The bible in English, why, where? (Page 5)

Zanjan: Doctor, guess how long they've known they were living in the latter days? You can't bury that. What one can do is pretend the latter days go on forever. When one gives up on 'the watch', they know. They don't have to say anything.

You've brought to mind all those Christians who say they really want Christ to return and fix the world. Most of all, they want Christ, when He returns, to choose them. They have absolutely no idea what they're asking for.

Zanjan: Chron, if they can't recognize that the anti-Christ is already here, how will they recognize the Christ???

In 2000, the Pope honoured thousands of Christians who were martyred in the 20th century. Last year, he honoured 43 Martyrs who were burned alive for not renouncing their faith in Uganda in 1885-87.

Just the other day, the Pope was at a ceremony for another group of Christian martyrs, recently killed for their faith. I don't know the story behind any of them because it was just a news flash.......I think it was in Egypt. He came to say thank you to them for standing on principle. So, it's clear that some Christians know. I suppose one day, the Pope will name them all as saints.

One thing is certain, their killers were not "Pro-Christ". Before them, there was more than 20,000 Babi's martyred for their faith in the early to mid 1800s for not recanting their belief. The Baha'is also, hundreds and hundreds, and still ongoing.

chronology: Zan, I have heard everyone from the Pope, to Billy Graham, to President Obama, to Ms Hillary Clinton called the Anti Christ.

Sorry to hear about the Bahi people being persecuted. I remember year's ago the USA was calling for an end to persecution of the Bahi in Iran.

Zanjan: Political shame doesn't appear to move tyrants. However, it does raise awareness. It informs the tyrants that we know what they're up to and nobody outside their regime supports that.

chronology: Zan talking of people accused of being Anti Christ, one curious point about Father Divine is that the IRS never discovered where his money came from.

He always refused contributions, which were Taxable, but he was never short of cash. He used to drive around Harlem and other places with a suitcase full of dollars buying property. He became the biggest property owner in Harlem.

His biggest mansion in Philadelphia was a gift from a wealthy deciple but all his other properties he paid for cash on the nose.

Am not disrespecting Father Divines memory or anything. But the kind of money he was spending must have come from somewhere.

TheDoctor394: Sorry, Zanjan, but I don't have a clue what your reply to me means.

You said all Christians know we are past the end times, and my response was that I don't know of any Christian who thinks that. Indeed, it's quite the opposite. The history of the church has many Christians insisting we're near the end. It continues now. Personally, I believe we have been in the end times ever since Jesus was taken to Heaven, and will continue to be until He returns.

Now, whether we're right or not, my point is that Christians do not believe we're past the end times,

Cenababy: Doc

Zanjan: Doc: "You said all Christians know we are past the end times, and my response was that I don't know of any Christian who thinks that."


First, how many Christians have you asked? I think you're making some assumptions there. Seen any shifty eyes or people changing the subject, maybe feeling awkward? With all due respect, what makes you believe you know what they really think - their words?? I tell you, words mean nothing - action tells us the truth.

Zanjan: "Personally, I believe we have been in the end times ever since Jesus was taken to Heaven"


Well, that's one perspective - from a Jewish standpoint. Otherwise, I can't imagine how you'd think it was the end for Christianity after only 3 years (the length of Jesus's earthly mission) . It was merely the end of His physical presence, which only a few ever had access to anyway.

Do you think He just sat in heaven, doing nothing??

If you're basing that on the end of a generation (Christ's own generation), then all of Christ's prophesies for the JEWS would have come true. How many years was a generation then? As you know, some of these prophecies came to pass by 70 AD. However, there were some that were much further reaching into the future, for Jews, Christians and Gentiles alike.

On the larger scale, the *end times* for Christianity refers to the end of Christ's dispensation - the signs were boldly described by Jesus, Himself. The signs indicate that Revelation no longer is effective for mankind. The dispensation officially ends when the next Manifestation of God arrives with a new Revelation, a new Book, and His own dispensation - that is, when a new Light comes to the world.

The latter days are dark, it's the night, just before the sun rises. Will you tell me that no Christian has seen any new light in the last century, even?? I know they have!

Zanjan: Suffice to say, you can't read the scriptures and pray to God day in and day out and get nothing back. That would be impossible.

TheDoctor394: Zanjan, as someone who has grown up in Christian circles, and has spent the last twenty years chatting in Christian rooms, not to mention being the son of a man who has written books in response to the overwhelming amount of attempts by mislead people to convince others that Jesus is about to come back because we are in the end times, and as someone who also, rather unwisely, subjects himself to Christian television way too often, I can promise you that, if there are any Christians out there who think we are actually past the end times (however that term might be defined), they must be in an extreme minority and very, very quiet.

