willing to obey the laws, they don't get the hands on experience required to help them understand WHY something works. One learns by the doing.

ghostgeek: Nobody even knows if there was a Abraham, so saying he was a Kabbalist is just pie in the sky nonsense.

Cenababy: Ummm Abraham was after even Noah and was a big reason for the abrahamic religion so that hardly says a kabbalist

deuce916: Sin is something you come up with when you want to show off that you know all about life. It is actually righteousness covering up fear of whatever it is you think is sinful.

Zanjan: One shouldn't confuse the Cabal (post Moses) with the Kaaba, which is the point in the East to which the religious turn in prayer. Abraham and Ishmael built the first House of Worship there - you know, the big cube in Mecca - that's the place Muslims turn to and is also their main center of pilgrimage.

You're right, Cena........the Cabal, otherwise known as the Zohar, was way more recent than Moses; it's not actually Jewish, it's just a claim made by a certain Rabbi to esoteric knowledge. That's not unique; you can find all kinds of other groups these days who've made the same claim.

ghostgeek: Maybe if people were a little less focused on the sins of others, and paid more attention to what they did themselves, the world would be a better place.

Zanjan: They're just sympathizing with each other. Christians believe everyone is a sinner, including themselves. For some reason, they think everyone is like them.

tularcitas: If anything, sin is "missing the mark" in the context of a social construct.

Zanjan: Weakness isn't a sin. One has to *ignore* the mark entirely in order to sin.

tularcitas: Weakness and strength "need" each other since they dialectically define each other.

Zanjan: Well, that would be on the world stage - that is, group social interaction. Individually, weakness is merely that red flag, saying one needs more understanding.

I mean, one could still be obeying the law and the Will of God but, when it feels difficult or painful to do so, that's the mark of weakness.

Individually, the aim is to rise above human limitations so there is never even a hint of temptation. That's what it means to operate at full strength. That's doable.

tularcitas: Human limitations....This brings up a query.....Irrespective of the concept of "free will", if G-d is omnipotent and omniscient, then why would he make an imperfect product, in us humans, so that "sin" is even a known concept?

ghostgeek: That's an easy one to answer. God loves to punish.

Zanjan: Tularcitas, good question about limitations. This physical plane is the world of imperfection. Everything God creates is perfect in its place, and each unit has its relative perfection. (only God is absolutely flawless)

An example would be a rose. Without manure, it wont do well or even bloom.

There might be 4 beautiful blossoms on the bush but we pick the very best one for exhibition. For judging, we wont choose the best one at all if it doesn't conform to the *standard of perfection* - that is, the official species and variety cookie cutter:

It's a marvel to the eye, pristine..every petal is the exact number, placed exactly where it should be, the right colour and shading. It's at the perfect stage of bloom, fresh, no hail damage, no mutant twists, bending, bug holes, rain stains - not a mark or smudge of pollen....its leaves have to be pristine too and, its particular fragrance the right strength and true.

While it's a BIS ribbon winner to the naked eye and nose, if you took a microscope to it, you could find many flaws; BUT, when the naked eye sees no flaw, then it's "perfect" to us.

Like this, God created each of us to be - not identical but equally lovely in soul, filled with perfect potential to reflect divine virtues.

We start out as seeds, sprouts and saplings; one day, we hope to flower. While the flower may or may not be magnificent, God is waiting for it to produce fruit. This is the purpose of the earthly plane of existence. The soul wouldn't be a good producer if it wasn't nurtured in the heart of God.

By the time our lives naturally end, most of us look pretty ratty and battle-scarred but some of us have left fruit behind that looks much better than we do. Once we move on to the next world, any ugliness is sloughed off and only the good we've built in our character remains.

There's no way the human eye can see the true nobleness of the soul; one must see it with the eye of God.

Cenababy: Should we just simplify? Sin is anything wrong, negative, harm of self or others!!!!! Example; I sit with a group of women, they start talking ugly smack about another woman, ie; gossip, hateful talk, this is wrong or sin. So what's the answer, turn from them, see what they are doing and change yourself for the best. I hope this simplifies sin.

Cenababy: GOD expects us to change, that's a re birth, so for Christians born again. We hold standards that God sees as best, we leave our old worldly secular selves, cleanse ourselves. Example: the other day I got irritated at someone driving, i mouthed off , it was ugly, as a christian I was immediately slapped by my God conscience if you will, apologized and chastised myself, no one knew but me. There is the change!

Zanjan: " Should we just simplify?"

Ok, I like chocolate, often - it's a sinfully decadent desert. Does that work for you?

I don't think we need to *define* sin when God already did. He informed the believers so they would be guided; whereas, unbelievers are deprived. We only need to recognize it by knowing what goes against our conscience, if we have one. We aren't judges of those who have no conscience and those who follow no religion. They've already been judged.

Zanjan: "So what's the answer,...."


Don't participate. If gossipers know you don't gossip, they won't gossip in front of you. Personally, I walk away from that and busy myself with something else because I don't want to hear that stuff.

If, however, somebody in my own religion is doing it, they must be a newbie; gossip, fault-finding, and backbiting are forbidden by law but newbies aren't clear on what that actually entails.

A few are very rigid the other way - that is, they believe if you convey any information at all about someone without their consent, you're breaking the law. For example, if you tell them you heard Bob is sick so you're going to visit him in the hospital, they think that's gossip and backbiting. We need to seek moderation by asking ourselves what the result might be.

There are parameters; it's ours to see that it fits. If it's real gossip/backbiting, I tell them gently that what they've said isn't serving any purpose/ is none of my business. It's not my job to chastise others.

I've found that modeling upright conduct speaks volumes - never underestimate its power to inspire others.