Anyone Prefer Scripture over Poetry?

Metaverseguy: Religion requires complete dedication to the holy books. So you're supposed to read new verses everyday. They even have plans set up to read through the entire books in a year.

You ever read these books though? They are terrible. Obviously they are more concerned with getting obedient followers than actually making entertaining verses to read.

It's not like reading TS Eliot or Thoreau or Tolkien or anything. These stories are mostly bland, or horror stories trying to frighten people into obedience. If anything it's like reading Poe.

chronology: Just seems like these 'holy books' are not for you Java. Be it the bible, or Koran or Talmude, they just inspire no interest all in you.

Religious psychos can drag any text out of their 'holy books' to justify anything. I remember some air crash survivors saying they ate the dead bodies of other crash victims after getting the idea from the bible. Some religious child molesters tell their tiny victims that 'god has commanded they obey their parents' then go on to sexually abuse the children. Nice people.

Metaverseguy: I just downloaded a collection of poems on my kindle that are said to be the best poems written in the English language over the last 800 years (not sure why they restricted it to this), and they even pulled some middle English poems. So I could see how someone would want to relax reading this in the evening before bed with tea or apple cider.

I've read many holy books from the bible, to the Quran, and others, mainly for understanding. It's a lot easier to just go online, or get another book that summarizes key points than reading hundreds of pages of repetitive jargon though. You can't relax and unwind reading these books. No one sits down with a cup of tea before bedtime and is soothed into sleep by reading how Allah wants to destroy all infidels, and conquer the world through Islam. It just doesn't fit. It's like putting a square peg into a round hole.

Zanjan: "You ever read these books though?"

Yes, all of them. Depends on which book one is reading - none are intended to be entertaining.

In the very ancient scriptures, a few verses and even the odd phrase or two stand out as being the most beautiful of arrangements and these are quite stirring to the soul.

Generally, the problem is translation of small, antiquated languages into larger, more complex languages. Rhyming doesn't translate to other languages. Ancient scriptures were sung; modern scriptures are read and uttered.

The more recent the scripture, the better the quality. Poetry isn't confined to "Poems"; it also includes "Prose", which is a thoughtful address, bearing literary greatness.

Zanjan: If you want to achieve relaxation and soothing of the soul, get a compilation of scriptural verses with that as its theme. There are millions of these out there, from little booklets to thick hard covers. If you search carefully, you can find publications that contain extracts, addressing a specific subject, from the scriptures of all the worlds religions across the board, even folk religions.

Zanjan: Some poetry is just an idle collection of pretty words or turn of phrase without a shred of wisdom. Personally, I don't need someone to tell me what a tree looks like but a blind person would. Scripture performs that service - what do spiritual virtues look and feel like?

Seems to me, one should have a good balance of daily readings, if only for 3 minutes of your time, from anything that's meaningful and informative.

Metaverseguy: You're like the biggest supporter of religion. As information advances people become less religious and I can't wait til every damn person is criticizing these stupid books. I'd rather have a mini-library and video game room on ever corner than some damn church, or mosque, or synagogue, or temple or whatever.

Zanjan: Throwing the baby out with the bathwater will only get you an empty tub. That makes it impossible to carry on an intellectual conversation with others. One is confined to idle talk.

This is the reason certain people hanging out together forbid everyone in their group to speak of politics or religion - they don't know how so they always end up in fights. None of them have any experience and they wont get it by avoidance!

Zanjan: " As information advances people become less religious"

Those are the individuals who don't have the information that others have. Reminds me of sports fans who cheer "We beat em! We won!" No, you had nothing to do with it, you armchair blokes. Most of you can't throw a ball further than you can spit.

Metaverseguy: Throwing the baby out with the bath water just means that there is something good about religion and there really isn't. The only thing good about it is that it forces people to get together and talk, except the book is so full of errors the strongest ritual that comes with religion isn't praying, but "faith".

Poetry isn't just analyzing nature. It's making politics humorous. It's philosophy. It's talking about hardships. I'd prefer to read this than try and understand the moral from a bald wizard who gets a bear to maul 30 children to death who mocked his bald head.