Cenababy: Doc exactly, i have never heard that either

Zanjan: Well, that's the thing, Doc - they ARE very quiet. You explained why:

" in response to the overwhelming amount of attempts by mislead people to convince others that Jesus is about to come back.."

I walk into a church and all I see are very sleepy eyes, even when they're singing. I'm not kidding - the eyes are the windows to the soul. The clergy has done a damn fine job of convincing congregations to give up so they have nothing to keep them alert.

Why would they do that? Oh, let me see.....if they spotted Christ, they might be out of a job? This is why they say, quote: "Jesus is enough for us".

chronology: Sleepy? Well Zan you have never been in the fastest growing sect, the pentecostal crowd.

Personally I would advise you to stay away from such churches, but their shared manic behaviour is anything but sleepy

Zanjan: The Pentacosts? In my town, that's a dead church - no kids, nobody under 60 years old, and 12 members, who don't even meet at Christmas. Nothing manic about seniors unless they have dementia.

In the city, where there's a bit more than 1.5 million people (not in the Bible Belt), there are 3 Pentacostal churches - one of them is strictly Chinese. I've seen them forgive everything, even manslaughter. So, I don't suppose they walk around with much guilt.

Funny how every church (and religion) likes to think it's the fastest growing - as if that means its more true than the others.

Zanjan: You've somehow reminded me of a recent sermon the Pastor gave. He was adamant in his instruction that Christ has been the ONLY person at any time in history through whom anybody could be saved. Well, I mentally told him to "Piss off!" I still mean that.

One never knows who's sitting in the audience, eh.

See, this is the cool thing about being clergy - after the sermon, nobody can talk to them about their sermon. They make totally sure of that as the people file out of the building.

chronology: You are probably right Zan, probably just some sound bite thrown out in the news.

I don't criticise any church myself. Religion does seem to provide comfort and reasurance in troubled times for some people.

Zan, clergy do have a difficult job. Around 1 in 3 are gay, and even in these accepting times people can be pretty judgmental. The Police do seem to give clergy a pass when they stop them in cars with their lovers, But even the police can't cover up for them sometimes.

Some years ago some Detectives were baffled by what they found when they were called to one clergy guys home after he had not been seen for a few days. He was in bed dressed in a Gimp suite, with chains and rings through his penis and nipples. Seems a private auto erotic game had gone wrong.

Police also could not cover for one poor clergy guy who was found walking naked through the streets with his testicles in his hand. Seems he was visiting his boyfriend when a sex game went wrong and he had his testicals torn off.

It is not just clergy tho, all kinds of people are injured in sex games.

Zanjan: "I don't criticise any church myself."

Of course, it's not fair to criticize a whole church just because some of their teachers are way out of line in the things they do or say. Unfortunately, the people take their clergy's word as equal to the word of God and therein lies the problem.

Nevertheless, I hold them responsible for teaching stuff that Christ simply never said. If the opportunity arises, I'll take it up with them. That's easy with Jehovah's Witnesses - they come to you LOL. I never close the door to them. We live in times where it's the lay people who spread the teachings, not the clergy, so I go easier on them.

I do have something against one church, a sect which was a farce from the get go but I'm not the sort to reveal their identity - I feel it's up to each person to figure that out for themselves. However, when I meet someone who says they belong to that church, I instantly know a lot more about them then they'd want me to know.

Zanjan: Clergy, to me, are like politicians - I keep my nose out of their private lives (off shift) and just pay attention to how they do the job they were hired for. They're employees like any other - if they're abusing their position, nobody's going to take kindly to that.

Still, Chron, you have a point about overall conduct. One of my distant in-laws used to work in an "Adult" shop in the city. At parties, she'd tell us about her customers, some of whom were priests. I asked "How do you know they were priests?" She replied, "From the name on their debit/credit cards and the Priest's garb they wore".

Now why on earth would a Priest be buying sex toys without going incognito?
That would not be somebody you'd want to instruct you on religion. It's not so much what they do in their private lives, it's more about sheer stupidity.

TheDoctor394: There are certainly plenty of problems in Christian church today, as there always have been. But, with respect, Zanjan, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to such things. I am no fan of Pentecostal churches at all, but the fact is they are booming in many countries, and have been for years, and they certainly do not have congregations with "sleepy eyes", or "clergy" who have "convinced them to give up". The same could undoubtedly be true of many other, more conservative churches, like the one my parents go to.

