Do you forgive the Church?

S W l N E
S W l N E: Pope Francis recently asked for forgiveness for the church's strong role in Rwanda's genocide between the Hutu & Tutsi.

The church role includes:
1. Inciting hatred towards the ethnic groups.
2. Direct slaughtering and raping by not only its members but leaders within the church.
3. Siding with the Hutu elites and even aid in the implementation of policies to discriminate against the Tutsis.
4. Aided in planning the genocide.
5. Resist efforts to acknowledge involvement.
6. While the Vatican stated through the years that the actions were not of the church but done by individuals of the church and bore no responsibility, a network helped the priests and nuns evade justice by transferring them to Europe.

I'm not sure what additional acts there are but that's the list I'm aware of.

So forgiven or not?
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Nicotina
Nicotina: The Church ought to get the same amount if forgiveness as the Nazi Regime. Forgive them for their actions because carrying hate and anger destroys the one hating. Those who are guilty need to be held accountable and punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Forgiveness does not negate the person's culpability.
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S W l N E
S W l N E: True, the genocide was fairly recent 1994, so that means that it is highly likely that those who partook are still alive. A better gesture would've been to give the relevant authorities the necessary information to identify them.
It's also not clear that those who aided/carry out the atrocity are asking for forgiveness or even regret their part in it all.
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Nicotina
Nicotina: Forgiveness is about the person who was wronged. Hopefully forgiveness allows the victim to move forward in their life. When an abuser is forgiven by the victim, the abuser no longer the power. Forgiveness is a choice that a victim makes if and when the time is right for them. Respecting the victims is of the utmost importance.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Forgiveness is formal recognition that one holds no inner resentments or grudges - withholding it for any amount of time *NEVER* 'eats up' the person IF one practices detachment. That's an important principle, not to be overlooked.

It's easy to forgive an accident or misunderstanding when it's unintentional; the reason we can't forgive wrongs *done on purpose* is that something more than an apology is required for that to happen.

If forgiveness is given at the expense of justice, that act is as blameworthy as the original wrong. Therefore, justice trumps forgiveness.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I was never a member of the church nor party to the things that went on in Africa. Yet when one man or institution wrongs or hurts another, it's the same as wronging me.

FACT: the massacre was a crime against God and humanity. "Sorry" doesn't cut it when there is no attempt to make restitution. The injustices will continue.

If there is true remorse for facilitating dirty deeds done on purpose, then the church owes humanity something more than a word. It owes it's membership and the victims compensation. There can be no truth and reconciliation without that.
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briansmythe
briansmythe: But that does not apply to ISLAM in your opiion Zanjan a muslim can hold people hostage and get people killed , or a kid can shoot counter terrorism police Going Allah ag buck The head IMRANS get on tv and say noting to do with iSLAM its a religion of peace OK yeah like I really believe them, No were going to try and address the problem no nothing your a hyprociate , with your the Koran the Hadith is the perfect word of god
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The discussion wasn't about Christianity; likewise, Islam doesn't factor into similar abominations.

It's true that Muslims don't consider religious militants to be followers of Islam - they've rejected them and boot them out of their mosques. Do you think they don't know who's in their congregation? Why else do you think ISIS kills Muslims too and blows up their mosques?

Why don't you believe this? Is it because you don't hang out with any Muslims? Or you're just not interested in reading their policies and principles?

As for your last line, I'm not a Muslim and you know it. I support all Holy Scriptures - the Hadith isn't one of those.

FYI, those posting here are not anyone's personal punching bags and, hypocrites are those who don't keep the Covenant.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: In keeping with the topic, refer to the terrible stories of residential schools for Canadian Indigenous peoples. I personally know many who went through those awful times and the unspeakable things those children (who survived) suffered at the hands of church ministers.

The First Nations only wanted to be heard so they could get those schools closed down but they also needed justice. The church didn't step forward, never even tried to heal their wounds, which lasted a lifetime.

Our Canadian government shouldered responsibility. The former government had contracted the church to assist in the integration and education of these children. They did so in good faith but trusted the wrong people. For this, they received the full blame. While their wrong was unintentional, they'd made the wrong worse by believing what the church said instead of the people.

We have a different government now. Not only has our government given a full apology for wrongs THEY didn't commit, they paid the victims compensation; additionally, they sent representatives across the nation to re-iterate that and listen, for several years, to the truths all these victims and their families had to tell. Finally, there was reconciliation - with the government, which wanted to set things right.

No so for that church. In that church today, in this country, you wont find any Indigenous people of those generations or their friends either. The judgment has been passed.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Some might think newer generations wont have heard anything about it or care, being out of sight, outta mind. Well, if the Holocaust is any example, I sincerely doubt that. It's pretty hard to bury the worst disasters in human history.