Christianity used to be about helping others. Now you see people protesting gay pride parades with GOD HATES FAGS signs and that is Christianity. That's actually the only and strongest one of their beliefs just not liking gay people. Sure if you're Catholic the Vatican says a lot of progressive stuff, but for whatever reason they are against birth control pills. And it's only 1 denomination out of more than 20. I'm not really specifically talking about religion though I just meant their holy books in general. They really aren't meant to be read alone. You're supposed to attend some type of service and hear the verses. For hundreds of years it was even forbidden to print these books, or read them if you weren't a priest.

Zanjan: "just means there is something good about religion and there really isn't."

I recall it brought mankind a long way from the cave man state. Naturally, you'll claim that was auto-advancement, as if development and progress were things that a species experiences without thinking because its encoded in their genes.

If that were true, there wouldn't still be barbarians to this very day. Evolution affects a whole species with the former version being replaced - that takes millions of years, not a few thousand. Social evolution, on the other hand, is very fast by comparison - about two to three generations....cultural evolution takes longer, more like 300 years.

A species doesn't evolve because a couple of guys headed out of the village to find new women. It evolves because two intelligent guys kept talking and walking without looking back, leaving a trail of impressed but dumbfounded individuals behind.

" For hundreds of years it was even forbidden to print these books, or read them if you weren't a priest. "

Yes, that's true of all old religious communities with literate members; however, there has never been anything in scriptures to forbid it.

The fault lies partly with the jealous controlling clergy, which had forbidden their members to investigate other religions, lest they become informed and convert. That was further supported by over-protective parental fears for their impressionable young offspring. The ancients couldn't handle diversity very well; neither do modern day barbarians.

Zanjan: "the book is so full of errors"

Which book is that? Are you speaking of errors in poetry? If so, remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"Poetry isn't just analyzing nature. It's making politics humorous. It's philosophy. It's talking about hardship"

I get the humor - scriptures convey it in a subtle form; whereas, moderns leave analysis of physical nature to scientific illustration. We read scriptures to learn where we came from and why it took so long.

Where do you think philosophy comes from? I'd say it's from those who've preferred to live their own hardships instead of reading about them; nevertheless, those who've suffered the most have the best appreciation of sorrowful poetry.

We all have opinions on what Christians or any other religious groups are doing today. Scriptures don't talk about that - they merely predict that, unlike early believers, members living in the far future will be a lot different, which incurs God's fierce judgment on them for not responding to His call to return to Him.

You can see for yourself who hasn't returned; they don't need us to rub salt in the wound......a little taste on the tip of the tongue is plenty.

Has God ever said scriptures aren't meant to be read alone???

Metaverseguy: It seems I can't talk about holy books without talking about religion. I wasn't singling out Christianity they are all stupid and I'm not going to continue an argument I've had a million times.

Zanjan: So, basically, you can't talk about history, eh.......a huge part of human history.

I don't think anyone expects a person to critique a Holy Book - a few verses, yes, but never from the perspective of modern day thought. One has to put themselves back in the time machine, transported to location, and understand the conditions of society as they were occurring. Otherwise, you'll have severe problems with comprehension.

For example, you'll read a verse where Christ says forgive, forgive without end. There is no explanation included. I find this unsatisfactory because, taken at face value, it flies in the face of the application of divine Justice. Naturally, I'm forced to examine that and ask a few questions:

1. Has this particular statement been corrupted through translation, omission or tampering?
2. Was there some "unwritten" understanding in that culture that's lost to us through antiquity?
3. Is there another NT verse to cross check that would balance this out?

Scriptures are intended to make you think: what I conclude from that depends on how much research I'm willing to put into it. If we were all spiritual enough, we'd know the answer simply through our acquired divine virtues. Since this isn't the case for many people, they need to derive enlightenment from other scriptures.

More recent scripture has shed some light on that: God has said that He will no longer forgive any man's injustice. Period. So, it looks like there IS a line one can't cross. Some things are unforgivable today but used to be forgivable back then.