And how does my comment, "in response to the overwhelming amount of attempts by mislead people to convince others that Jesus is about to come back", explain that, according to you, every Christian thinks we have gone past the end times?

Zanjan: Doctor, I don't follow what each church does in other countries or even outside my own region, other than paying attention to big news items.

I hear what Christians say and what they tell me. I observe, first hand, what they do in my region, which is the strongest center of Christianity in our western provinces. That's why Canadians call it the Bible Belt. I'm up to date by the week.

It's my business to know their status and what they believe because these are the people I teach my faith to. How could I expect them to recognize my faith if I didn't recognize theirs? What an ineffectual speaker I'd be if I didn't know my audience!! They're mostly agricultural people, who have bigger hearts than city people.

So, if this is Christianity's best output today, if these people are their finest, then what must it be in the weak zones?

By the way, Christianity isn't *growing* - its numbers may be increasing elsewhere in certain places while they wither and shrink in others, but it's far too old to grow. Christianity has expanded to the far reaches of the earth so it has no where else to go.

Quantity doesn't mean quality or success....it just means this is what people in that area want.

I'm being very accurate when I say that my region is the Christian canary in the coal mine.

TheDoctor394: It's true, Christianity would vary in different parts of the world. No doubt. I have my views after over twenty years going to church, twenty years (partly lapping) in chats (with people largely from the USA, but in a number of other countries too), and too many viewings of Christian television, as well as many Christian books, websites and three years at Bible College.

As to whether it is growing or shrinking, again, in some places, it's not as big as it was, while in others, like China, it is growing rapidly. There certainly are other places it can go, since there are places in the world that are still to be reached.

Zanjan: Where?

With your kind of background, I doubt your views diverge from the mainstream Christian perspective. Nothing, I think that would get you booted out of a church.

You know, when it comes to observing 'eyes', I have a very distinct advantage - I have something to which I can compare.

I've attended community gatherings with all different religions, including visiting their Houses of Worship and enjoyed their services, from Jews to Hindu to Sikh, Buddhist, Christians Muslim etc. I've looked into their eyes, watched what they do, listened to them talk, learned about their teachings. I've gone to their gatherings because that's how I can be more certain to find the serious, active believers, the members in good standing - not the loose nuts on the streets. Consequently, I do have my favorites.

Christians don't do that. They don't know what the others look like and how they are when they worship. So, Doc, how can *you* make that comparison?

TheDoctor394: I'll get back to you on the unreached... Just doing some checks on it.

But I do wish you wouldn't make such sweeping statements about Christians. Certainly, way too many don't take enough interest in other religions and their points of view. This site is permeated by a dreadful "agree with us or get lost" attitude from too many Christians - I am banned from one site here because of my objections to it, and was almost kicked from another.

But, thankfully, we are not all like that. I again refer to my three years studying at the Bible College of Queensland. I did a World Religions class, where we covered Islam and Buddhism. This included visiting a mosque and a temple. We didn't go there to preach, but to try and understand them better. I will be honest and say I should really have done more study into these beliefs over the years, and others, but I can only read and experience so much. However, I do still try and understands other points of view, when the opportunity arises, as much as I can.

And I am certainly not alone in this. Christian apologist James White is very knowledgeable on religions like Islam, debating Muslims regularly. It's simply unfair and untrue to say that Christians take no interest in other religions at all, or don't try to understand where others are coming from. Too many have that attitude, certainly. But to say we're all like that is simply wrong.

And I would wonder just how knowledgeable you are with various religions, since you've demonstrated here that you have a very narrow, and often very inaccurate view of Christianity and Christians.

Zanjan: "But I do wish you wouldn't make such sweeping statements about Christians"

Hmm......do you not think "sweeping statements" is a euphemism for 'reputation'? Every religion has one and the members can't disassociate themselves from that. Surely you realize the "eyes" are my own opinion since this isn't something that can be measured. Obviously, I'm viewing Christians from the outside looking in. You can't.

The statements I make are strictly founded on historical fact plus my own first hand observations. I don't repeat things third party and rarely mention the exceptions, be they negative or positive. You, Doc, are one of the exceptions to the rule. I'm sure you realize how difficult it would be to interest your local congregation to all do the same.

That's not so for Baha'is - we all MUST do that by the command of God. He doesn't want us to be ignorant or fail to give other religions due recognition. Of course, we love that but in case there's the odd person who thinks they don't need to, well, God says otherwise.