You may forgive if you wish but WE will never forget.
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briansmythe
briansmythe: I wasnt talking about ISIS but I suppose it fits the bill same thing kill heratics its just that they seem to have Infiltrated my country , they target kids in Mosques and give em guns in said Mosque and the Imrans know nothing about it even tho there regulars, Kinda like Sargent Shaultz , I know nothing As for the perfect word of God, Don't think so , any way leave it up to the police to monitor them
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Don't you have your own topic for that?
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S W l N E
S W l N E: Excuse brian, Zanjan and participants of this thread. He has an aversion towards muslims, proper english and keeping proper hygiene.
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Say Yes to SSM
(Post deleted by Say Yes to SSM 6 years ago)
shadowline
shadowline: "I'm not sure what additional acts there are but that's the list I'm aware of."

I'm not sure even a single one of your charges is anything other than unfounded libel. I am sure that if that's what they are, you'd post them anyway.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Some items on Swine's list are historical facts. It's a smutty record.

Traditionally, the church, as an institution, is immune from criminal prosecution and law suits because it's a type of government (it has its own laws and courts). While wrong-doing is attributed to the individual only, that individual *should* be disciplined under the law.

That you can't sue a government doesn't mean the government can't say it's sorry for its decisions/actions/breeches of trust, no matter how many hundreds of years of persistent pressure it takes to do that. It happens occasionally with civil governments.

However, I don't recall the church ever apologizing to anybody for anything. The Catholic church has arranged private, out of court settlements to church members (for breech of trust by its clergy). If throwing money at people heals genuine PTSD, well, that would be nice. I don't see any evidence of it; then again, I don't think that was the aim.

Only recently has the church admitted that a member who commits a crime should be reported to authorities and prosecuted under civil law as well as disciplined under church law - double whammy.
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S W l N E
S W l N E:
shadowline: "I'm not sure even a single one of your charges is anything other than unfounded libel. I am sure that if that's what they are, you'd post them anyway."

If you deny that any of those on the list posted are true then openly state it and we can all have a discussion in lieu of being a passively aggressive ignoramus.

If you are personally ignorant on the role played in the genocide then I'll be happy to insight you, if you're just trolling then your trolling is noted.

(Edited by S W l N E)
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Nicotina
Nicotina: Residential Schools were run in Canada by the government, many administered by The Catholic Church from as early as the 1830's to 1990's. 150,000 children were placed in these so called schools with over 6,000 children dying while attending.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission included a demand for a formal apology from the Pope to residential school survivors among the 94 recommendations in its report on the dark chapter in Canadian history.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is expected to ask Pope Francis to issue a formal apology for the role of the Catholic Church in the residential school system during a one-on-one meeting with the Pope when he visits Vatican City on May 29. The formal apology to be given on Canadian soil.





Sites that document Indian Residential Schools
- http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100015576/1100100015577
- http://wherearethechildren.ca/en/
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Nicotina
Nicotina: I do not know how shadowline could claim that the atrocities committed at Indian Residential Schools in Canada are "unfounded libel".
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shadowline
shadowline: Because he said nothing whatever about "atrocities" committed at Indian Residential Schools in Canada. C'mon, Nico. You can read better than that.
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shadowline
shadowline: Forgive my rhetorical style, Swine. But "discussion" won't prove anything.

If you can simply substantiate the unfounded charges you made about the Catholic Church's role in causing genocide in Rwanda by citing the sources of your information, I will give them my attention, and thank you.

Your charges look like a conflation of exaggeration and sheer fabrication to me. It would be easy to demonstrate that they are not that.
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S W l N E
S W l N E:
You don't need to be condescending and arrogant about your ignorance.

When you are ignorant of a situation or event, shadowline, the very basic and intelligent thing to do is ask for clarification and yes a discussion will aid you in understanding a topic that you have no prior knowledge on.

I see nothing rhetorical in your writing or a meaningful contribution or point being made either.

Your attention isn't sought after here. You're dismissed.
(Edited by S W l N E)
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S W l N E
S W l N E:
Now, to any future reader who may be unaware of what the pope is asking forgiveness for, you may peruse the following or look into your own personal research :


The initial post was based on the then recent statement by Pope Francis in asking for forgiveness for the Catholic church's role in the Rwanda genocide.