I suppose it was much like the young child who hasn't yet learned to mind all his manners. The child needs to forgive because he can't yet see the motive, reason or outcome of the offensive action. Later, he will; in the meantime, he shouldn't obsess over it.

Metaverseguy: Religion flies people into buildings. Science flies people to the moon. Don't forget that.

Zanjan: Cute. However, it's more important to learn the difference between political ideology and religious lifestyle - those who don't know are the people who jump off buildings.

Zanjan: I have no problem with science or religion - they go hand in hand in the pursuit of truth. One without the other is nothing but superstition and fantasy.

Obviously, there's whimsical science and whimsical poetry - they provide to those who have no imagination of their own. Both lack vision to be prophets of the future.

Zanjan: Just the other day, I heard someone reciting an old poem, written by a Raja (King/ Emperor of India) who was greatly interested in the most current world knowledge. I only heard the last part of the poem, which ended with "English must be the language of mankind".

Stunning declaration for the time (early 19th century). Now I want to read the whole poem for myself to see what else this author knew. I've already done Nostradamus.

chronology: Zane. Oscar Wild made what seemed an odd prediction in the 19th century. He said the 'United States will have the most influence on how Ireland develops in the future not England ' which seemed an odd comment to make at the time.

But if you look at Bill Clinton and his successful peace plan in Ireland and all these Irish American groups, it really does seem Oscar was correct.

Zanjan: Meh..........the USA has been spreading its influence over the whole planet for at least 150 years; Ireland was a speck in its sweep. The Irish landed in N. America by the boatload in the mid 19th century due to the Irish potato famine. I can predict who will be responsible for the next major flux in oil prices too.

By the way, Oscar died young and penniless - I bet more than a few people predicted that.

chronology: Like in another thread we could ask whose 'fault' was it Oscar died in Paris 'young and broke' . He never seemed to see the risk is sueing a man for Libel when he was living a debauched life with dozens of young male prostitutes all over London. . Roman Polanski was amazed when he was arrested for enjoying sex with a 14 year old girl, thousands of older men were wining and dining L.A. teen girls and enjoying carefree sex with them, so Mr Polanski never thought he would be arrested, ;why me' > is probably what he said. Oscar probably said the same. But few other men left their hotel bedroom doors open like Oscar did with his naked boyfriends sleeping like 'sweet Adonis' in full view of cleaning staff and passers by. When one cleaner was asked if she saw the young man in bed the day before she replied 'no there was a different man in Mr Wild's bed the day before' . Poor Oscar was asking for trouble Zan.

Zanjan: That's pretty much the story of most rock stars - too much privilege and accessibility makes for de-sensitization, which increases thirst for thrills.

Metaverseguy: I read his 'Portrait of Dorian Grey' play/novel. I could see how 19th century Britain would be offended by it.This still at the time when England considered highest power in the world, and slowly losing their colonies. A few of his clever quotes and whims still amused me though. You don't see that too often, for novels to still keep their satire and humor over 100 years. This is the problem with many translations people talked so differently 500 or even 1,000 years ago they not only have to translate but "modernize" the books to speak to us how we would understand today.

Zanjan: That's true yet think how that meddling would utterly destroy the works of Shakespeare! Better for us to learn the antiquated language if we intend to read it or hear a recital. Beowulf, naw - too ancient for me to slog through - I'm fine with the movie.

Narrative poetry is always taken from real people's lives - you don't see that anymore.

chronology: Translations are important, as important in fact the actual author of a book. 'Don Quixote for example (now why on earth do I think of 'Don Quixote when responding to a comment by Zan? ) was lost to Europe for a hundred years or more because the first translations into English were so bad they ruined the books effect on the reader.

It was only after a correct translation from the Spanish into English that the book was appreciated for the classic it is in the English speaking world.

Zanjan: Hmm.....I'm not sure why but every time someone mentions Don Quixote, I think of chicken mole, one of my favourite dishes, invented by Mexican nuns to please a visiting priest.

It doesn't compute. I mean, if that had triggered the thought of Hildalgo instead, it would make perfect horse sense.