Pope Francis has asked for forgiveness for the Catholic church’s role in the 1994 Rwandan genocide. The “sins and failings of the church and its members” had “disfigured the face” of Catholicism, he said. [1]

This has not been the first plead for forgiveness. [2]

The role played to my knowledge are as followers:

1. Inciting hatred towards the ethnic groups.

"The statement acknowledged that church members planned, aided and carried out the genocide, in which more than 800,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed by Hutu extremists." [2] & [3]


2. Direct slaughtering and raping by not only its members but leaders within the church.

"As critics of Rwanda's churches have pointed out, not only did church buildings become the sites of massacres, but most of the killers were Christian, and even some pastors and priests participated in the slaughter." [5]


3. Siding with the Hutu elites and even aid in the implementation of policies to discriminate against the Tutsis.

"Archbishop Vincent Nsengiyumva was so closely attached to the Hutu power structure that for nearly 15 years he sat in the ruling party's central committee as it implemented the policies of discrimination and demonisation that laid the ground for genocide." [7]


4. Aided in planning the genocide. [2] & [3]


5. Resist efforts to acknowledge involvement.

"A government statement released on the message of Rwandan Catholic bishops reads that instead of a genuine apology, the church is playing innocent and taking it as a negligible event." [6]

"For two decades, the Vatican has maintained that, while individual clergy were guilty of terrible crimes, the church as an institution bears no responsibility. The Holy See would prefer the world to focus on the more than 200 priests and nuns killed in the genocide. But, while there is no doubt there were courageous members of the clergy, many Tutsi survivors regard the church as allied with the killers and culpability as beginning at the very top of the Catholic hierarchy in Rwanda." [7]


6. While the Vatican stated through the years that the actions were not of the church but done by individuals of the church and bore no responsibility, a network helped the priests and nuns evade justice by transferring them to Europe.

"After the genocide, a network of clergy and church organisations brought priests and nuns with blood on their hands in Rwanda to Europe and sheltered them. They included Father Athanase Seromba who ordered the bulldozing of his church with 2,000 Tutsis inside and had the survivors shot. Catholic monks helped him get to Italy, change his name and become a parish priest in Florence.

After Seromba was exposed, the international tribunal's chief prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, accused the Vatican of obstructing his extradition to face trial. The Holy See told her the priest was "doing good works" in Italy. Another Rwanda priest taken on in Italy is facing charges of overseeing the massacre of disabled Tutsi children." [7]

"The protestors – some of them genocide survivors, others French people married to Rwandans – called on the Roman Catholic church to distance itself from Father Wenceslas by stripping him of his position...The curate in Gisors, Father Michel Moran, would not have any of it. He organised a vigorous defence of the priest, including a de facto trial by parishioners who listened to carefully selected witnesses and then declared Father Wenceslas to be innocent...Accusations that the Catholic leadership acted as apologists for the génocidaire have been buttressed by the involvement of a network of church organisations, from monasteries to missionaries, in helping priests accused of murder in Rwanda to evade justice. Some were hidden away in Europe, taken on under false names as parish priests. Others are in plain sight, including Father Wenceslas." [8]

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References:

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/20/pope-francis-asks-for-forgiveness-for-churchs-role-in-rwanda-genocide

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/21/rwanda-genocide-catholic-church-sorry-for-role-of-priests-and-nuns-in-killings

[3] https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/rwanda/Geno1-3-10.htm

[4] http://www.dw.com/en/catholic-church-in-rwanda-apologizes-for-role-in-genocide/a-36471020

[5] http://home.sandiego.edu/~jmwilliams/longmanonchurchandgenocideinrwanda.pdf

[6] http://www.africanews.com/2016/11/24/vatican-should-apologise-not-local-bishops-rwanda//

[7] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/catholic-church-apologise-failure-rwanda-genocide-vatican

[8] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/07/rwanda-genocide-20-years-priests-catholic-church


Additional Recommended Readings:

https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/posts/the-catholic-church-bears-guilt-for-the-horrors-of-the-rwandan-genocide

http://proof.nationalgeographic.com/2014/04/02/revisiting-the-rwandan-genocide-how-churches-became-death-traps/
______________________


As I said, I'm not sure what additional acts there are but that's the list I'm aware of. Perhaps there are more atrocities.

My question continues: In light of Pope Francis/ the Catholic Church's long awaited acknowledgement and plead for forgiveness, is your verdict: Forgiven or Not Forgiven?
(Edited by S W l N E)
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shadowline
(Post deleted by S W l N E 6 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Sometimes, "sorry" isn't enough. We're not a Catholic confession booth. If saying 10 hail Mary's cleaned the slate, it would have stayed clean.
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S W l N E
S W l N E:
As I said, you're dismissed, shadowline. You can take your leave.

This isn't an issue to be flippant or childish about.


(Edited by S W l N E)
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